M10

[jlindstrom]

OK. I didn't want to write the above, but I was asked.

Hi Chris & thanks for the explanation. While most of the issues you mentioned are meaningless to me, I can see where you’re coming from.

The framelines are definitely something I could appreciate as well. Though I was/am under the impression you could ask Leica service to sort it out for you. At least they used to be able to mask out extra frame lines - one or the other out of each pair.

Some of the other things are definitely fixable by firmware. Though there’s no guarantee, I’d suggest following up on Jono’s advice & contacting Leica with suggestions on how to fix them. Some are design choices, as adding buttons isn’t plausible... but I suspect getting even some of those issues fixed, would make you a happy (at least happier) camper.

I also shoot manual everything, but my habit is using shutter speed dial fo exposure compensation. In essence I’ve never learned to use ”permanent” ev comp, but rather just expose more or less vs. meter suggestion per feeling on the spot. Granted, sometimes results aren’t as uniform as they would be with your method.

I suppose one could think my method as workaround, but it’s actually the way I’ve always done it.

Most of the things you mention, as single issues, would be somewhat minor things - but when they pile up, I can understand your frustration. Hopefully some of these things will be fixed in a future update.

Just as a quick idea, have you tried out the SL with M lenses? From what I’ve understood, it would sort out some of these issues. And it’s a ttl system, so no frame lines & accurate framing is guaranteed. Would still remain a pretty compact system and you could enjoy your M lenses.

 

[Vivek]

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/62366-fun-m-10-a.html#post749254

Hi Chris,

What you want on a rangefinder camera I have no interest in and in fact I think a rangefinder might not be the right tool for what you need. I would recommend a view camera, a spot meter and learn the zone system for the way you work.

 

[airfrogusmc]

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/62366-fun-m-10-a.html#post749254

So what does that mean? I can post links to zone system photos by Adams to show zone system large format. Still doesn't change that fact that a rangefinder can be used for anything but it shines at things like that are fast and spontaneous. If I were to do color digital landscapes I would probably be shooting with 8X10 color negs or medium format color. Digital, Phase or Hasselblad. B&W landscapes would be 4X5 or 8X10 zones system.

BTW you are showing something that kinda disputes you OP.

 

[Vivek]

Airfrogusmc, read and understand the details provided by Vieri (especially the part about the Grad filters. They were not available to Mr. Adams, IIRC).


He is a superb photographer, no doubt. It is a pity that his workshops in Turkey are on hold.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Adams had the zone system. He didn't need those kind of filters. I had a couple of semesters of it in college and yep I did all the tests. It is a system to pre visualize where the photographer wants their tones (B&W) to fall in a scene and a way to consistently control that through exposure, negative development and printing. In Adams case the scene rarely looked the way he recorded it. As he said "it's what I see in my minds eye" which usually was different from reality. Still don't change the fact that a rangefinder might not be the best tool for landscapes though it is capable. And so he does workshops? There are many photographers that do. I have taught part time at a local college. I actually have a book that is almost finished.

Three books you might want to read by Adams
The Camera
The Negative
The Print

 

[Vivek]

Airfrogusmc,

Good to know that you know Mr. Adams’ woks. Be aware that you may not be the only one.

You have the right remain in whatever century you choose.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Airfrogusmc,

Good to know that you know Mr. Adams’ woks. Be aware that you may not be the only one.

You have the right remain in whatever century you choose.

Ok but what does any of this prove in regards how insufficiant the M 10 is (your original post)?

I think with the post to other link(Vieri) you have yourself shown that the M 10 is a perfectly capable camera for even things like landscapes though I don't feel that is its real strength and it wouldn't be my first choice for that the of work.

 

[Shashin]

Airfrogusmc, read and understand the details provided by Vieri (especially the part about the Grad filters. They were not available to Mr. Adams, IIRC).


He is a superb photographer, no doubt. It is a pity that his workshops in Turkey are on hold.

Henri Cartier Bresson did not have a Sony RX1R II available to him and yet he was able to take plenty of images that had no second chance. There is a whole history of photographers being able to transcend the limits of their equipment to make successful images. Your faith in your camera is touching, but not very relevant.

As as someone that has far more experience than you in landscape photography, ND grad filters are not a requirement. And I have worked with camera with lower DoX mark scores than the M10. In fact, I still do. There is nothing in Vieri's image that would suggest an ND grad is necessary. Naturally, the skill of the photographer is more important than the equipment--and the consistently high-quality of Vieri's work shows that he is making those images, not the camera. I am sure if he did not have a ND Grad in his bag, he still would have made a beautiful image.

Posting an image is not really proof of anything except an image was taken. There is no information about the original conditions, so nothing about scene contrast can be known by the results. While DxO mark scores gives insights into the performance of a sensor, it does not say whether the resulting image will be pleasing. I know this is really confusing for "gearheads," but you can actually make a really successful image when the DR of the camera is less than the scene contrast. However, it does take the skill of the photographer (not available at stores, batteries not included, some assembly required).

 

[Shashin]

Airfrogusmc,

Good to know that you know Mr. Adams’ woks. Be aware that you may not be the only one.

You have the right remain in whatever century you choose.

Good, then you know that Zone System has an 11EV range for the exposure zones. That seemed to be very successful for landscape photographers. DxO Mark gives the DR of the M10 as 13.3EV, which exceeds the number of exposure zones.

 

[Chris C]

Hi Chris,
..... a rangefinder might not be the right tool for what you need. I would recommend a view camera, a spot meter and learn the zone system for the way you work.

Hmmmm. I must not bite. I must not bite............ What I need is what the M10 delivers. What I don't need is poor design decisions made by Leica which get in my way as a photographer sensitive to visual intrusion. What I have is years of film view camera work behind me, and decades of extensive roll-film rangefinder work at a high level using Koni-Omega 6x7, Plaubel Makina 6x7, Fuji 6x4.5 and 6x9, Mamiya7 6x7. I know how to spot meter; I did it for years. I know how to choose the least worst camera for how I work; I chose the M10, it was a conscious choice not a whimsy. The M10 files are very nice and what I require, in some aspects the M8 is a better functioning camera.

.............. Chris

 

[Shashin]

One of my favorite landscape cameras was/is the Mamiya 6. I really like rangefinders for everything, except perhaps reproduction work in the studio. As far as operation, I have never found the "perfect" camera. It is just a matter of getting used to the one you have. Digital cameras just added a huge layer of possibilities over what a mechanical film camera could have. I think those that learnt photography on manual cameras just did not understand the bells and whistles manufacturers put on digital cameras--if you can set exposure and focus, what more do you really need. Unfortunately, the average customer does not think like an experienced photographer. Since they actually buy more cameras, the manufacturer is going to pitch toward them.

Still, after using digital cameras, some well designed, some not, I have come to appreciate some of the flexibility. I think being able to customize the operation is great. Electronic levels are really nice, if a little inaccurate. But cameras will always be like Home Depot--they almost have what you want.

 

[Godfrey]

Hmmmm. I must not bite. I must not bite............ What I need is what the M10 delivers. What I don't need is poor design decisions made by Leica which get in my way as a photographer sensitive to visual intrusion. What I have is years of film view camera work behind me, and decades of extensive roll-film rangefinder work at a high level using Koni-Omega 6x7, Plaubel Makina 6x7, Fuji 6x4.5 and 6x9, Mamiya7 6x7. I know how to spot meter; I did it for years. I know how to choose the least worst camera for how I work; I chose the M10, it was a conscious choice not a whimsy. The M10 files are very nice and what I require, in some aspects the M8 is a better functioning camera.

That's all well and good, Chris. No harm in knowing what works for you and what doesn't, and picking the one that does.

I don't have an M10 ... I have the M-D 262. It's more basic and suits me just right.

• For a level when I'm working with a tripod, I slide one into the hotshoe. Hand-held, it's never mattered much since all the in-viewfinder levels (Olympus, Sony, Leica SL, etc etc) have some lag and often are a degree or two out until you calibrate them. They're good for when I'm being quick an/or precise (one of the reasons I have an SL). I don't normally shoot that way with an M.
• The little dot that's on in the viewfinder when I engage EC I barely notice compared to the read out of shutter and aperture, and how far on or off the nominal the meter thinks I am, which I like having (manual exposure). I hardly notice any of them when I'm not looking specifically for them.
• Framelines: well, my favorite M viewfinder is the old M4 and early M4-2 with 35, 50, 90 and 135 frame lines and .72x magnification. Just right, even if I do use a 75mm lens quite a bit ... I just know my lens' framing and frame with it ignoring the lines. Not a big deal. When I need precise, exact, accurate framing ... that's the SL. But I can live with the paired framelines ... been doing that for thirty years so they're pretty natural to my eye.
• I wish the M-D had the larger eye relief and larger total view of the M10 viewfinder. That's the nicest part. If they produced another M-D 262 with that viewfinder as an option, I'd go for it. For what I use and how I shoot, the M-D sensor is just fine.
• All the other stuff ... well, it isn't there in the M-D. No AutoISO, no LCD, no menu of options. Just a simple M to shoot with.

Life's too short to get our knickers in a twist because some machine is not quite perfect. I just find one I like that works for me, and use it however I can to make my photographs.

onwards,
G

 

[airfrogusmc]

Hmmmm. I must not bite. I must not bite............ What I need is what the M10 delivers. What I don't need is poor design decisions made by Leica which get in my way as a photographer sensitive to visual intrusion. What I have is years of film view camera work behind me, and decades of extensive roll-film rangefinder work at a high level using Koni-Omega 6x7, Plaubel Makina 6x7, Fuji 6x4.5 and 6x9, Mamiya7 6x7. I know how to spot meter; I did it for years. I know how to choose the least worst camera for how I work; I chose the M10, it was a conscious choice not a whimsy. The M10 files are very nice and what I require, in some aspects the M8 is a better functioning camera.

.............. Chris

Well thats good then and for me and the way I work the M 10 is the most intuitive of the digital Leica Ms. It is the most responsive and I personally prefer the controls and menu by far over the other digital Ms.

 

[erudolph]

<snip>...all the in-viewfinder levels (Olympus, Sony, Leica SL, etc etc) have some lag and often are a degree or two out until you calibrate them....<snip>

How do you calibrate them?

 

[Godfrey]

How do you calibrate them?

I test the in-camera level by sighting a weighted string using a tripod and a level on the camera, and using a degree wheel to measure the orientation to .5° accuracy.

• My Olympus E-M1 is off by 2° when the camera is restored to its defaults, it has an option in the Utility menu that allows me to adjust the level in .2 degree increments, or something like that.
• The one in my Sony was off by 1.5° and I never did find the way to adjust it, so I never used it for precise work without an external level.
• The one in my Leica SL is exactly, perfectly on the money, by the same test. I think if it's off, Leica will adjust it for you; I don't think there's a user accessible control. I haven't needed to look for one...

Not hard to do...

 

[jonoslack]

Hi There Chris
It seems you have a perfect storm of irritations (I've heard of most of these before, usually there is a reason for them). At any rate, you do deserve a reply - these answers are as I understand things (I am not Leica's mouthpiece).

Whatever - the purpose of the M10 as I understand it was to produce a 'perfect' rangefinder camera (and one as slim as an M6) - not a perfect landscape camera, but that isn't the point - anyway if you bear in mind that the design was intended to produce a camera which was as close to the classic M3 / M6 in actual use, whilst hoping also to provide facilities for most other purposes.

It terms of the file output the M10 is more than adequate, but I find some of it's layout and functionality a regression from the M8 [which I also have]. The delete button worked perfectly on the M8, on the M10, to delete an after exposure image I often need to close the image, then open it again [press PLAY] to access the menu delete function. The M10 'delete' function is clunky compared to the M8.

The idea of the reduction to 3 buttons (from 5) was so that you could easily press them with your eye to the viewfinder (or EVF) and with gloves on - I've not had a problem with using the menu button in play mode, but maybe this is a bug (or a problem with your button?). I understand your complaint, but I reckon the 3 button interface is much nicer.

When using a tripod [yes Jono a tripod] the on camera settings
for single shot, and timed [never used the continuous setting] made it a breeze to set an M8 shot and switch to a timed release, and revert back single shot if need be. The M10 forces one into the menu for every change of single/timed exposure; this function is far worse than in the M8.

Yes - but now at least when you bring the camera to your eye for that perfect moment you don't switch the camera on to self timer in your enthusiasm . . . I understand your point, but I also understand the reason for taking it away from the on/off switch. (once again to help with fast shooting).

