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Leica CM .......June ?

MCTuomey

New member
This will undermine the current SL, CL and S markets imo.
This can be said of the introduction of any new product whose functions overlap with prior products. What is new cannibalizes the old. The alternative is a slide toward irrelevance, given the life expectancy of digital cameras and competitors' speed of innovation.

Darn good, if you're a buyer in the used or discounted new prior gen camera market. Not so good if you buy and sell new bodies frequently, I guess.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I'd say it differently. Most of what you (or I) care about are the lenses. Which you've already assembled & maintained carefully over time, as I have too. ...
Yes, indeed ... That's an accurate restatement. I don't care much if anything in the way of NEW lenses since I already have all the excellent lenses I need and want. :)

Regards obsoleting or competing with other products in the line, I'm sure Leica understands this. Remember that they only make profits from selling new equipment, and if everyone who wanted an M and would buy one new either already has one, or will buy a newer product instead, what's the difference to them, financially speaking? Not a lot, I wager. They make no money from second-market-sales of used gear...

If you buy and sell new Leica bodies frequently, well, you're in a different income bracket than I live in and might be able to afford such entertainment. I never buy Leica gear without at least the hope of using it for quite a long time. So far, I've not had any problem reselling what didn't work for me in Leica gear at a reasonable return rate, and used it enough in the meantime to make it feel like I got good value out of it.

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Okay, countdown commencing.

I want a CL body with a FF sensor, period. Don't care about AF, don't care about much other than the body. I want this body for specific uses, since I've now shipped my SL system off to be sold. If it's not what I want, I expect I'll have a CL soon: It will do well enough.

What they make ... Three more days and speculation will be at an end. :D

G
 

jonoslack

Active member
Okay, countdown commencing.

I want a CL body with a FF sensor, period. Don't care about AF, don't care about much other than the body. I want this body for specific uses, since I've now shipped my SL system off to be sold. If it's not what I want, I expect I'll have a CL soon: It will do well enough.

What they make ... Three more days and speculation will be at an end. :D

G
Selling your SL kit Godfrey? that's radical! I hope you won't regret it.

your R lenses won't be the same on a CL

best
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Hi Jono!

Yes, indeed. Took me a long time to make the decision, but I realized that I haven't used the SL to do much other than some copy work and a minute amount of tabletop for over a year and a half. I just don't use/need the SL and its awesome lenses any more, and the kit is simply too valuable to have it sit on a shelf, for me. My life has changed a lot since I retired; the weight and size of pro grade gear is no longer warranted by my uses.

The CL body would do as well for that work, with either my M or R lenses, although I'd prefer a 35mm sized format. Actually, the Olympus E-M1 would do as well too, I'm sure, with its native lenses ... and I still have that too.

My notion is that if I acquire a CM or CL body, I'll keep my little remaining kit of R lenses (19, 50/1.4, 50/2, Macro 60, 90/2, Macro 100 + bellows, 180) for the very occasional use on the Leicaflex SL and for that tabletop/copy work on the CM/CL, and sell off all the Olympus gear finally. The Leica M-D and its lens kit will remain, along with the M4-2, the Hassy SWC, the Light L16, the Perkeo II, and my instant film cameras ... That is surely enough for any uses I have in mind for the foreseeable future.

But that's the fun part about the future: Not all of it is foreseeable. Things change.. :D

onwards!
G
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Hi Jono!

Yes, indeed. Took me a long time to make the decision, but I realized that I haven't used the SL to do much other than some copy work and a minute amount of tabletop for over a year and a half. I just don't use/need the SL and its awesome lenses any more, and the kit is simply too valuable to have it sit on a shelf, for me. My life has changed a lot since I retired; the weight and size of pro grade gear is no longer warranted by my uses.

The CL body would do as well for that work, with either my M or R lenses, although I'd prefer a 35mm sized format. Actually, the Olympus E-M1 would do as well too, I'm sure, with its native lenses ... and I still have that too.

