ptomsu
Workshop Member
I think you gave the answer already - other brands cover obviously more what you like or need. Sell all the Leica stuff you want as long as you can make most money out of it and go where you need to go! It is NEVER TOO LATE
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Leica cl vs Sony a7iii
- Thread starter msadat
- Start date
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Couldn't agree more. When that is said, who in his right mind buys a new Sony :loco: ? My local dealer has one A9, new, open box, for $3,700 and one "like new" for $3,200. He also has a "like new" A7 II for $1,300. Used Leicas, except older M models, are hard to find, so one has no choice but buying a new one. Of the mirrorless cameras that he has for sale used, 8 are Sony, 2 Fuji and 2 Olympus, and this is pretty normal around here. Not easy being a Panasonic user looking for a used GX8 or GH5
So the sensible choice, if photography is the purpose, is buying a second hand Sony (or Fuji or Olympus).
Good point, Jorgen!
Sony's relentless release cycle makes for great deals in the second-hand market. They just made every model that only has two i's obsolete, never mind those models from a couple years back that only had one i, or no i at all! Those are positively stone-age now...
There are deals to be had for the frugal photographer.
Sony's relentless release cycle makes for great deals in the second-hand market. They just made every model that only has two i's obsolete, never mind those models from a couple years back that only had one i, or no i at all! Those are positively stone-age now...
There are deals to be had for the frugal photographer.
jonoslack
Active member
It's not better at being small when fitted with good quality lenses.
It's not better at having a minimal interface (if you like that kind of thing).
Really - the minute you try and apply a 'value' criteria with Leica then they're lost.. . . Having said that, as Jörgen so wisely points out, the same is true of Sony if you take into account cost of ownership (ie secondhand values).
But value isn't everything.
By the way - I have neither and don't want either either!
msadat
Member
jono, i love leica's but i think they are missing the point or way behind in technology when it comes to cameras. on the resale value, if u look a the leica's it is as bad or worth. the s and lenses are going for 1/4 or 1/5 of the original sale price, the m 240 is about half or less and.... so cost of ownership with leica is not any better. i think leica really needs to looks at their camera road map and somehow find a way to jump a floor or two, or may be leica like the dmr do a partnership. they need ibis, better sensors, open up the flash api so after market can support them and much much more.
In my opinion, Leica's approach is to appeal to a more traditional or purist form of photography. It's an essential part of it's lineage to film. Otherwise, they would be just another digital camera. It's precisely why so many appreciate the quality as a whole and not merely a sum of its parts or features. In regards to the M240, show me any FF digital camera that's still selling for half of its MSRP that was sold in 2012. It's all very subjective and quite personal too. Enjoy your photography with whatever inspires you.
V
Vivek
Guest
It is good to remember that cameras are tools and the better the tool better for photography.
Lack of knowledge cannot be equated to “purity”. Leica are deficient to come up with better tools, otherwise they would have and there would have been no need for special boutique editions.
Lack of knowledge cannot be equated to “purity”. Leica are deficient to come up with better tools, otherwise they would have and there would have been no need for special boutique editions.
jonoslack
Active member
I completely agree Vivek. But of course you must define “better” carefully, and you must understand that on person’s “better” might not be the same as yours (or “purity” come to that).
Interestingly, if the op’s post had used the SL instead of the CL Then it would seem much more damning.
jonoslack
Active member
But, unlike most other camera companies they’re making a profit! Fuji are too, but most of their profit is from the Instax.
The S is a small market, and whilst I agree that the M240 is about half price, it is now five years old (The M9 is also nearly half price, even though its 8 years old. as for M lenses, many are still selling at a very small discount).
But as I said before. Leica is never the value option.
In terms of what they “should do” . If they’re making profits when most other camera companies aren’t, then I guess they aren’t doing too much wrong?
jonoslack
Active member
Cameras (older ones) indeed, but S lenses . . are they really going for 1/4 price? It doesn't look like it to me, and if they are I might even jump in - could you give me some links?
best
msadat
Member
here is a link for leica s 70
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_od...ica+s+70mm.TRS0&_nkw=leica+s+70mm&_sacat=3323
that was sold on ebay range from 1500 to 2600, new one is 4400 to 5800
ChrisLivsey
New member
"Value" in digital cameras can be looked at from the POV of actual money lost, which makes Leica look less well, or as a depreciation percentage when it looks better, consider:
UK Launch price of M8 £3,000 now £1,000 lost £2,000 or 67%
UK Launch price of D200 £1,300 now £180 lost £1,120 or 86%
You can decide which was the best buy, the camera that lost you 86% of its value or the one that lost you £2,000.
