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Thread: R10 to be upgradeable?

  1. #1
    spylaw4
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    R10 to be upgradeable?

    The M8 news and subsequent furore (TGINAO ) must surely bode well for the R10 when it arrives. IMHO how could Leica not take the same revolutionary(?) approach?

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by spylaw4 View Post
    The M8 news and subsequent furore (TGINAO ) must surely bode well for the R10 when it arrives. IMHO how could Leica not take the same revolutionary(?) approach?
    I'm thinking the same thing

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    This is interesting for sure. Speculating a bit....it could allow the R10 to become what was originally hoped for with the DMR to some degree.....change out the sensor and electronics at some point to keep it somewhat cutting edge. This sort of concept could also impact some of the body design for "plan ahead" things that are on the horizon, but not yet being brought to market yet.

    Sorry for getting ahead of myself here, but the present process of swapping my big Canon's out every couple of years is really not all that appealing. As the body/battery and other things change "just enough" it impacts all sort of accessories ("L" brackets, flash brackets, etc.) that are geared to one specific body. Those costs must figure into the equations, even if one is able to recover some cost from sale. Truly new design and concept is fine, but the SLR/DSLR body design is pretty set, and has been for many years. Now, the most of the really important things are the sensor and electronics inside....assuming no change to lens mount ;-)

    LJ

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    ...the SLR/DSLR body design is pretty set, and has been for many years...LJ
    The rumor on the Leica users forum is that the R10 will represent a paradigm shift in SLR cameras, so designs might not be as set as they seem.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    The rumor on the Leica users forum is that the R10 will represent a paradigm shift in SLR cameras, so designs might not be as set as they seem.
    Fair enough, Doug. I was thinking more about overall form factor. There have been some attempts to alter the squarish box with the viewfinder somewhere on top, and generally held with two hands, plus having a hole to mount the lens on the front, but most have not been all that successful. If it remains a true single lens reflex design, there does not seem to be a whole lot of room to move things around all that much. A paradigm shift would be interesting to see. I have not followed the LUF lately on the R10 ideas, so not sure what folks are talking about.

    In the end, it is still going to be some kind of box with a hole for the lens to mount, some sort of mirror box and viewfinder if remaining a reflex design, a sensor mounted at what was the film plane position, and the rest of the space taken up with battery, electronics and mechanical stuff. Options to break out of the reflex design could change things up a bit, I am sure. What sorts of things are folks thinking about that moves markedly away from these sorts of physical constraints?

    LJ

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    In the end, it is still going to be some kind of box with a hole for the lens to mount, some sort of mirror box and viewfinder . . . .
    The idea of an R10 with an upgrade path is intriguing but the important thing is to get the basic form of the box really nice as a start (comfort, ergonomic, simple). Swapping out parts as an upgrade over the years may be of great benefit for customer satisfaction. I am looking forward to photokina!

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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Is there any more news about Leica products at PMA other than the M8 upgrade program?

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    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    The paradigm shift that some people expect is a move away from either 3x2 or even 4x3 to something like a 4x4 ratio sensor. You wouldn't need all those alternative shutter releases as on the DMR for starters (but aren't they darned useful!)

    The next shift for a pure Leica would be to auto-focus with the ability to use retro R lenses for focus confirmation. All plus, plus features.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    What do the latest rumors say WRT sensor size? Any chance for an oversized sensor?

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    The paradigm shift that some people expect is a move away from either 3x2 or even 4x3 to something like a 4x4 ratio sensor. You wouldn't need all those alternative shutter releases as on the DMR for starters (but aren't they darned useful!)

    The next shift for a pure Leica would be to auto-focus with the ability to use retro R lenses for focus confirmation. All plus, plus features.
    O.K., and it might be semantics, but a sensor format/size change to me is not a paradigm shift like film to digital was. I was thinking about what major approach would be different from the SLR build concept that now exists. The introduction of 2.0x, 1.6x, 1.5x, 1.3x and any other sizes are not changing the "rules" and concepts about the camera, only the format for collecting the light.

    The AF idea is also not really a paradigm shift, but it may be in the Leica world to some degree I think that is now almost a requirement for true professional level multi-use today. It may not be used by everybody, but to create a pro-level camera that PJs, sports, and other photogs would buy and use, it will be necessary, I think. Just my thinking here.

    So, a "non-conventional" sized sensor is not such a far out idea. May be tricky to build into a body, especially if going toward that 16:9 concept that we see in some digicams.

