R10 to be upgradeable?

[doug]

... why should this be an option though - I would imagine having the brightest and contrastiest viewfinder in the market would be a great point of differentiation

Because an SL-quality viewfinder is not compatible with AF. Not even the R8/R9 viewfinder is. A choice allows some to sacrifice AF for the SL viewfinder, others to sacrifice the SL- or R9-quality viewfinder for the convenience of AF.

 

[sinwen]

The paradigm of a slipt functionnalities like we find in MF (lens, body, viewfinder, back, grip with battery or without) was nearly already there with the DMR. They could have the idea of going further this path. Could they call that a paradigm ? Because it hasn't really been done in 35mm ? We shouldn't bother too much about the semantic.

Something else I read in a french photo mag is that Dr Kauffmann from ACM holding a big part of Leica, has announced during an interview there was a mysterious project beside M and R in a far less expensive category. Could it be a 4/3 system ? We should know now at PMA !

 

[Angora]

'Kina you mean?
Because the PMA has been poor regarding Leica announcements...

 

[Stuart Richardson]

AF was the paradigm shift 20 years ago...I think the next paradigm shift in photography will be to video...if not for full movie length, then for continuous capture for however long you hold down the shutter. This is where things are going with live view etc and digital movie cameras like the Red One are already doing this (60fps, 12MP, 24x14mm sensor). Photo journalism is already heading this route...looking for cameras that can do both video and stills at the same time. They are already using a lot of stills captured from video cameras for wire stories, soon they will have video stills good enough for any use. Instead of having a shutter and swinging mirror, you will have live view and the sensor will do the shutter's work...kind of like a giant digital point and shoot.
But anyway, I don't think Leica will be doing this in the R10...at least I hope not. But I do think that would be a true paradigm shift and it will happen soon enough. In the R10 I expect to see a sensor slightly larger than 24x36, probably in a different aspect that better uses the lens image circle (square or 4x5). They will likely correct for the increased vignetting with the ROM contacts. The ability to do in-camera lens corrections is something that Leica fell into with the M8 and they will probably use this expertise to do something like Hasselblad does with their digital APO correction...certainly the ROM contacts in the R system provide for more opportunity than the six bit coding in the M system.

 

[sinwen]

'Kina you mean?
Because the PMA has been poor regarding Leica announcements...

Yes PMA.

 

[Angora]

But PMA has ended.

 

[robsteve]

But PMA has ended.

I think the point he was making is we should know "now", as we should have been told at PMA and not have to wait until Photokina.

 

[robsteve]

They will likely correct for the increased vignetting with the ROM contacts. The ability to do in-camera lens corrections is something that Leica fell into with the M8 and they will probably use this expertise to do something like Hasselblad does with their digital APO correction...certainly the ROM contacts in the R system provide for more opportunity than the six bit coding in the M system.

They do this now on the DMR using ROM. Lat year I posted a test using the 19mm and the DMR. With the ROM contacts taped over there was vignetting and even slight cyan corners like the M8. With the ROM contacts working, the vignetting and cyan shift was corrected.

Here are the test images shot with the DMR and 19mm. They were an out of focus picture of my light table. The dust and dirt is on the light table, not the sensor.

 

[Angora]

I think the point he was making is we should know "now", as we should have been told at PMA and not have to wait until Photokina.

Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.

 

[robsteve]

Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.

It was my mistake. I missread the original poster. I thought he was referring to the R10.

 

[Angora]

It was my mistake. I missread the original poster. I thought he was referring to the R10.

If I remember well, the article spoke about an announcement of the R10...

But even if it was about another project, I didn't read anything else apart the M8 upgrade.

 

[Hank Graber]

I think a modular camera is a very appealing concept. However for Leica there are cost constraints. They are already at a disadvantage price wise when ordering components because the volumes are so small. Slice and dice the volumes of each component more by offering different options for the same component and prices which are already very high relative to the mass producers could be pushed beyond what is practical.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I think that is a very good point Hank. The last thing Leica needs is to make a Sinar M...a brilliant concept that no one wants, let alone afford.

Rob-- that's an interesting demonstration. I think that Leica can take it even further...I am sure they do a bit already as your demonstration shows, but I would think that they could do even more given the amount of information the ROM contacts can carry.

 

[sinwen]

Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.

No. it is in "Réponses photo" n°191 (February) page 7.
I just translated at was in the article. It seems we won't know more than that, as PMA is over now I guess we'll have to wait until Kina... just to keep us mouth dripping.

 

[David K]

Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.

 

[fotografz]

Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.

I'd have no doubt that it'll shock us all when it hits the market. If it's full frame, 20+ meg., and AF enabled why wouldn't be right up there with the Canon flagship?

Sony is showing their new flagship prototype which is full frame and over 20 meg ... with a few current Zeiss lenses in the mix (and I'll bet more to come) ... so I would think Leica has to come out with something pretty special (read "expensive") to grab enough market to keep it profitable.

I'd go $8,000. if it was up there with the Canon .... since I could finally jettison all the Canon stuff.

 

[PeterA]

The video camera with high resolution isnt' a paradigm shift either - it is already done. if you think high megaixel processing is expensive and computer power hungry now - the high resolution video offering(s) will make the practicality of the process impossible for all except those who an afford the computer processing matched to expertise and care factor and all that involves....until computer chips develop as they will ...

Anyway I value my Leica glass very highly - so i would pay more for an R10 than a canon 1dsmk111 or 4 or 5 or whatever..and like Marc - I can ditch the Canon stuff that is literally just sitting there gathering dust .

Also I care more about the qualty of the viewfinder and autofocus and focus confirmation than 35mm so called 22 megapixel - which dont mean ANYTHING compared to fat pixels I already have in MF.

