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M10

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I find this type of testing to be very helpful in understanding sensor performance . I can compare most of the cameras I use and see that the real world images ..compare well to the reports . You can easily see the penalty you are paying in using higher ISO s and where the sensor seems to run out of the “usable range “ .

Nikon does a great job in setting up their sensors to (1) perform at best in class levels at base ISO (64) and (2)yet still have outstanding performance at ISO s above 1600 . They definitely do this thru the firmware that maps the tone curve to the sensor output . Sure great shadow detail above 1600 but at the expense of compressing midtones . This is not necessarily bad as it allows the sensor to perform well in many different applications .

The M10 sensor and the firmware set by Leica is a full notch below the Nikon .....but does that matter . Most of my shooting (with the M10) is done below 1600 and ISO 400 would be a good all around setting . I find the files to be terrific and the best of any Leica except the larger S sensor . Between ISO 100 and 800 ....its difficult to see differences in the files . ISO1600 could be better and above this requires too much care in exposure to be practical for street shooting .

The conclusions presented by DxO don t match my experience and I can only assume my requirements to be be vastly difference to the author . However if you dig into the details you can learn a lot about how your camera performs .
 

daf

Member

Sometimes sensor is the key, but most often workflow is the king to make good pictures... so, just find what best suit your picture style, and adjust your techniques...
For some pictures this is mirorless, for other rangefinder, or techcam or even iphone.... whatever it is, if that make you happy that's fine :)
 
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Vivek

Guest
Outfits like DXO fail to appreciate the fact that a Leica camera devoid of IR bleeds, color shifts or an exfoliating sensor in itself is a great technological breakthrough!
 

daf

Member
Outfits like DXO fail to appreciate the fact that a Leica camera devoid of IR bleeds, color shifts or an exfoliating sensor in itself is a great technological breakthrough!
Well Dxo doesn't make great picture as we do :)
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I saw this the other day and I would take this more as a fact that APS-C sensor dynamic range performance has picked up to the point where choosing between APS-C or FF has become mostly a personal choice of dealing with larger lenses and the ability for more shallow DoF. It’s really no surprise as the Sony APS-C sensors are reaching into the 13+ stop area for DR which is comparable to what Leica and Canon sensors are pumping out. The M10 is still capable of nice end results but I agree there are more capable camera sensors for a much lower price.
 

bab

Active member
One would think that a M10 w usable ISO at 6400 would solve many issues for Leica users shooting street or activity based images. IBIS would also be prudent however it’s expensive for a manufacture to provide, test, match lenses and move the sensor back to the parked position.

What’s always been disturbing to me through the years of owning Leica systems is the 3rd party test results are always less than the marketing lead us to believe. Then comes the explanations from the Leica gurus saying OH but you don’t understand why Leica did this or that. Or Leica is not intending you to use the camera or lens in that way....ex some say always shoot wide open, others maintain at .95-1.8 you have zero chance of nailing focus.

After many Leica’s I’ve formed my own conclusions fortunately I don’t need DXO to confirm that belief. When I see a leading technicaly advanced camera capbabile of preforming to my desires I will be an investor again. Smoke and mirror days are over whether DXO or any other astute reviewer you can’t hide much these days.

Leica is a great small camera system that takes fabulous pictures sometimes as long as you don’t care about missing the moment and your satisfied with a low hit rate....which many people are that’s why it continues to flourish.
 
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Vivek

Guest
No one else seems to offer the engraving services that Leica do. This is in addition to all the unique features of Leica.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Shoot silde film professionally for decades and that won't even come close to being an issue. I shot a job for a magazine this week that was akin to street shooting and came up with stellar results at ISO 10,000 with my M10.

I find ISO 1600-6400 is practically effortless with this camera, provided you really understand light and what to do with it.
So you are exceptional skilled ......
:clap:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
...
Leica is a great small camera system that takes fabulous pictures sometimes as long as you don’t care about missing the moment and your satisfied with a low hit rate....which many people are that’s why it continues to flourish.
I also feel better to blame the camera if I dont get the shot. Now if I had a Nikon D5 ultraspeed camera and whoudnt get the shot I had a real problem. Thats why I prefer to use the Leica. With the little bonus that I like the IQ of the images I can nail (or should I say the camera can nail?)
 

airfrogusmc

Well-known member
One would think that a M10 w usable ISO at 6400 would solve many issues for Leica users shooting street or activity based images. IBIS would also be prudent however it’s expensive for a manufacture to provide, test, match lenses and move the sensor back to the parked position.

What’s always been disturbing to me through the years of owning Leica systems is the 3rd party test results are always less than the marketing lead us to believe. Then comes the explanations from the Leica gurus saying OH but you don’t understand why Leica did this or that. Or Leica is not intending you to use the camera or lens in that way....ex some say always shoot wide open, others maintain at .95-1.8 you have zero chance of nailing focus.

