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Leica CM .......June ?

glenerrolrd

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Leica Rumors is reporting that a brand new EVF camera will be introduced on June 14th . Most important ....Full Frame , New Sensor aimed at high ISO performance and new line of AF lenses .

My speculation not based on anything ......if the mount is M (why wouldn t it be ?) the body would support both legacy manual focus M mount lenses AND a new line of small AF lenses . Leica EVF have been excellent with the SL still best in class ...the Q and the CL have been close .(No worry here ). My guess is its 24MPs due to emphasis on high ISO (and probably cost ).

Two things come to mind about Leica Strategy (new CEO ) ...(1) a willingness to cannibalize the M buyers ? and (2) a focus on the consumer (verse PRO ) .
 
J

jdphoto

Well-known member
Leica's Q and CL are very successful, but with obvious shortcomings noted by most who have used them. So, it's not too surprising that they've evolved into a new camera model. I would be surprised by a new AF "M" mount. The used market for M10's would be interesting. I think most would be okay with a 50mm 1.4 Q.
 
Godfrey

Godfrey

Well-known member
I look forward to seeing what they come up with and don't bother speculating.

There's been a pretty strongly voiced desire for a full frame, M-lens compatible, EVF camera in a smaller form factor than the SL and a shape more akin to an M—an interchangeable lens Q if you will. It would certainly make sense to produce something like that with the L lens mount and include an adapter for M lenses with it.

But I'm perfectly satisfied with my Leica M-D already. There's a lot of things it can't do; I have other cameras that do those things pretty darn well. :)

G
 
glenerrolrd

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I am primarily interested in that it may provide a sense of direction to Leica s portfolio of cameras . New stuff sells ..especially at lower prices (thats relative ..less than an M10 and more than a Sony ) . My concern is that the Professional Cameras (as defined by Leica ) the S and the SL ..will be short changed as R&D money goes into a new hot consumer camera .

If I ran a Leica Store any small FF EVF camera with interchangeable lenses would be of high interest .

Its a shame as Leica is so close to MY ideal with the M,SL and S product lines . I am completely happy with the M1o and the amazing line of M lenses . Sure it would be nice to have 36-40 MP but 24 is actually enough . The SL needs a competitive sensor with 40MPs ,upgraded AF and a more complete line of prime lenses . But its pretty terrific as it is and with the R lenses ...its balanced . The S has everything I want except the MP s ...60-80 MP is required for most MF applications . The lenses are superb ,the ergonomics/weather sealing near perfect and its fast enough for anything I do . I don t even care if its over priced compared to the competition as I have a full set of lenses . :facesmack:

Unfortunately Leica will get a much better return on investment by focusing on less expensive ,consumer oriented gear .
 
Frankly

Frankly

New member
I do not see how you can fit autofocus motors onto compact M-mount lenses. I suppose anything is possible but they would probably be clunky and slow.

Not that I have a dog in this fight but it seems to me that having large (FX) and small (DX) lines of complimentary cameras with the M-line relegated off to bespoke speciality editions would generate the most revenue and keep buyers interested in expanding their systems.

If they rectified the UIs and industrial design so that I could pick up a compact DX LED-only with a pancake for my "travel light" day and also switch over to a relatively professional FX with great EVF and fast, premium glass then I could stay within the Leica eco-system for everything.

To me the S is a dead end. Leica will never have the latest and best sensors, and even when they do it will only be for a small window until they're no longer best in class. So find a way to compete without relying on the sensor quality so much.

The other thing I'd do is build one lens... a 400/2.8 for the SL or whatever FX mount they decide on, load it with autofocus motors and create a Nikon and Canon killer. Imagine a $15,000 Leica super telephoto, it would be a must have for every rich hobbyist.

The sad thing is that Leica never listens to my sage advice that I'd charge any other company megabucks for!
 
glenerrolrd

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Frankly said:
I do not see how you can fit autofocus motors onto compact M-mount lenses. I suppose anything is possible but they would probably be clunky and slow.