If people want a modular approach then you can double the expected cost of any such camera for reasons cited above - plus double the expected troubles you are going to have and quadruple the bad service you already have the more complex a system the more guarantee you have of glitches - and then MF digi all of a sudden looks very cheap - mated to a $500 point and shoot as a second camera ...

oh and just as an aside - since I do this for a living - dont underestimate the fall out from the global slowdown currently underway on demand for professional services in the photo industry - weddings, product everything...it is going to get worse much worse before things get better..


sorry if I sound liek a wet blanket.

 

[fotografz]

The video camera with high resolution isnt' a paradigm shift either - it is already done. if you think high megaixel processing is expensive and computer power hungry now - the high resolution video offering(s) will make the practicality of the process impossible for all except those who an afford the computer processing matched to expertise and care factor and all that involves....until computer chips develop as they will ...

Anyway I value my Leica glass very highly - so i would pay more for an R10 than a canon 1dsmk111 or 4 or 5 or whatever..and like Marc - I can ditch the Canon stuff that is literally just sitting there gathering dust .

Also I care more about the qualty of the viewfinder and autofocus and focus confirmation than 35mm so called 22 megapixel - which dont mean ANYTHING compared to fat pixels I already have in MF.

If people want a modular approach then you can double the expected cost of any such camera for reasons cited above - plus double the expected troubles you are going to have and quadruple the bad service you already have the more complex a system the more guarantee you have of glitches - and then MF digi all of a sudden looks very cheap - mated to a $500 point and shoot as a second camera ...

oh and just as an aside - since I do this for a living - dont underestimate the fall out from the global slowdown currently underway on demand for professional services in the photo industry - weddings, product everything...it is going to get worse much worse before things get better..


sorry if I sound liek a wet blanket.

Not a "wet blanket" Peter ... a voice of reason and caution. I consider where I live to be a financial "national rectal thermometer", and we are in a full blown recession ... yet we don't even lead the nation in home foreclosures.

Business here sucks and photo studios are going under at a ferocious rate. My wedding business is down 50%, and the commercial work has dwindled ... with what's left relegated to a Pirana frenzy bidding war no matter how talented you are. My ad agency is also tightening its belt due to cut backs in marketing department budgets.

So, for me the R10 will have to be a somewhat bullet proof, elegant machine that relies on Leica's mechanical expertise as much as new technologies ... but not be modular. It just needs to perform the task of 35mm digital capture in a straightforward and accurate manner... leaving IQ to the lenses. I do not need all the bells and whistles of a Canon 1DsMKIII, but I need the reliability and swiftness of that camera ... in other words, do what a 35mm DSLR camera is suppose to do. I have rangefinders and Medium Format cameras to do the rest.

I can also say that no matter how seductive the siren's song, I WILL NOT be a beta tester for Leica this time. The Contax N Digital was a lesson I failed to learn, but Leica re-taught me that lesson again with the M8. This time it stuck.

 

[woodyspedden]

Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.

David

I think it is a function of your current investment in R glass. If you are enamored with the R glass, which I am, using it on a 5D simply isn't good enough. The obvious advantages of a new digital R body for use with that glass makes even a $10K price point workable if not ideal. I own everything from the 15 Elmarit to the 35-70 elmarit to the 280 4.0 and lots of focal lengths in between. So while I too wish for a $5K price I will go a fair amount higher if it performs the way i would hope. Leica won't get two chances to get this right having already gone through the DMR fiasco with Imacon so they better bring out a world class product from the get go. JMHO

Woody

 

[ptomsu]

Not a "wet blanket" Peter ... a voice of reason and caution. I consider where I live to be a financial "national rectal thermometer", and we are in a full blown recession ... yet we don't even lead the nation in home foreclosures.

Business here sucks and photo studios are going under at a ferocious rate. My wedding business is down 50%, and the commercial work has dwindled ... with what's left relegated to a Pirana frenzy bidding war no matter how talented you are. My ad agency is also tightening its belt due to cut backs in marketing department budgets.

So, for me the R10 will have to be a somewhat bullet proof, elegant machine that relies on Leica's mechanical expertise as much as new technologies ... but not be modular. It just needs to perform the task of 35mm digital capture in a straightforward and accurate manner... leaving IQ to the lenses. I do not need all the bells and whistles of a Canon 1DsMKIII, but I need the reliability and swiftness of that camera ... in other words, do what a 35mm DSLR camera is suppose to do. I have rangefinders and Medium Format cameras to do the rest.

I can also say that no matter how seductive the siren's song, I WILL NOT be a beta tester for Leica this time. The Contax N Digital was a lesson I failed to learn, but Leica re-taught me that lesson again with the M8. This time it stuck.

What you write here is actually a very important new way to see the whole DSLR market. I am what I would call ambitious amateur, who is spending (sinking) lot of money in my hobby. Well after some time you become passionate.

But what you describe is the situation of somebody who HAS to earn money with the gear and cannot play or fool around. And now reading through your lines it becomes obvious what I should have known - recession means less work and opportunities for most of us involved in this overall process - of course.

Now, I would also not trust as a professional my working tools on Leica - purely on Leica I mean. I would trust it only on the ones as Canon and Nikon (I prefer personally Nikon but this does not matter). I mean, both have products to be confident in and even if the quality is not always top, they work. At least if you jump not on their latest gear.

Leica is new in the digital game, they learned their lessons with the RF - M, but they still have to learn lot more lessons in the DSLR area, especially with AF etc. So one could assume they will hit the wall again. As they did with the M8. I wish them all the best and of course that things go smooth, but even as an ambitious amateur I will not trust them again from the beginning, as I did with the M8. What meant having all my M glass finetuned and of course coded for the M8. And I mean all of it - some 12 lenses :salute: