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the monochrom - CCD vs CMOS

2WK

Member
I have the OG MM1. And I love it.
Even though:
Its a little fatter than my m6, the buffer isn't so great, and the LCD is quite low res.

Image quality is something else. Older lenses are a real treat on it. Shutter lag is next to nil.
I know looks don't matter but I think its one of the best looking modern Leica's on the block.
No logos, no dots, no huge ugly screw in place of the dot. It's the stealth bomber of M's.

I also find it amazing that it's old 18mp sensor can hang with a newer 42mp one. :cool:

My sensor has not been replaced and I missed the cut-off date for repair because well...there is nothing wrong with it...knocks on wood.
 
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Vivek

Guest
My sensor has not been replaced and I missed the cut-off date for repair because well...there is nothing wrong with it...knocks on wood.
Sorry to break it to you. It will go. A ticking time bomb.



Not to worry. €982 (per Leica) will get you a replacement though. :)
 
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I'm afraid Vivek is right. Inevitable, costly, and slow. If OP decides on an MM, it should only be one with an already-replaced sensor.

Kirk
 
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Vivek

Guest
Oh my goodness!:bugeyes: That indeed is a bargain! :clap:

I got ripped off with a price tag of €150 for just a dust up when they changed the sensor (“for free”).
 
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Vivek

Guest
1500 is the figure I had in mind but that could have been in US $ ( i assumed that the “full service” would have been extra).

You may want to check what Leica say about the M10 body in their website (magnesium alloy body) before spreading spurious information yourself and accusing me.

If you have better information on the make up of M10, tell Leica to change the information on it in their website.

It would also be good for the prospective buyers if there is information on the exfoliating sensors and any other design flaws.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Jono,

Here: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/63053-m10-2.html#post747999

You are claiming something that is not explicit on Leic’s site. May be their red dot is made with brass. Could be important.

If I dismantle a camera to replace the sensor, before putting it back, I would dust up the parts and also amke sure that the sensor is aligned properly and the focus would be right. This amounts to an extra “full service”? Hmm..


I do not think they do things deliberately (like UV/IR bleed in an M8 sensor or the exfoliating senors in the later models). They honestly just do not seem to have any idea.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I have the OG MM1. And I love it.
Even though:
Its a little fatter than my m6, the buffer isn't so great, and the LCD is quite low res.

Image quality is something else. Older lenses are a real treat on it. Shutter lag is next to nil.
I know looks don't matter but I think its one of the best looking modern Leica's on the block.
No logos, no dots, no huge ugly screw in place of the dot. It's the stealth bomber of M's.

I also find it amazing that it's old 18mp sensor can hang with a newer 42mp one. :cool:

My sensor has not been replaced and I missed the cut-off date for repair because well...there is nothing wrong with it...knocks on wood.
Hi There, I have one as well, lovely camera.
I’m only chipping in here as Vivek is scare mongering.
The sensor may be fine (some are, and it depends on lots of factors).
If it does develop the lurgi, then Leica will replace it for €980 - including a service (see the link above). . . Unless it’s less than 5 years old, in which case they’ll replace it for free.

The M9 and MM hold their value really well, and as far as I’m aware Leica are planning to carry on with this replacement for the foreseeable future.

Enjoy the camera (it’s great)
Best
Jono
 
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Vivek

Guest
The sensor may be fine (some are, and it depends on lots of factors).
What are those factors? NDA?

I ask because 2 years ago I had to go for a major surgery. Following that I was out for another year recovering. My MM was stored in a dry shelf (30% humidity) along with my lenses and other cameras. Its sensor turned to like this when I looked at about 10 months ago or so. All my other gear were just fine.



What did I do wrong? What should one do to avoid it? Enlighten us so that this will not happen to others.

Anyone can go and look at Leica's own description and find out if M10 is made of Mag-Al alloy or brass. You can not claim a camera is light weight and be made of brass. The whole of the inside is pretty much plastic (it is a digital camera, makes sense to have insulators inside than metal?). The body chassis is magnesium aluminium alloy.
 

jonoslack

Active member
What are those factors? NDA?

I ask because 2 years ago I had to go for a major surgery. Following that I was out for another year recovering. My MM was stored in a dry shelf (30% humidity) along with my lenses and other cameras. Its sensor turned to like this when I looked at about 10 months ago or so. All my other gear were just fine.


What did I do wrong? What should one do to avoid it? Enlighten us so that this will not happen to others.
You did nothing wrong Vivek and I’m really sympathetic about your surgery - and as far as I’m aware there is nothing you can do to stop it happening, but it hasn’t happened to all sensors.

However, yours was replaced free of charge, as is anyone else’s if the camera is less than 5 years old - if it’s more than 5 years old then there is a charge.

But this is not the point - my point was simply that you said it cost €1500 when it costs €982.

Anyone can go and look at Leica's own description and find out if M10 is made of Mag-Al alloy or brass. You can not claim a camera is light weight and be made of brass. The whole of the inside is pretty much plastic (it is a digital camera, makes sense to have insulators inside than metal?). The body chassis is magnesium aluminium alloy.
You said that (and I quote)
“Also, the M10 sports a mag-al alloy body and no brass.”
Whereas the website says that
“It encompasses around 1,100 single components – including 30 that have been milled from brass,”

Just like previous cameras, the chassis is made of magnesium alloy and the top and bottom plate is made of brass. Email Leica and ask them if you disagree with me.