Medium Format ( a broad definition ) is famous for digital value drops:
2008 Hasselblad H3DII 39 body only - £21,502.50
2017 e-bay sales around £3,000, those asking £5,000+ don't sell unless lots of extras, like a lens :grin:
To some extent that is due to the numbers being used professionally and "writtten down" on accounts. The S has had lens reliability issues and competes in a difficult, limited market the future of the line may be in doubt as unlike the M it struggles for a USP.
The brand argument reminds me of the conversation I had recently with one of our cosmetic surgeons who performs both breast reductions and enlargements. He says both patient sets are equally delighted with the results of their surgery and neither side can understand for one moment why the other alternative is ever performed.
UK Launch price of M8 £3,000 now £1,000 lost £2,000 or 67%
UK Launch price of D200 £1,300 now £180 lost £1,120 or 86%
You can decide which was the best buy, the camera that lost you 86% of its value or the one that lost you £2,000.
Medium Format ( a broad definition ) is famous for digital value drops:
2008 Hasselblad H3DII 39 body only - £21,502.50
2017 e-bay sales around £3,000, those asking £5,000+ don't sell unless lots of extras, like a lens :grin:
To some extent that is due to the numbers being used professionally and "writtten down" on accounts. The S has had lens reliability issues and competes in a difficult, limited market the future of the line may be in doubt as unlike the M it struggles for a USP.
The brand argument reminds me of the conversation I had recently with one of our cosmetic surgeons who performs both breast reductions and enlargements. He says both patient sets are equally delighted with the results of their surgery and neither side can understand for one moment why the other alternative is ever performed.
jonoslack
Active member
That isn’t 1/4 to 1/5 in my book
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
For me, there are three important aspects of cameras:
- Quality of lens, since it's the lens that produces the image.
- Quality of viewfinder, since it's the viewfinder that enables me to compose the image.
- Simplicity and logic of function. If I have to concentrate more to use a camera, I'll concentrate less on the image.
Leica in my view is a great expample of a company that has understood this. Nikon and Panasonic are good alternatives. Sony and Olympus in my view fail when it comes to simplicity and logic. With that in mind, it doesn't help much if they are cheaper. If it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me. No 14 way stabiliser will change that.
The exception from the rule is Fuji. Their sometimes quirky user interface isn't really fluid, but their image value chain, lens plus sensor or film, is fantastic. Leica, Fuji and Nikon represent important cornerstones of photography. Panasonic makes good, cheap copies and does superior video, so I use Panasonic
- Quality of lens, since it's the lens that produces the image.
- Quality of viewfinder, since it's the viewfinder that enables me to compose the image.
- Simplicity and logic of function. If I have to concentrate more to use a camera, I'll concentrate less on the image.
Leica in my view is a great expample of a company that has understood this. Nikon and Panasonic are good alternatives. Sony and Olympus in my view fail when it comes to simplicity and logic. With that in mind, it doesn't help much if they are cheaper. If it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me. No 14 way stabiliser will change that.
The exception from the rule is Fuji. Their sometimes quirky user interface isn't really fluid, but their image value chain, lens plus sensor or film, is fantastic. Leica, Fuji and Nikon represent important cornerstones of photography. Panasonic makes good, cheap copies and does superior video, so I use Panasonic
Seascape
New member
Interesting comments that have a TOTALLY strange aspect to them.
I have used Leica since 1970, then just being able to purchase a very well used early M2 with with a 50 Rigid cost me less than $200.
Today I have a very nicely maintained and serviced 1970 M4 (bought as a reflection of my start in photography), and I just love it !!
Additionally it is great for film work with my beautifully maintained 1958 50 Rigid, that is now considered one of the best performing 50's ever.