Not that I have a dog in this fight but it seems to me that having large (FX) and small (DX) lines of complimentary cameras with the M-line relegated off to bespoke speciality editions would generate the most revenue and keep buyers interested in expanding their systems.

If they rectified the UIs and industrial design so that I could pick up a compact DX LED-only with a pancake for my "travel light" day and also switch over to a relatively professional FX with great EVF and fast, premium glass then I could stay within the Leica eco-system for everything.

To me the S is a dead end. Leica will never have the latest and best sensors, and even when they do it will only be for a small window until they're no longer best in class. So find a way to compete without relying on the sensor quality so much.

The other thing I'd do is build one lens... a 400/2.8 for the SL or whatever FX mount they decide on, load it with autofocus motors and create a Nikon and Canon killer. Imagine a $15,000 Leica super telephoto, it would be a must have for every rich hobbyist.

The sad thing is that Leica never listens to my sage advice that I'd charge any other company megabucks for!
Click to expand...
Thanks for you insights ..I disagree for the most part .

_--Small(er) AF lenses ...quite possible as evidence by the Zeiss Batis lenses . Leica Rumors quoted 5 new AF lenses ....these could be Leica Lenses the size of the zeiss batis . Not existing M designs retrofitted to become AF . The will not be as small as some of the M lenses ..but if they limit the apertures to f2.8 ..they can be small by comparison to other AF lenses

_-Use of the M mount .....would be surprised if the name is CM and it doesn t have the ability to use the existing M lenses ..hopefully without an adapter . Yes probably manual focus ..the same way Sony used the Zeiss Loxia lenses .

_- Key design decision will be the native mount ..the betting is on the existing L mount which would require an adapter M-L ,R-L ,S-L should you have a need . I would prefer the M mount but I can see the advantage of using the L mount design .

My speculation is that the new camera will line up directly against the Sony 7 series ....Leica will advantages and disadvantages which should be obvious .

Complaining about the Leica sensors is like reading an old newspaper .....the most used Sony sensor for medium format is the 50MP which has been out now for what 5 years ? Few if any on these forums have a clue about the Leica 40mp CMOS sensor introduced in the S 007 less than 3 years ago . Personally I like the 50MP as implemented by HB and Phase but its by an insignificant amount unless you want to shoot in 4x5 or square crops . If using 2x3 or 9x16 ....the difference in usable MP is insignificant .

YES ..the 100MP sensors are in a league of their own especially when paired with the best lenses .

Leica will never compete with the PRO sports gear from Canon,Nikon or now Sony . Over the years I have photographed a lot of Sports ...using the D5 now with the Nikkor Pro telephotos . But the SL can suffice for all but the most critical AF ....Auto Tracking being the weak point . The biggest issue with shooting sports is gaining access ....and you often can not even take a Pro camera into most venues . And I chuckle at Sony s introduction of the A9 where many of the AF captures requiring auto tracking are just out of focus . Great auto tracking is beyond Leica at this point . So Leica should know their limitations . (Sorry this is mostly off topic).
 
Frankly

Frankly

New member
Yeah my Leica super tele remark is pretty out there after thinking about it for two seconds. Many people already recommended that Leica make lenses for Canon and Nikon like Zeiss back in the dark days of their downturn.

Otherwise, I'm simply confused by all the Leica mounts and would be very frustrated to have bought into one system only to find it quickly superseded by another. Adapters just seem like trouble to me.
 
M

MCTuomey

New member
One can't have a light, compact FF kit with fast AF lenses. Maybe this CM will have Batis-like, medium speed AF glass. But f/1.4? No, not physically possible in FF if you want AF and lighter weight/smaller size.

Fast M-lenses with a down-sized SL will be fairly light and compact and quite workable with its excellent MF implementation, as is the CL with adapted M-glass. And here Leica could trump Sony + Loxia, as Loxia lenses are comparatively slow.

My selfish first want is a Q with 50/1.7 or so that crops to 75/90 to twin my 28 Q. I would get it all: AF, IQ, light weight and small size. Not likely. Next is a downsized SL that'll take M-glass. I'd lose the benefit of added tele power from my M-lenses on the CL but gain the image quality of FF, especially in regard to better high iso performance.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what Leica does.
 
T

thompsonkirk

Member
I’m having trouble following the speculations!

Are most folks thinking it will be an L-mount camera with AF lenses - but will use M lenses manually via the M to L adapter?

Or that by some wizardry, It will AF with M lenses?

If it’s really called CM, I’d expect the ‘M’ to denote the traditional M mount?

Kirk
 
glenerrolrd

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
From a product strategy ....a CM looks to be additive to Leica s portfolio . However ....as with any new release ..it will be the pace of new lens introduction that will establish its market acceptance . Fuji has done a great job in getting to market the first wave of lenses for it products . HB not bad with the new X1D a year after introduction . But Leica has lagged . The experience with the SL has been woeful .

Now it appears that Leica will have a 3rd group of lenses with the L mount for the CM . The DX sized lenses covering the cropped sensor CL , the larger PRO style lenses for the SL and a new FX style for the CM . This of course can work if the CM lenses are smaller and thus slower but its difficult . So lenses will be a large issue once the glow of a new product introduction fades. It will be this time next year before we see most of the lenses in the first 5 ...maybe longer .

The 2nd major issue will be the key components of the CM ....will the EVF match the quality of the SL , will the AF handle continuous tracking , will the sensor be competitive or another me to 24MP .

My guess is that Leica has let the market drive the design . The price will be competitive (50-100% premium ) but the specifications will not be market leading . Too bad .....only in a few cases has Leica taken their historical approach of building the best and letting the cost drive the pricing .

And .....the lost their very best product manager (Leica Q) to Hasselblad ..I am sure thanks to Ming s new position there . :bugeyes:
 
Godfrey

Godfrey

Well-known member
I don't care all that much about lenses: I don't need/want AF very much, it doesn't net me any advantage; and I already have all the excellent Leica lenses I need or want.

I'm in the process of selling my SL because I don't use it enough. The only things I continue to use it for ... macro, tabletop, long tele, copy work ... could be done very handily using my existing M and R lenses with an EVF body.

I won't buy another Sony, really disliked that thing.

So once I've moved the SL system out, I'll be waiting to see what the "CM" is. If it's a full frame CL body, that will do me just fine: I can use all my current lenses without any issues using the M Adapter L and R Adapter M mount adapters. If it's something radically different, well, either a CL body itself will do the job or I'll buy nothing and use the Olympus E-M1 that I still have, along with my existing Olympus E-System and M.Zuiko lenses, or even with the Leica lenses by adaptation.

I'm not so keen on the quarter frame adaptation, however, since it throws the FoV range way off into the tele range; the half frame adaptation on an APS-C body is doable if not ideal. And I've gotten used to working with 24 Mpixel files rather than 16Mpixel ... although that hardly really matters for my purposes.

What the rest of the buying public wants (or needs, on rare occasion) is of no consequence to me whatever. :D

G
 
M

MCTuomey

New member
Godfrey said:
I don't care all that much about lenses ...
G
Click to expand...
I'd say it differently. Most of what you (or I) care about are the lenses. Which you've already assembled & maintained carefully over time, as I have too. We're willing to spend the money to move around bodies on sort of extended trials to see what'll work well, to find a good capture platform for those fine lenses, whether some of which may be newer SL and some of which may be "legacy."

Leica has always been about their optics, as is commonly said. I'm very pleased that Leica continues to offer a stream of bodies to give us various options (OVF v EVF, MF v AF, full frame v aps-c, etc.) I prefer native mounts, or native adapters worst case, to adapting Sony/Fuji/Canikon bodies to Leica glass. Looking forward to the CM's debut, one more opportunity to improve how I use my M glass.
 
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ptomsu

ptomsu

Workshop Member
jdphoto said:
This will undermine the current SL, CL and S markets imo.
Click to expand...
Actually it is time that Leica lets that go - they need to open up for future generations and should not look too much in any kind of undermining IMHO :cool:
 
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