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Obscene....
- Thread starter rayyan
- Start date
jonoslack
Active member
I didn't think of that! Well done - will you have the blue crocodile or the grey elephant hide?
jonoslack
Active member
Rayyan
I'm not belittling your response (or disagreeing).
It's pretty obscene . . but compared to the much worse obscenities in the world - I don't think it really compares.
Same with the Leica 'see in the dark' camera - you aren't obliged to buy it.
But in the face of Syria / Trump / Cambridge Analytica / Nerve poison attacks . . .
I'd rather take the mickey on the whole.
I'm not belittling your response (or disagreeing).
It's pretty obscene . . but compared to the much worse obscenities in the world - I don't think it really compares.
Same with the Leica 'see in the dark' camera - you aren't obliged to buy it.
But in the face of Syria / Trump / Cambridge Analytica / Nerve poison attacks . . .
I'd rather take the mickey on the whole.
Mass ignorance of economics? It's called greed. It's the disparity and inequality made a million times worse and more vulgar for something so tacky and vile. One idiot spends tens of thousands on the corpse of an endangered animal while other people go hungry. Those going hungry and in in absolute need in such places see the obscenely high prices that an elephant hide fetches and they go find them selves an elephant to slaughter and start their own bag production.
Elephant skin trade is a worrying trend that is gaining momentum. People are making all sorts of things with it including jewellery and, in this case bags:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/s...n-trade-the-animals-latest-existential-threat
Do you want your children and their children to be able to enjoy these animals in the wild? Or would you rather a select few with a spare $50,000 hang one over their shoulder, the last remaining specimens of these incredibly intelligent and emotional creatures.
jonoslack
Active member
Totally agree - and the Guardian article and all . .
BUT Thorsten's article says that the elephant hide is provided from animals which died naturally in reserves, and that the proceeds go back to the reserve to help fund it . . . Of course, he could be lying, but then maybe again he isn't. Whatever you think of greed or whatever, I guess it's one's duty to find out whether the claims are true first? (as far as I'm concerned if he's lying he deserves to be skinned himself!)
Sorry - I'm not casting aspersions myself as I don't have the information . . .
Gordon Bennet - I sound like I'm defending him - but I think criticism has to be on the nail
You are right to question but wether or not it is actually legal does not mean it is right. It doesn't mean that illegal trade will be laundered off the back of "legal" trade and masqueraded as ethically sourced. It doesn't mean that it won't provide incentive for illegal poachers who see the high prices it fetches.
Lets not forget - this is an ENDANGERED animal that has become so from hunting and poaching. This is not acceptable and it's not a right in any way to encourage. If you took this bag through Africa you would likely get it confiscated at the airport. The sale of anything like this is illegal in parts of the world for very good reason.
V
Vivek
Guest
Why is he not selling skins sourced in Denmark?
There are exotic animal skins available right there-
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/15/danish-odense-zoo-dissection-lion
There are exotic animal skins available right there-
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/15/danish-odense-zoo-dissection-lion
jonoslack
Active member
Hi There
I'm not forgetting any of this - and to be honest I don't know if there is such a scheme for selling hides of naturally dead animals, or if it would be a good thing if it exists.
Just that if there is a scheme to help fund reserves then perhaps it's a good thing?
I certainly wasn't excusing him because it might be legal - only if it's actually contributing.
but hey! you must understand that I'd sooner have a hole in the head than own an elephant bag . . But ill directed criticism can sometimes be worse than none at all.
. . and is it true that the sale of elephant skin is banned? If it is then he has absolutely no excuses! (as the scheme clearly wouldn't exist!)
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
rayyan
Well-known member
Jono,
I have never bought anything that glows in the dark. But brought home a few in my younger days. We both glowed!
Of course criticism should be based on facts. How did that that work out in Iraq? Only since you interjected a subject far from your shores, and the thrust of the topic.
Of course, the proceeds from these luxury leather items will be sent to fund the preservation of these wild animals. I have no doubt. We should have more philanthropists of this vein.
And of course, there are worse obscenities around the world. But at least let’s shine a light on those that we know about, so as to be better informed. If nothing else.
You take care Jono and keep on clicking.
I have never bought anything that glows in the dark. But brought home a few in my younger days. We both glowed!
Of course criticism should be based on facts. How did that that work out in Iraq? Only since you interjected a subject far from your shores, and the thrust of the topic.
Of course, the proceeds from these luxury leather items will be sent to fund the preservation of these wild animals. I have no doubt. We should have more philanthropists of this vein.
And of course, there are worse obscenities around the world. But at least let’s shine a light on those that we know about, so as to be better informed. If nothing else.
You take care Jono and keep on clicking.