If you look at this page you can see that the top plate is brass coloured (at least)
https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10/Details
If you look at this page you can see them pointing out that 30 components are milled from brass:
https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10/Designed-and-made-in-Germany

I have not found anything which says that the top plate specifically is brass . . But I”ve seen the forgings lined up, I’ve seen the top plate after machining and before anodising and I’ve discussed it with Leica personnel.

You made two statements which are demonstrably and relevantly wrong, and obfusticate as much as you like, that doesn’t change.
You said “No Brass” Leica say “30 components milled from brass” and I’ve seen the brass top-plates
You said “€1500” Leica say “€982”
Which also includes:

• Cleaning and overhaul of the shutter cocking mechanisms
• Cleaning and maintenance/repair of the multifunction wheel
• Cleaning of the main switch and shutter speed dial
• Adjustment of the baseplate locking system
• Refurbishment of engravings
• Renewal of the protective film on the baseplate
• Maintenance/repair of viewfinder displays”


Hardly a ‘dust up’

I understand you feel resentful and put upon by Leica, but facts are facts!

Right - I’m off to bed (feeling that this whole argument has been a waste of space )
 
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Vivek

Guest
Yeah, 30 screws made of metal! Give me a break!

You take obfuscation to a new level. It was a design flaw. They screwed up the sensor.

PS: on a second thought they might be grossly understating the metals involved. Forget brass! They are overlooking the 24K gold used in the sensor wiring, processors and such. There is a bit of copper and perhaps silver in the soldering as well! :rolleyes:
 
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Vivek

Guest
Jono, I am merely pointing out that you are literally blowing things out of proportions- of what I responded to someone posting that the M10 was a brass body (it was implied to be a bit more precise). You misinterpreted what I posted and are running away with it. Give it a break.

AFAIK, a chassis makes a body and not a logo or a top or a bottom plate or a few hinges.

It is a fact that the blue green cover glass used on the MM sensor is the wrong choice and it will deteriorate.

Design flaw and not user error.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Listen, the $€ mishap was me typing too fast on an old device.

As to the grass body. Good on you mate! You have seen things that are the envy of the world! :clap:

I am jealous!

Now, if there is a way I can get the message across about the gold wirings..may be I will photograph the Kodak sensor and try to convince the few non believers.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Well this thread became a real snooze fest pretty quickly didn't it?

From my point of view, I find myself shooting more often with my M246 than I do with my M10. I can't attest to the MM1 as I've never owned one although I did enjoy the output of my pair of M9's.
 
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DwF

New member
The Leica (CCD or CMOS) is a wonderful camera for those of us who continue to appreciate it. Whether brass or, aluminum as used on the M 262 the body is built to last well beyond the camera body of most everything else out there. Leica users pay a price for that.

My Sony RX1R II (I like this camera) by comparison has for example a battery/SD card door that is a flimsy affair. Every time I open it, I take extra care so it won't break, as I did break off a similarly constructed door years ago on an LX5. I was in the Mid-East and managed with a rubber band to hold things together til I returned home.

All of that said, I don't disparage Sony or other cameras as being less of a camera than Leica in build, or ergonomics, did I mention lack of a very good optical viewfinder/rangefinder for that matter? The cameras are what they are and all have pros and cons. Leica has no doubt struggled to keep up with it's screw-ups along the way in the digital age. Nor is Leica a huge company like Sony.

In spite of the fact that my sensor replacement took 7 mos for my MM, I think Leica are doing what they can to honor their customer base and stay afloat. After the camera came back to me I quickly got over the frustration of the Monocrom being gone for a while. If I had not met the deadline, and had to pay $1100.US for the upgrade, I'd pay it- compared to other brands, Leicas do pretty well in maintaining value. Leica's CCD M9 ME MM are are treasured cameras in spite of quirks! Why many of us feel this way should bother anyone especially those who have found camera-heaven in their Sony A series or D 800E or whatever is beyond me. But hey, what do I know?!

David
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Btw, as an ex RX1R and RX1RII owner for many many years I don't have any animosity against the camera (other than the external finder for the RX1RII which was crap and way too delicate). However, my Leicas definitely trump the Sony overall for many intangible reasons. The RX1 series are truly technically excellent and I really really loved them and if I hadn't gone back to Leica I would still be shooting them.

Eyepiece on the RX1RII was crap. I ended up doing an exhaustive web search until I found a couple of replacement eyepieces for it. (Which I still have btw - PM me if you want one).

Some cameras are like computers (Sony) and others are just simplistic tools (Leica). Right now I'm just wondering if one of my GFXs can be converted to mono as I can't afford an IQ3100 achromatic!
 

jonoslack

Active member
Well this thread became a real snooze fest pretty quickly didn't it?

From my point of view, I find myself shooting more often with my M246 that I do with my M10. I can't attest to the MM1 as I've never owned one although I did enjoy the output of my pair of M9's.
I’m sorry for my part in the snooze fest.
 

JohnBrew

Active member
To the OP. Either Monochrom will provide you with the means to make fantastic images. The rest is up to you.
 
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Vivek

Guest
It was me and my “wisdom” to blame. My apologies.

Atleast, I am happy to take away from this excahnge that I did not kill “Henry”.

Good that there is agreement that CCD or CMOS would make no difference!
 
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