My notion is that if I acquire a CM or CL body, I'll keep my little remaining kit of R lenses (19, 50/1.4, 50/2, Macro 60, 90/2, Macro 100 + bellows, 180) for the very occasional use on the Leicaflex SL and for that tabletop/copy work on the CM/CL, and sell off all the Olympus gear finally. The Leica M-D and its lens kit will remain, along with the M4-2, the Hassy SWC, the Light L16, the Perkeo II, and my instant film cameras ... That is surely enough for any uses I have in mind for the foreseeable future.

But that's the fun part about the future: Not all of it is foreseeable. Things change.. :D

onwards!
G
Not being in the same boat as you with owning an SL and lenses, my needs changed in a similar way. I am rarely needing (lusting) for a FF kit anymore and am meanwhile a happy camper in m43 territory with my EM1.2 and lenses (too much :cool:) but can achieve almost all I want with just that setup.

Now I still have all my Leica M lenses and analog cameras (M6, M7, M-P) but do not use them since on m43 the 2x crop is far too much for my taste, an SL was not an option for me same the current digital M incarnations. The rumoured CM if FF and being a EVF version of an M could very well be, especially if it also seriously supports 4k video which I meanwhile use very often.

But as you said - things change and especially so since I retired and I am happy that I can let some things (ideas) finally go :clap:

It renders true once more - the only constant in life is change ;)

Peter
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
This could be a milestone for Leica's lesser demographic. I owned both the Q and CL and wanted more in terms of utility and build quality. Hopefully, this new "C-M" will have tighter tolerances between the camera and lens, unlike the CL. The Q didn't have as good a build quality as the CL, imo, so why not mesh the two into one? The 23mm F/2 on the CL has a terrible flare too, so perhaps these new lenses will flare better and not show sensor patterns of the microlens. No other lens I've used has ever flared like the 23mm f/2 TL. Keep the Leica gestalt, make it more competitive and obtainable and this might just be the evolution of Leica.
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
I don't blame the CL 23 lens as the flare is a characteristic of the (Sony ?) sensor in the CL and the fact that you point the camera straight at the sun. Your see more or less of the effect depending on the lens. There's a longish thread on this at the LUF CL forum, under the title "do M and CL lenses differ on the CL."
 
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MCTuomey

New member
I don't blame the CL 23 lens as the flare is a characteristic of the (Sony ?) sensor in the CL and the fact that you point the camera straight at the sun. Your see more or less of the effect depending on the lens. There's a longish thread on this at the LUF CL forum, under the title "do M and CL lenses differ on the CL."
I toggled over to LUF and read it. You're right. 3 pages of posts to demonstrate that pointing the CL directly at the sun with some lenses induces flare. How unexpected ;)
Was hoping for some comparative pics showing how M and C/TL lenses render differently - oh well.


I owned both the Q and CL and wanted more in terms of utility and build quality.
What sort of subjects and under what conditions were you prevented from shooting by the Q or CL? I'm curious.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
[QUOTE=MCTuomey;760174]I toggled over to LUF and read it. You're right. 3 pages of posts to demonstrate that pointing the CL directly at the sun with some lenses induces flare. How unexpected ;)
Was hoping for some comparative pics showing how M and C/TL lenses render differently - oh well.




It's not the flare that's an issue. It's the pattern of micro lenses that are being reflected off the sensor when using the 23mm f/2 TL. Many photographers use the sun flare for dramatic effect, especially film shooters.The 23mm TL shows the array of micro lenses thus, rendering the effect useless

What sort of subjects and under what conditions were you prevented from shooting by the Q or CL? I'm curious.[/QUOTE/]

Anything requiring more than 28 mm, such as sports or wildlife photos. While the CL needs more faster, native prime lenses and a more intuitive interface.
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
[QUOTE=MCTuomey;760174]I toggled over to LUF and read it. You're right. 3 pages of posts to demonstrate that pointing the CL directly at the sun with some lenses induces flare. How unexpected ;)
Was hoping for some comparative pics showing how M and C/TL lenses render differently - oh well.




It's not the flare that's an issue. It's the pattern of micro lenses that are being reflected off the sensor when using the 23mm f/2 TL. Many photographers use the sun flare for dramatic effect, especially film shooters.The 23mm TL shows the array of micro lenses thus, rendering the effect useless

What sort of subjects and under what conditions were you prevented from shooting by the Q or CL? I'm curious.[/QUOTE/]

Anything requiring more than 28 mm, such as sports or wildlife photos. While the CL needs more faster native prime lenses and a more intuitive interface.
What about the 35/60/55-135mm lenses?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
It's not the flare that's an issue. It's the pattern of micro lenses that are being reflected off the sensor when using the 23mm f/2 TL. Many photographers use the sun flare for dramatic effect, especially film shooters.The 23mm TL shows the array of micro lenses thus, rendering the effect useless

While the CL needs more faster native prime lenses and a more intuitive interface.
These needs are not my needs. :D

(Note: I've never used sun flare in the viewfinder for dramatic effect, and likely never will. That's film thinking.
It's much easier to add such flare in post processing where you can control it precisely, if you want it.

I've never done that either...)

The CL user interface seems fine to me, based on reading the instruction manual. I'll know for sure if I buy one. :)

G
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
[QUOTE=MCTuomey;760174]I toggled over to LUF and read it. You're right. 3 pages of posts to demonstrate that pointing the CL directly at the sun with some lenses induces flare. How unexpected ;)
Was hoping for some comparative pics showing how M and C/TL lenses render differently - oh well.




It's not the flare that's an issue. It's the pattern of micro lenses that are being reflected off the sensor when using the 23mm f/2 TL. Many photographers use the sun flare for dramatic effect, especially film shooters.The 23mm TL shows the array of micro lenses thus, rendering the effect useless

What sort of subjects and under what conditions were you prevented from shooting by the Q or CL? I'm curious.[/QUOTE/]

Anything requiring more than 28 mm, such as sports or wildlife photos. While the CL needs more faster, native prime lenses and a more intuitive interface.
What about the 35/60/55-135mm lenses?
The zoom is anything but fast and the 60mm macro is still f2.8. The 35mm 1.4 TL equates to a 50mm and yes, it is fast, but also the widest in that class of speed.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Leica Rumors is reporting that a brand new EVF camera will be introduced on June 14th . Most important ....Full Frame , New Sensor aimed at high ISO performance and new line of AF lenses .

My speculation not based on anything ......if the mount is M (why wouldn t it be ?) the body would support both legacy manual focus M mount lenses AND a new line of small AF lenses . Leica EVF have been excellent with the SL still best in class ...the Q and the CL have been close .(No worry here ). My guess is its 24MPs due to emphasis on high ISO (and probably cost ).

Two things come to mind about Leica Strategy (new CEO ) ...(1) a willingness to cannibalize the M buyers ? and (2) a focus on the consumer (verse PRO ) .
OPS .....Strategy is once again relying on BLING for sales . :banghead:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I have no issue with Leica joining the high-end watch market. If it makes them money and doesn't compromise their optics and camera equipment work, what's the problem? But, although I like watches, I don't really want a watch and wouldn't spend the money for one. The only mistake, I think, would be for Leica to focus marketing efforts on their camera audience: they need to develop a fancy watch audience through style and build quality credentials.

So whatever might be in development for a compact FF camera isn't revealed as yet. No problem: as I said before, if the supposed CM body didn't meet what I wanted, a CL body would likely do fine. My SL gear is up for sale—so when it sells, I'll consider my options and pick what works for my uses. In fact, a used M typ 240 body may also be just fine for what I want (since it has Live View and would use my same R lens mount adapter and all the other R and M lens equipment I have).

The goal is primarily macro, copy, and tabletop capability with TTL viewing; I just don't do enough of it to warrant the value of the SL and its lenses sitting on the shelf 51 weeks of the year depreciating further. :)

G
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Thank you for the review Jono.
Impressive what compacts can do today. Still for some reason every time I buy a new compact I dont use it as much as I thought I would. This one looks pretty nice as well.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
The zoom is anything but fast and the 60mm macro is still f2.8. The 35mm 1.4 TL equates to a 50mm and yes, it is fast, but also the widest in that class of speed.
3.5-4.5 is not bad for a pretty compact telezoom lens IMO. But yes, its not a fast wildlife or sports lens, more a very useful and compact allround lens for casual and travel.
 
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