    LJ

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    I wonder if they plan to offer a trade in for DMR owners...

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I wonder if they plan to offer a trade in for DMR owners...
    Now THAT may be a paradigm shift.....especially for Leica

    LJ

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    What sorts of things are folks thinking about that moves markedly away from these sorts of physical constraints?
    My fantasy is mirror box options so that I don't have to accept AF in order to use a full-frame digital Leica. An AF mirror box for those who want it, an SL mirror box for those who prefer this viewfinder. User swappable.

    A modular camera:

    mirror box/lens mount/viewfinder
    shutter
    sensor back/electronics
    power source/card slot

    all upgradeable or swappable by the user

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    What do the latest rumors say WRT sensor size? Any chance for an oversized sensor?
    Yup. Leica has hinted at this.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    what? 90% of the cost of a camera is in the bought in chip - the notion 'upgradeable' is a marketing ploy to satisfy those who get attached to a particular ..umm what ??..aluminuim plastic covered body? which costs nothing in relative terms?? Personally i would rather see a camera whose file quality is outstanding with higher resolution than the M8ate or DMR. I would also love to see auto focus introduced as well as focus conformation for my existing lenses. A decent battery would come after that and then a large LCD hopefully o same quality as on DMR/M8ate.

    The chip should be large enough to be able to use the R wides which are outstanding without heavy vignetting . As for 'paradigm shift' it is a lay person's overused meaningless statement. Leica invented the 35mm film size and I like it and they should stick with it. if I want bigger I shoot larger format. If the resolution is high enough you can crop to whatever aspect ration suits you.

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    what? 90% of the cost of a camera is in the bought in chip - the notion 'upgradeable' is a marketing ploy to satisfy those who get attached to a particular ..umm what ??..aluminuim plastic covered body?
    It's the viewfinder I get attached to (or would like to upgrade). I'd be as happy as a clam in the mud if I could swap an SL-type viewfinder into the R8 or put the DMR back on the SL. Others might be as attached to a particular body's ergonomic design as I am to the viewfinder. IMHO a highly modularized camera could satisfy a lot more users than the take-it-or-leave-it single unit designs we now have available.

    neglecting any future upgrade path, here's how a hypothetical modular camera could be configured:

    viewfinder options: AF, SL, or R8/9
    backs: high frame rate, high ISO, high resolution, or high bit depth
    card slot: SD, CF, or dual
    battery: high capacity, or light weight
    shutter: HSS, or low noise

    I'd love to be able to configure the camera my way.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    I am happy with the R9 viewfinder Doug - if they can make it even better in a full frame - I'd be happier - why should this be an option though - I would imagine having the brightest and contrastiest viewfinder in the market would be a great point of differentiation..but with a mirror it all gets down to crop factor and chip size doesnt it?...nothing beats my H1 viewfinder for brightness and ease of use for example...

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    Super Duper
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    The paradigm shift that some people expect is a move away from either 3x2 or even 4x3 to something like a 4x4 ratio sensor. You wouldn't need all those alternative shutter releases as on the DMR for starters (but aren't they darned useful!)

    The next shift for a pure Leica would be to auto-focus with the ability to use retro R lenses for focus confirmation. All plus, plus features.
    What would really be a "shift" would be a Leica R AF body .... not lenses!!! A streamlined, modern version of the Contax AX using today's technology to accomplish it in less space. Then all the existing lenses would be "upgraded" to
    AF while retaining their optional Manual focus characteristics at the will of the user.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Well they were not saying anything about the R in our meeting at PMA other than wait until Photokina.

    However given their M8 stance, it stands to reason that whatever the newest R is, it will be another fully upgradable platform as technology advances.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Let's just hope it doesn't need an immediate update (ala M8 recall)

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    Angora
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    My fantasy is mirror box options so that I don't have to accept AF in order to use a full-frame digital Leica. An AF mirror box for those who want it, an SL mirror box for those who prefer this viewfinder. User swappable.

    A modular camera:

    mirror box/lens mount/viewfinder
    shutter
    sensor back/electronics
    power source/card slot

    all upgradeable or swappable by the user
    Yes Doug, this modular concept was also discussed on the LUF; one risk would be an offer of components which would be too broad, e.g. the consumer could get lost while trying to set its R10 à la carte.

