M10

[jonoslack]

Chris, not to worry - it happens to all of us at times.
And if it is of any consolation to you: it made me smile while thinking ‘crikey - he must be mighty upset by those framelines’ ...

Kind regards.

I’m ashamed to have changed my “Tramlines” to “Framelines” Sorry:facesmack:

 

[Godfrey]

I’m ashamed to have changed my “Tramlines” to “Framelines” Sorry:facesmack:

And here I thought we were discussing doubled public transit systems and all their attendant overhead wiring getting in the way ... :toocool:

G

 

[Shashin]

Leica M10: right on track.
The camera for today's commuter.

(Speaking of annoying technology, by autocorrect is in my top ten list.)

 

[algrove]

ALL cameras are not perfect and the M10 is included. That being said I got another one. Sent my A7Riii back with all its lenses as it's still not for me. My next AF camera just might be the mighty brick-the SL2?

 

[jlindstrom]

^ True. If there was a perfect camera, the companies could stop making anything else. But technology is what it is, there’s always a etter thing just around the corner.

The M10 is very capable & unique in many ways. And for many it’s the bear camera money can buy. BUT that only lasts until M11 comes and we’re back in the same discussion as to why it isn’t perfect. And someone insisting M10 is actually better and that there’s no reason for anybody upgrade... And that we should all just stop and buy a Sony instead :ROTFL:

 

[Knorp]

^ True. If there was a perfect camera, the companies could stop making anything else. But technology is what it is, there’s always a etter thing just around the corner.

The M10 is very capable & unique in many ways. And for many it’s the bear camera money can buy. BUT that only lasts until M11 comes and we’re back in the same discussion as to why it isn’t perfect. And someone insisting M10 is actually better and that there’s no reason for anybody upgrade... And that we should all just stop and buy a Sony instead :ROTFL:

Yep, it's "Groundhog day" all over, but presumably without happy ending ...

 

[Godfrey]

ALL cameras are not perfect and the M10 is included. That being said I got another one. Sent my A7Riii back with all its lenses as it's still not for me. My next AF camera just might be the mighty brick-the SL2?

I'm offended that you call my most capable camera a "mighty brick" ...

Just kidding. I love the Leica SL: it is an outstanding camera in every way that I need a camera to be. The zoom lenses are a bit on the humongous side, but the body is about the same size as my favorite film SLR (Leicaflex SL). That's not small, but it's not really that big.

^ True. If there was a perfect camera, the companies could stop making anything else. But technology is what it is, there’s always a etter thing just around the corner.

The M10 is very capable & unique in many ways. And for many it’s the best camera money can buy. BUT that only lasts until M11 comes and we’re back in the same discussion as to why it isn’t perfect. And someone insisting M10 is actually better and that there’s no reason for anybody upgrade... And that we should all just stop and buy a Sony instead :ROTFL:

I've gotten off The Hamster Wheel of Progress because the Leica M-D typ 262 and the Leica SL typ 601 are simply good enough for anything I want to do. Since I acquired both of these cameras, the number of new cameras I've even been interested in has dropped to virtual zero ...

• Hasselblad X1D : lusted for, but now just a little pip in the distant background of my mind. I love the design and concept, I can't really see that it buys me enough to warrant spending the money.
• Leica CL : very nearly bought one, but a couple of weeks shooting with the M-D daily on travel convinced me that it would just be silly to spend money for anything else.
• Light L16 : I actually put an order in for this before the SL was announced (Spring-Summer 2015), and after I had the SL and M-D I nearly requested my money back and gave up on it a couple of times. I didn't, it finally arrived in mid-December 2017 and I'm glad ... It proves an amusingly interesting and fun camera to learn and use, and the image quality is really quite nice if a bit different from a high-end single-sensor 50 MPixel camera in many many ways.

That's it. I'm really satisfied with my current equipment and am much more interested to keep working on doing photography (creating books, videos, etc) now.

G

 

[jdphoto]

Shooting film helps to alleviate the endless upgrades and might make you a better photographer.

 

[Godfrey]

Shooting film helps to alleviate the endless upgrades and might make you a better photographer.

LOL! The only reason one tends to not buy film camera upgrades today is that no one's making them any more. In the film era, most photographers I know upgraded camera to improved camera, perhaps not as quickly as with the digital cameras in the last 15 years, but every three or four years anyway. Of course, high end film cameras today have become so inexpensive compared to when they were new that many film enthusiasts have purchased many times more cameras than they actually need anyway: they're cheap, what's the problem, etc.