Because I always loved the performance of Leica bodies and lenses, I also have a 2013 Leica M240 that incase people don't realise, is only a 24MP sensor that produces wonderful images well beyond the 20x24 inch limit that I print to......it is also GOING NOWHERE !!
Because I primarily work in B&W (since 1970) I bought a mint Monochrome MM1, when they were being sold off because people were trading them on the then new replacement Monochrom CMOS that has 24MP.
People thought it would out perform the MM1 with just 18MP......most users now disagree !!
I don't do prints that are 40 inches wide, but done on a MM1......they are STUNNING.
So there's my Leica kit, that includes some of the finest lenses EVER produced for 35mm cameras.
BUT !!!, it doesn't end there.
Today's technology allows you to use these wonderful Leica Lenses on new compact M4/3 bodies, such as my super compact Panasonic GX850, 16MP with no AA filter, that gives wonderful results with my Leica M lenses by the use a high quality, super slim, adapter for Leica M lenses to M4/3.
SO.......EVERY LEICA LENS I own works WONDERFULLY on:
My: 1970 M4
My: 2013 M240
My: 2014 MM1 Monochrom
And now.......my super compact 2017 Panasonic GX850 !!!
OH.......BTW you may have noticed that the latest HOT camera from the Las Vegas trade show.
The Mirrorless (all my bodies are mirrorless), FUJI a7 III that is a State of the Art compact 24mp camera.......WOW !!
SO.......It looks like 24MP has now become the standard for high image quality......hand held images don't go all blurry as they used to with last years 50 MP killer cameras......interesting how my M240 is now state of the art 5 years later !!
I have used Leica since 1970, then just being able to purchase a very well used early M2 with with a 50 Rigid cost me less than $200.
Today I have a very nicely maintained and serviced 1970 M4 (bought as a reflection of my start in photography), and I just love it !!
Additionally it is great for film work with my beautifully maintained 1958 50 Rigid, that is now considered one of the best performing 50's ever.
Because I always loved the performance of Leica bodies and lenses, I also have a 2013 Leica M240 that incase people don't realise, is only a 24MP sensor that produces wonderful images well beyond the 20x24 inch limit that I print to......it is also GOING NOWHERE !!
Because I primarily work in B&W (since 1970) I bought a mint Monochrome MM1, when they were being sold off because people were trading them on the then new replacement Monochrom CMOS that has 24MP.
People thought it would out perform the MM1 with just 18MP......most users now disagree !!
I don't do prints that are 40 inches wide, but done on a MM1......they are STUNNING.
So there's my Leica kit, that includes some of the finest lenses EVER produced for 35mm cameras.
BUT !!!, it doesn't end there.
Today's technology allows you to use these wonderful Leica Lenses on new compact M4/3 bodies, such as my super compact Panasonic GX850, 16MP with no AA filter, that gives wonderful results with my Leica M lenses by the use a high quality, super slim, adapter for Leica M lenses to M4/3.
SO.......EVERY LEICA LENS I own works WONDERFULLY on:
My: 1970 M4
My: 2013 M240
My: 2014 MM1 Monochrom
And now.......my super compact 2017 Panasonic GX850 !!!
OH.......BTW you may have noticed that the latest HOT camera from the Las Vegas trade show.
The Mirrorless (all my bodies are mirrorless), FUJI a7 III that is a State of the Art compact 24mp camera.......WOW !!
SO.......It looks like 24MP has now become the standard for high image quality......hand held images don't go all blurry as they used to with last years 50 MP killer cameras......interesting how my M240 is now state of the art 5 years later !!
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If anyone is interested in the "value" of the S 70mm I suggest to take some images with the lens and look at the images rather surfing on ebay.
In regards of CL vs Sony - a camera/system is much more than the list/sum of feautures. I think this is often overseen in internet forums.
V
Vivek
Guest
Leica should not to be defended for being archaic (if you happen to like Leica that is).
I dont mean this to be true for Leica only. I just do not understand how often there are opinions based on a comparison list of features.
I believe to find out how good a system works one has to check it out, use it etc.
Viewfinderquality, reach of buttons, etc. might be much more important than 1MP more or less MP or 1/2 step better noise control etc.
For example I also believe that often there is way too much discussion about super high ISO noise vs discussing low ISO color.
For different people different things are important, and thats something neglected also quite often.
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