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ... why should this be an option though - I would imagine having the brightest and contrastiest viewfinder in the market would be a great point of differentiation
    Because an SL-quality viewfinder is not compatible with AF. Not even the R8/R9 viewfinder is. A choice allows some to sacrifice AF for the SL viewfinder, others to sacrifice the SL- or R9-quality viewfinder for the convenience of AF.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    The paradigm of a slipt functionnalities like we find in MF (lens, body, viewfinder, back, grip with battery or without) was nearly already there with the DMR. They could have the idea of going further this path. Could they call that a paradigm ? Because it hasn't really been done in 35mm ? We shouldn't bother too much about the semantic.

    Something else I read in a french photo mag is that Dr Kauffmann from ACM holding a big part of Leica, has announced during an interview there was a mysterious project beside M and R in a far less expensive category. Could it be a 4/3 system ? We should know now at PMA !

  23. #23
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    'Kina you mean?
    Because the PMA has been poor regarding Leica announcements...

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    AF was the paradigm shift 20 years ago...I think the next paradigm shift in photography will be to video...if not for full movie length, then for continuous capture for however long you hold down the shutter. This is where things are going with live view etc and digital movie cameras like the Red One are already doing this (60fps, 12MP, 24x14mm sensor). Photo journalism is already heading this route...looking for cameras that can do both video and stills at the same time. They are already using a lot of stills captured from video cameras for wire stories, soon they will have video stills good enough for any use. Instead of having a shutter and swinging mirror, you will have live view and the sensor will do the shutter's work...kind of like a giant digital point and shoot.
    But anyway, I don't think Leica will be doing this in the R10...at least I hope not. But I do think that would be a true paradigm shift and it will happen soon enough. In the R10 I expect to see a sensor slightly larger than 24x36, probably in a different aspect that better uses the lens image circle (square or 4x5). They will likely correct for the increased vignetting with the ROM contacts. The ability to do in-camera lens corrections is something that Leica fell into with the M8 and they will probably use this expertise to do something like Hasselblad does with their digital APO correction...certainly the ROM contacts in the R system provide for more opportunity than the six bit coding in the M system.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angora View Post
    'Kina you mean?
    Because the PMA has been poor regarding Leica announcements...
    Yes PMA.

  26. #26
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    But PMA has ended.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angora View Post
    But PMA has ended.
    I think the point he was making is we should know "now", as we should have been told at PMA and not have to wait until Photokina.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    They will likely correct for the increased vignetting with the ROM contacts. The ability to do in-camera lens corrections is something that Leica fell into with the M8 and they will probably use this expertise to do something like Hasselblad does with their digital APO correction...certainly the ROM contacts in the R system provide for more opportunity than the six bit coding in the M system.

    They do this now on the DMR using ROM. Lat year I posted a test using the 19mm and the DMR. With the ROM contacts taped over there was vignetting and even slight cyan corners like the M8. With the ROM contacts working, the vignetting and cyan shift was corrected.

    Here are the test images shot with the DMR and 19mm. They were an out of focus picture of my light table. The dust and dirt is on the light table, not the sensor.



    Last edited by robsteve; 5th February 2008 at 14:29.

  29. #29
    Angora
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I think the point he was making is we should know "now", as we should have been told at PMA and not have to wait until Photokina.
    Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
    Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angora View Post
    Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
    Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.
    It was my mistake. I missread the original poster. I thought he was referring to the R10.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    It was my mistake. I missread the original poster. I thought he was referring to the R10.
    If I remember well, the article spoke about an announcement of the R10...

    But even if it was about another project, I didn't read anything else apart the M8 upgrade.

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    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    I think a modular camera is a very appealing concept. However for Leica there are cost constraints. They are already at a disadvantage price wise when ordering components because the volumes are so small. Slice and dice the volumes of each component more by offering different options for the same component and prices which are already very high relative to the mass producers could be pushed beyond what is practical.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    I think that is a very good point Hank. The last thing Leica needs is to make a Sinar M...a brilliant concept that no one wants, let alone afford.

    Rob-- that's an interesting demonstration. I think that Leica can take it even further...I am sure they do a bit already as your demonstration shows, but I would think that they could do even more given the amount of information the ROM contacts can carry.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angora View Post
    Oh. Unfortunately it seems that nothing has officially filtered.
    Chasseur d'Images, the magazine in question, has been fooled.
    No. it is in "Réponses photo" n°191 (February) page 7.
    I just translated at was in the article. It seems we won't know more than that, as PMA is over now I guess we'll have to wait until Kina... just to keep us mouth dripping.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.
    I'd have no doubt that it'll shock us all when it hits the market. If it's full frame, 20+ meg., and AF enabled why wouldn't be right up there with the Canon flagship?