The only way to stop the endless upgrades is to simply be satisfied that what you have does the job and stop being interested in new gizmos. Film or digital: doesn't matter.

G

 

[ptomsu]

LOL! The only reason one tends to not buy film camera upgrades today is that no one's making them any more. In the film era, most photographers I know upgraded camera to improved camera, perhaps not as quickly as with the digital cameras in the last 15 years, but every three or four years anyway. Of course, high end film cameras today have become so inexpensive compared to when they were new that many film enthusiasts have purchased many times more cameras than they actually need anyway: they're cheap, what's the problem, etc.

The only way to stop the endless upgrades is to simply be satisfied that what you have does the job and stop being interested in new gizmos. Film or digital: doesn't matter.

G

Leica M7 for €4200.- - well if this inexpensive for you - for me it is definitely not

 

[Godfrey]

Leica M7 for €4200.- - well if this inexpensive for you - for me it is definitely not

That's a new camera from one of the most expensive, few film camera makers still producing film cameras. Of course it's expensive. It's also a model that came out in 2006 or so and hasn't changed since.

My intent in saying that film cameras are cheap is that many of what were once very expensive cameras (like my Leica R8) now go for effectively pennies in almost new, unused condition. I bought that R8*body which listed at about $2500 or so in 1997 for $199, in the box with all papers AND the winder attachment, practically unused all of it.

My point is that there is virtually no one making film cameras in successive new models with improvements any more, and there are darn few making high quality film cameras at all in the larger view. The Leica MP is still available and hasn't changed since it was introduced. They introduced the M-A ... which is essentially the M4-P revisited with the same viewfinder and internals as the MP. And Leica was always one of the more rational manufacturers, changing things in a measured, slow, incremental way.

A contrast to Nikon and Canon, who produced at least 20 new models each between 1980 and 2004, as well as both announced and silent updates on existing models (example: the FM2n was revised and updated, finally in major ways, three times from its release to end-of-life). I know folks who bought through about half of the new models from either looking for that small increment of improvement.

So the only reason that shooting film reduces how many new cameras you might buy has to do with the fact that there aren't any new film cameras with new feature updates to speak of anymore. Making new film cameras is over, a dead business, other than for a couple of traditionalist holdouts who produce them at very high prices for a very limited audience, and a couple of happy specialist folks who make entertaining inexpensive ones for niche market enthusiasts. However, there are thousands of excellent, once-expensive film cameras out there so if you want to get into getting the very best, the game is the same as if you buy into each successive generation of new digital camera.

I'm so glad I no longer play that game. Both my digital and film kits are quite stable now. In fact, I'm still editing them down, curating to just the select few that I use, get the results I want, or like for nostalgic purposes.

G

 

[jonoslack]

I'm so glad I no longer play that game. Both my digital and film kits are quite stable now. In fact, I'm still editing them down, curating to just the select few that I use, get the results I want, or like for nostalgic purposes.

G

Godfrey
a small hiatus in GAS only means that it'll come back worse (believe me, I know).
Like me, YOU ARE DOOMED

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey
a small hiatus in GAS only means that it'll come back worse (believe me, I know).
Like me, YOU ARE DOOMED

Hi Jono!

LOL ... I think not. I'm retired and no longer have the money to play with buying and selling gear so much. What I have works well enough for my purposes; to buy more or switch out to another I deliberate on for ages and usually just forget about. I haven't bought anything but incidentals (battery chargers, a filter, a backpack) in two years already (the Light L16 I'd paid for in 2015).

If I have money to spend, I'm putting it into travel mostly. I'm going to New Zealand and Australia in Sept-October this year: there's another Leica not purchased. Etc.

Who can say for sure? But I'm fairly intent on sticking to the plan.

G

 

[DezFoto]

Pretty scathing verdict:

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-m10-sensor-testes-dxomark-odd-behavior-color-dynamic-range/

Full frame camera with APS-C performance!