For 10 years I perfected manual highlight metering with the M8 using a +2 2/3 stop exposure compensation, I can't use that technique with my M10 because Leica thinks it's a good idea to have a red spot permanently blinking in the viewfinder – I find it unpleasantly disconcerting and have had to abandon M10 highlight metering.

Hmmm - I thought it was really useful to have a reminder, and I don't find it irritating at all. But we are all irritated by different things (I usually have a -2/3 exposure compensation set, but I change it often and like to have a nudge).

I understand that some users want auto settings, and that's fine, but my process is manual control and single shot. I rely on histogram guidance, and the M8
histogram wasn't exactly fantastic, but the M10's has been miniaturised to half the size of the M8's. Ten years after the M8 there's still no RGB option for those who wish to protect all channels from highlight exposure clipping. The implementation of the M10's histogram in the EVF is appalling [as noted by Lloyd Chambers but seemingly ignored by other commentators. The only way to access the EVF histogram on shutter half/press is to have the top and bottom of the viewed image obliterated with camera settings I have zero interest in seeing, I could switch them off – but then I lose all access to the live histogram. Inevitably I end up with an absurd finger dance to keep the EVF image clear of clutter, then have to switch the clutter in to get the histogram back, and then finger dance the clutter away again. Seriously Leica; that's a good idea?

Yes - well, I don't shoot that much with the EVF, and I'm even less interested in Histograms on a camera like this (even with it's rather humble 13.3 stops of DR). But if they can implement a histogram I quite agree that it should be done as well as possible.

Mention of clutter brings me to an enduring irritation; twinned framelines, eternally distracting twinned framelines. I would love an option to upgrade to
28/35/50 tramlines only; hell I might then even be more encouraged to use a 75mm [but with the EVF]. If having distracting lines were a good idea Peter Karbe and Dr. Kaufmann would have rectangles engraved on their glasses.

If they took away the 75 framelines I think I'd have a nervous collapse (my favorite lens!). However, I've been asking for single framelines for years as well, the trouble is that your solution is the only one with the current rangefinder design . . single framelines can only really be done with an electronic overlay in the rangefinder - which is pretty complicated and a completely different design option - they looked at the possibility of a hybrid viewfinder (like Fuji) but it would have to be less bright and much smaller (like the Fuji).

And lastly, but importantly. No level in the M10. A level would make my exterior tripod work easier, faster, and more accurate, I'd even use it with the EVF when hand holding. The lack of level is inexcusable.

Yes - well, again, personally I couldn't give a damn - for me level is what 'looks' level. However - I do understand that lots of people miss this. Sadly it went with the video function in a bid to make the camera thinner (which they did achieve). So it isn't a case of leaving it out of firmware - the hardware isn't available to implement it, and couldn't have been without making a fatter body (as I understand it).

OK. I didn't want to write the above, but I was asked. I really think the M10 could have been my Stradivarius, but instead Leica made a trombone. I don't like cameras, but I'm a photographer in love with photographs so I have to use a camera. When the camera gets in the way; I sometimes feel I'm a trombonist.

Well, Chris - I don't suppose that has made you feel any better about your gripes, but it might have made them seem more like considered decisions rather than bloody mindedness! I think the only thing which is really not up to scratch is the implementation of the histogram.

Enough!

Hey Jono, did you ever sort out a touring bike frame? Give my love to Cornwall.

................ Chris

Never did sort out the touring frame (sadly) and I will certainly give your love to Cornwall (down in February I think, but impending grandson may mess with that!).

All the very best
Jono

 

[Knorp]

Mmm tramlines, perhaps this year’s limited special edition ?

 

[jonoslack]

Mmm tramlines, perhaps this year’s limited special edition ?

It’s for the floaters in my eyes Bart

 

[Chris C]

Mmm tramlines, perhaps this year’s limited special edition ?

It seems that I now have predictive spelling when I post; I caught one tramline [frameline] but another got through.

I couldn't figure out how to disable predictive spelling, can anyone help?

........... Chris

 

[Knorp]

It seems that I now have predictive spelling when I post; I caught one tramline [frameline] but another got through.

I couldn't figure out how to disable predictive spelling, can anyone help?

........... Chris

Chris, not to worry - it happens to all of us at times.
And if it is of any consolation to you: it made me smile while thinking ‘crikey - he must be mighty upset by those framelines’ ...

Kind regards.