    Sony is showing their new flagship prototype which is full frame and over 20 meg ... with a few current Zeiss lenses in the mix (and I'll bet more to come) ... so I would think Leica has to come out with something pretty special (read "expensive") to grab enough market to keep it profitable.

    I'd go $8,000. if it was up there with the Canon .... since I could finally jettison all the Canon stuff.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    The video camera with high resolution isnt' a paradigm shift either - it is already done. if you think high megaixel processing is expensive and computer power hungry now - the high resolution video offering(s) will make the practicality of the process impossible for all except those who an afford the computer processing matched to expertise and care factor and all that involves....until computer chips develop as they will ...

    Anyway I value my Leica glass very highly - so i would pay more for an R10 than a canon 1dsmk111 or 4 or 5 or whatever..and like Marc - I can ditch the Canon stuff that is literally just sitting there gathering dust .

    Also I care more about the qualty of the viewfinder and autofocus and focus confirmation than 35mm so called 22 megapixel - which dont mean ANYTHING compared to fat pixels I already have in MF.

    If people want a modular approach then you can double the expected cost of any such camera for reasons cited above - plus double the expected troubles you are going to have and quadruple the bad service you already have the more complex a system the more guarantee you have of glitches - and then MF digi all of a sudden looks very cheap - mated to a $500 point and shoot as a second camera ...

    oh and just as an aside - since I do this for a living - dont underestimate the fall out from the global slowdown currently underway on demand for professional services in the photo industry - weddings, product everything...it is going to get worse much worse before things get better..


    sorry if I sound liek a wet blanket.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The video camera with high resolution isnt' a paradigm shift either - it is already done. if you think high megaixel processing is expensive and computer power hungry now - the high resolution video offering(s) will make the practicality of the process impossible for all except those who an afford the computer processing matched to expertise and care factor and all that involves....until computer chips develop as they will ...

    Anyway I value my Leica glass very highly - so i would pay more for an R10 than a canon 1dsmk111 or 4 or 5 or whatever..and like Marc - I can ditch the Canon stuff that is literally just sitting there gathering dust .

    Also I care more about the qualty of the viewfinder and autofocus and focus confirmation than 35mm so called 22 megapixel - which dont mean ANYTHING compared to fat pixels I already have in MF.

    If people want a modular approach then you can double the expected cost of any such camera for reasons cited above - plus double the expected troubles you are going to have and quadruple the bad service you already have the more complex a system the more guarantee you have of glitches - and then MF digi all of a sudden looks very cheap - mated to a $500 point and shoot as a second camera ...

    oh and just as an aside - since I do this for a living - dont underestimate the fall out from the global slowdown currently underway on demand for professional services in the photo industry - weddings, product everything...it is going to get worse much worse before things get better..


    sorry if I sound liek a wet blanket.
    Not a "wet blanket" Peter ... a voice of reason and caution. I consider where I live to be a financial "national rectal thermometer", and we are in a full blown recession ... yet we don't even lead the nation in home foreclosures.

    Business here sucks and photo studios are going under at a ferocious rate. My wedding business is down 50%, and the commercial work has dwindled ... with what's left relegated to a Pirana frenzy bidding war no matter how talented you are. My ad agency is also tightening its belt due to cut backs in marketing department budgets.

    So, for me the R10 will have to be a somewhat bullet proof, elegant machine that relies on Leica's mechanical expertise as much as new technologies ... but not be modular. It just needs to perform the task of 35mm digital capture in a straightforward and accurate manner... leaving IQ to the lenses. I do not need all the bells and whistles of a Canon 1DsMKIII, but I need the reliability and swiftness of that camera ... in other words, do what a 35mm DSLR camera is suppose to do. I have rangefinders and Medium Format cameras to do the rest.