EXOTIC SKINS BANS IN CALIFORNIA WHAT SKINS ARE BANNED?
a. Current Prohibitions. "It is unlawful to import into this state for commercial purposes, to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the state, the dead body, or any part or product thereof, of any polar bear, leopard, ocelot, tiger, cheetah, jaguar, sable antelope, wolf (Canis lupus), zebra, whale, cobra, python, sea turtle, colobus monkey, kangaroo, vicuna, sea otter, free-roaming feral horse, dolphin or porpoise (Delphinidae), Spanish lynx, or ELEPHANT[," Cal. Penal Code § 653o(a), or seal, Cal. Penal Code § 653q.
i. Kangaroo. There is presently a limited exception affecting certain species of kangaroos. Cal. Penal Code § 653o(c).
b. Future Prohibitions.
i. CROCODILE AND ALLIGATOR. Commencing January 1, 2015, it shall be unlawful to import into this state for commercial purposes, to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the state, the dead body, or any part or product thereof, of any crocodile or alligator. This subdivision shall not be construed to authorize the importation or sale of any alligator or crocodilian species, or any products thereof, that are listed as endangered under the federal Endangered Species Act, or to allow the importation or sale of any alligator or crocodilian species, or any products thereof, in violation of any federal law or any international treaty to which the United States is a party. § 653o(b)
WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR VIOLATION?
a. Fine or imprisonment or both. "Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be subject to a fine of not less than one thousand dollars ($1,000) and not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) or imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed six months, or both that fine and imprisonment, for each violation." § 653o(d).
jonoslack
Active member
On the case Rayyan
I believed the argument - and perhaps I shouldn't have - now I'm really checking out!
It bothers me that this self-obesessed dandy scientologist who added "von" to his name a few years ago to appear more interesting, has taken a position where he more or less represents Leica to some naive followers. I guess Leica cannot choose their fans, but this is getting embarrassing.
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jonoslack
Active member
Ouch!
Point lands home with conviction!
Apologies for flippancy
(Although I don’t see why Leica shouldn’t make glow in the dark cameras at silly prices - no wildlife damaged and we don’t have to buy one! )
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
The market can't distinguish betweens skins from natural deaths with proceeds funding preserves and skins from poachers. It's a terrible precedent.
My ancient (pre-1900) Steinway has ivory keys. I'd never replace them with ivory, no matter where they came from.
--Matt
My ancient (pre-1900) Steinway has ivory keys. I'd never replace them with ivory, no matter where they came from.
--Matt
bab
Active member
After spending some time with Thorsten I can tell you he is obsessed or better yet addicted to bags walking down Melrose he stopped in every store that would possibly carry new or used bags. He try on every bag and say what do you think. I'd be willing to bet he has bought at least one bag per city per trip he has been on. I find it more of a collector attitude, he has a collection of camera accessories BAGS in particular. I'm not condoning the choice of hides nor do I like heavy leather for daily use, it was replaced years ago by nylon and weather resistant materials that included weight savings. However the first time I saw a Holdfast Bison bag I was floored absolutely love the big dark one I just cant justify the weight.
For me I think of it as those who are always searching for the perfect DSLR after sixty years I don't think I'll live long enough to find it. I will say though if the Lecia M had a fricking eyepiece hole the size of a Hasselblad for a viewfinder it might have gotten the award. Now with the EVF OVF are a thing of the past, like pinball machines, phone books, Pay phones, dictionary, portable CD players heck even printing a picture is becoming a thing of the past!
For me I think of it as those who are always searching for the perfect DSLR after sixty years I don't think I'll live long enough to find it. I will say though if the Lecia M had a fricking eyepiece hole the size of a Hasselblad for a viewfinder it might have gotten the award. Now with the EVF OVF are a thing of the past, like pinball machines, phone books, Pay phones, dictionary, portable CD players heck even printing a picture is becoming a thing of the past!
Frankly
New member
It's like the African big game hunters who kill a handful of animals, usually the weakest and failing, then give the meat to the locals while their license and fees are nearly the entire support to the game preserve. You may find these hunters distasteful and I concur (in the case of Elephants at least) but none the less, without these hunters the entirety of the herd would be decimated by poachers.
In terms of a luxury brand lying about sourcing I suppose it is possible but the consequences of being discovered lying would never be worth it, so I'm skeptical of their presumed guilt. I'm also going to take a leap of faith here and figure that the source leathers were very expensive to the bag makers.
I have no desire to own any exotic skins but there are still some people who want them (wealthy Chinese) and have no guilt over it. So isn't it better they buy them this way than on the Black Market?
Or could the Guardian and other Euro publications impose/enlighten the backward, less sophisticated parts of the world? Spreading the message of liberal orthodoxy to the masses, with hipster missionaries and a carefully orchestrated publicity campaign.
(Of course... admin deleted)
In terms of a luxury brand lying about sourcing I suppose it is possible but the consequences of being discovered lying would never be worth it, so I'm skeptical of their presumed guilt. I'm also going to take a leap of faith here and figure that the source leathers were very expensive to the bag makers.
I have no desire to own any exotic skins but there are still some people who want them (wealthy Chinese) and have no guilt over it. So isn't it better they buy them this way than on the Black Market?
Or could the Guardian and other Euro publications impose/enlighten the backward, less sophisticated parts of the world? Spreading the message of liberal orthodoxy to the masses, with hipster missionaries and a carefully orchestrated publicity campaign.
(Of course... admin deleted)
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First last and final warning....
If it is not about photography it doesn't belong....
As for obscenities, lets say that THIS forum's position is that if the practice is legal, no matter how distasteful, then it may continue without reproach. Further discussion to be continued on one activist site or another but not this one.
Thanks
-bob