After many Leica’s I’ve formed my own conclusions fortunately I don’t need DXO to confirm that belief. When I see a leading technicaly advanced camera capbabile of preforming to my desires I will be an investor again. Smoke and mirror days are over whether DXO or any other astute reviewer you can’t hide much these days.

Leica is a great small camera system that takes fabulous pictures sometimes as long as you don’t care about missing the moment and your satisfied with a low hit rate....which many people are that’s why it continues to flourish.
If you learn to really shoot with a Leica rangefinder you will find it hits the moment probably better than any other camera. DoF scales and being prefocused. Having exposure preset and experience are all much faster than any auto focus and auto exposure. An interview on Leica's site from last year. 90% of my personal work and my professional work is in the moment. Nothing better for that than a rangefinder.
Click here
Spontaneous relationships - The Leica Camera Blog

The M 10 is by far my favorite color digital camera. I've had mine since July. Rocks at 3200 and 6400 ISO and it is a joy to shoot with. Also I do not hesitate to shoot at 10,000 ISO.

This was a test I did at 10,000 ISO before using it on a job.


You see some stuff over here. Most of the stuff I shot on the street was at 3200 & 6400 ISO. 13 X 19 prints are really impressive.
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/62366-fun-m-10-a.html
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
If you learn to really shoot with a Leica rangefinder you will find it hits the moment probably better than any other camera. DoF scales and being prefocused. Having exposure preset and experience are all much faster than any auto focus and auto exposure. An interview on Leica's site from last year. 90% of my personal work and my professional work is in the moment. Nothing better for that than a rangefinder.
Click here
Spontaneous relationships - The Leica Camera Blog

The M 10 is by far my favorite color digital camera. I've had mine since July. Rocks at 3200 and 6400 ISO and it is a joy to shoot with. Also I do not hesitate to shoot at 10,000 ISO.

This was a test I did at 10,000 ISO before using it on a job.


You see some stuff over here. Most of the stuff I shot on the street was at 3200 & 6400 ISO. 13 X 19 prints are really impressive.
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/62366-fun-m-10-a.html
I have to fully agree, whenever I shoot RF on any M body, it is most times far faster to achieve correct focus than even the most advanced AF system, mainly because all AF systems need some kind of sync up time with AFC to lock on the subject. Of course after a good AF system has locked on then it usually is faster than the M with manual tracking.

But there is a different style of shooting with the M and this is optimised for achieving very quick focus via the RF system - I would not try to shoot it for tracking subjects - for these a good AF-C is definitely preferable.
 

airfrogusmc

Well-known member
I have to fully agree, whenever I shoot RF on any M body, it is most times far faster to achieve correct focus than even the most advanced AF system, mainly because all AF systems need some kind of sync up time with AFC to lock on the subject. Of course after a good AF system has locked on then it usually is faster than the M with manual tracking.

But there is a different style of shooting with the M and this is optimised for achieving very quick focus via the RF system - I would not try to shoot it for tracking subjects - for these a good AF-C is definitely preferable.
I use DoF scales and with some practice (years of use) I shot with 500 C/Ms for a couple of decades and even the so called bright screens were never that so to get shots in any dark room you had use DoF scales. Modern auto focus lenses have pretty much useless scales if they have them at all. Auto focus was far to unpredictable for the way I work. I missed far more shots with auto focus than I do now. Most of the things I shoot tracking is useless because the situation happens in fractions of seconds.

But that does't change the fact that they M 10 is a true rangefinder and is a true alternative to most everything else out there. I pick up the camera and I look down and I don't have to look at a menu or turn the camera on to see my ISO, shutter speed or aperture. Most that want all the bells and whistles will never understand Leica M and that's OK. This camera is fully capable of capture anything I see or any other photographer sees. My challenge and everyone's challenge is to see. Really see.

A nice piece by Meyerowitz. The entire piece is well worth a watch but what's kind of relevant to why a rangefinder it comes about 1:30 in if you don't want to watch it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xumo7_JUeMo


But again what I find great about Leica M is they are creating cameras that are not for the masses. The MM is a true gem for B&W photographers and the new M 10 is the finest color digital camera I have ever shot with. I have shot with more formats, 135, medium and large in film both professionally and for my personal work and owned Canons and shot with and tried most digital DSLRs and many mirrorless options. I am fortunate that my photography pays for EVERYTHING in my life. I can buy whatever I need to buy to create with and I choose Leica M because it fits with the way I see and work.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Not disputing your reality but my MM is (up for sale with a new sensor) unused since my super versatile A7rII(m).

The MM is a true gem for B&W photographers and the new M 10 is the finest color digital camera I have ever shot with.
Oddly, it is the Leica "upgrade" offer (price) that pushed me to the monochrome A7RII which is far superior to Leica 24mp CMOS MM.

I am quite thankful to Leica!

Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

Sony A7rII(m), Jupiter-3 5cm f/1.5, f/1.5, The Hague​
 
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