    I can also say that no matter how seductive the siren's song, I WILL NOT be a beta tester for Leica this time. The Contax N Digital was a lesson I failed to learn, but Leica re-taught me that lesson again with the M8. This time it stuck.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Just out of curiosity at what price point would you guys be willing to buy an R10. I've heard a second hand rumor (and we all know what that's worth) that it's going to be quite expensive. I'd like to see it in the $5k range but have a feeling it could be closer to twice that.
    David

    I think it is a function of your current investment in R glass. If you are enamored with the R glass, which I am, using it on a 5D simply isn't good enough. The obvious advantages of a new digital R body for use with that glass makes even a $10K price point workable if not ideal. I own everything from the 15 Elmarit to the 35-70 elmarit to the 280 4.0 and lots of focal lengths in between. So while I too wish for a $5K price I will go a fair amount higher if it performs the way i would hope. Leica won't get two chances to get this right having already gone through the DMR fiasco with Imacon so they better bring out a world class product from the get go. JMHO

    Woody

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not a "wet blanket" Peter ... a voice of reason and caution. I consider where I live to be a financial "national rectal thermometer", and we are in a full blown recession ... yet we don't even lead the nation in home foreclosures.

    Business here sucks and photo studios are going under at a ferocious rate. My wedding business is down 50%, and the commercial work has dwindled ... with what's left relegated to a Pirana frenzy bidding war no matter how talented you are. My ad agency is also tightening its belt due to cut backs in marketing department budgets.

    So, for me the R10 will have to be a somewhat bullet proof, elegant machine that relies on Leica's mechanical expertise as much as new technologies ... but not be modular. It just needs to perform the task of 35mm digital capture in a straightforward and accurate manner... leaving IQ to the lenses. I do not need all the bells and whistles of a Canon 1DsMKIII, but I need the reliability and swiftness of that camera ... in other words, do what a 35mm DSLR camera is suppose to do. I have rangefinders and Medium Format cameras to do the rest.

    I can also say that no matter how seductive the siren's song, I WILL NOT be a beta tester for Leica this time. The Contax N Digital was a lesson I failed to learn, but Leica re-taught me that lesson again with the M8. This time it stuck.
    What you write here is actually a very important new way to see the whole DSLR market. I am what I would call ambitious amateur, who is spending (sinking) lot of money in my hobby. Well after some time you become passionate.

    But what you describe is the situation of somebody who HAS to earn money with the gear and cannot play or fool around. And now reading through your lines it becomes obvious what I should have known - recession means less work and opportunities for most of us involved in this overall process - of course.

    Now, I would also not trust as a professional my working tools on Leica - purely on Leica I mean. I would trust it only on the ones as Canon and Nikon (I prefer personally Nikon but this does not matter). I mean, both have products to be confident in and even if the quality is not always top, they work. At least if you jump not on their latest gear.

    Leica is new in the digital game, they learned their lessons with the RF - M, but they still have to learn lot more lessons in the DSLR area, especially with AF etc. So one could assume they will hit the wall again. As they did with the M8. I wish them all the best and of course that things go smooth, but even as an ambitious amateur I will not trust them again from the beginning, as I did with the M8. What meant having all my M glass finetuned and of course coded for the M8. And I mean all of it - some 12 lenses

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    They do this now on the DMR using ROM. Lat year I posted a test using the 19mm and the DMR. With the ROM contacts taped over there was vignetting and even slight cyan corners like the M8. With the ROM contacts working, the vignetting and cyan shift was corrected.

    Here are the test images shot with the DMR and 19mm. They were an out of focus picture of my light table. The dust and dirt is on the light table, not the sensor.



    hey Rob

    I am confused! (Not unusual for me LOL). I thought the cyan corners were a function of shooting with the UV/IR filter? Since there is no filter on the R lenses is it the AA filter that is causing this behavior do you think?

    Interesting

    Woody

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    The IR filter on the sensor cover glass. It has the same function, it is just usually not as much of a problem given the fact that the light is on a much less severe angle of incidence, but it makes sense that it shows up with the 19mm, as it is so wide.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    hey Rob

    I am confused! (Not unusual for me LOL). I thought the cyan corners were a function of shooting with the UV/IR filter? Since there is no filter on the R lenses is it the AA filter that is causing this behavior do you think?

    Interesting

    Woody

    Woody:

    It is the IR filter on the sensor cover glass. Some of the other manufacturers use a IR absorbsion filter, which may not have this problem. The DMR had the IR intereference filter as part of the cover glass.

    Leica told us they were doing this correction with ROM lenses, but I never thoght to test it until I bought my M8.

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    Re: R10 to be upgradeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by sinwen View Post
    No. it is in "Réponses photo" n°191 (February) page 7.
    I just translated at was in the article. It seems we won't know more than that, as PMA is over now I guess we'll have to wait until Kina... just to keep us mouth dripping.
    My bad, yes, that was published in RP.

    In the long run we just got new... speculations.
    But who knows, maybe Mr Lee's successor will leak some more informations 'till the 'Kina.

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