DXO rankings are generally worthless unless you're comparing like for like, which they were not in the link you posted. Comparing a 24mp sensor to a 42mp (A7R II) sensor is ridiculous, because when you "normalize" your images to 8mp, the one with the larger pixel count will essentially be over sampling to a greater degree than the lessor resolution sensor, so there will be more information per-pixel in the resulting file than the other sensor. This loads the results in the favour of the higher MP sensors, which is why medium format cameras dominated the DXO scores for so long. So it's unsurprising that two 24mp cameras like the M10 and A6300 have similar scores from them. DXO also puts a lot weight to the high ISO scores, which puts cameras with superior base ISO performance but poor high ISO performance at a serious disadvantage.

That being said, the M10 received the same score as the Canon 5DS R, which has 51mp and is Canon's latest and greatest. Why isn't anyone ripping into the 5DS R?

 

[DezFoto]

Good, then you know that Zone System has an 11EV range for the exposure zones. That seemed to be very successful for landscape photographers. DxO Mark gives the DR of the M10 as 13.3EV, which exceeds the number of exposure zones.

More and more dynamic range just means that people can be sloppier and sloppier with their exposures. Learning to shoot with slide film will make anyone a better photographer (as far as exposure is concerned).

I never found the M9's dynamic range limiting and it's around 11 stops as well. Besides, what's the first thing most people do to their raw files? Crank up the contrast which essentially just reducing the dynamic range of your image anyway.

 

[jonoslack]

DXO rankings are generally worthless unless you're comparing like for like, which they were not in the link you posted. Comparing a 24mp sensor to a 42mp (A7R II) sensor is ridiculous, because when you "normalize" your images to 8mp, the one with the larger pixel count will essentially be over sampling to a greater degree than the lessor resolution sensor, so there will be more information per-pixel in the resulting file than the other sensor. This loads the results in the favour of the higher MP sensors, which is why medium format cameras dominated the DXO scores for so long. So it's unsurprising that two 24mp cameras like the M10 and A6300 have similar scores from them. DXO also puts a lot weight to the high ISO scores, which puts cameras with superior base ISO performance but poor high ISO performance at a serious disadvantage.

That being said, the M10 received the same score as the Canon 5DS R, which has 51mp and is Canon's latest and greatest. Why isn't anyone ripping into the 5DS R?

Good points all
I remember reading somewhere that superior base ISO performance likely suffers when you try to push the ISO performance very high (especially with respect to gradation). You can’t have it both ways!

If that’s the case it might explain why Canon and Leica do less well than the Sony sensors used in Sony and Nikon cameras.

 

[PeterA]

Lots of really interesting information in this thread - thanks guys.

 

[ReeRay]

Godfrey
a small hiatus in GAS only means that it'll come back worse (believe me, I know).
Like me, YOU ARE DOOMED

With you there Jono. I retired 18 years ago and still can't take my foot of the GAS. But then, that's why I retired!

 

[steflaurent974]

Well, I don't own an M10. I have a M3, a film MP, a M8, M8, MM and M240. I did not feel the need for the M10 upgrades and I am very happy with my 240MP ; I also use a sony A7R. But my photographic pleasure has always been the best with a rangefinder camera. I love to handle it, to shoot with it, the beautiful tiny and performant summicron type lens.
I love technology but it never ends and when I look at some of my most beautiful film or chrome shot, I am now convinced thad "money can't buy me love" = "technology can't buy me keepers shot".
So, yes sony or whatever brand will always has a better super duper things to show us but never forget that the first goal is to make you buy something ( they know about our GAS ! ). Be free to do what you want, but you can't just rely on lab test to throw something to the bin (what about that old vintage Fender Stratocaster ?)

And by the way, I still prefer 'old world' last century artistic photo production over the today HDR type, over sunny(thanks photoshop) and many filtered faery digital landscape mood.... mater of taste.
One can continue to measure its ....hum....in lab, and let me take photos with my Leica rangefinder because I LOVE IT (no labs test for that).

Have a nice sunday and sorry for my poor english...

Stéphane.

 

[Godfrey]

With you there Jono. I retired 18 years ago and still can't take my foot of the GAS. But then, that's why I retired!

For me, it's my hand on the throttle: I haven't bought anything significant in photo gear for some time (unless you call the Lomo Instant Square significant; the Light L16 I bought in 2015, it just took three years to be delivered! ), but I just ordered a few thousand dollars worth of upgrades to my motorcycle.

And I have to stop myself from considering a new carbon fibre bicycle...

Life is too short to be fanatical about just one thing.

G