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Thread: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

  1. #101
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! If you're a free-lance photographer or a single-person shop making less than $50K per year from your business, the very notion of spending $14K for a couple of pieces of equipment is so absurd it isn't worth considering. MOST professional photographers in that situation buy the cheapest gear that will get the job doneóand for most such jobs handled by $50K/annum photographers the nuanced excellence of a Leica lens compared to the already excellent rendering of a good CaNiFuPenSoOlyPan lens is completely irrelevant: The buyers don't see it.

    This is what I mean by acting like a professional. A professional MUST have backup and MUST buy equipment in keeping with the profitability of their business because their viability as a business depends on it. If you're making <$50K per year, you spend as little as possible on your gear and as much as you can afford marketing your work. A part-time "pro" photographer that makes a little money now and then from their photography, and has a generous stable income doing something else, can afford to buy high end gear because the cost of the gear is hardly reckoned into the cost of doing business. (Note that the Olympus professional program requires that you make something like 80% or more of your total income from photography with Olympus gear, and requires documentation to prove that.)



    LOL again! Do you not understand that I am retired now and this entire forum is nothing more than idle chit-chat to pass the time in a pleasant manner, conversing with other idle photography-interested people, when I'm not otherwise busy? It has zero weight to me.

    If I were still a working pro, I wouldn't have the time to waste on this discussion at all.

    G
    Yeah but there's this thing called credit and business loans...

    I had written a much longer and nuanced reply but I just deleted it. You're continuing to choose to not acknowledge other valid points of view. Frankly, it's a bit disrespectful, paternalistic, and is a privileged viewpoint not conducive to the discussion.
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  2. #102
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    You're continuing to choose to not acknowledge other valid points of view. Frankly, it's a bit disrespectful, paternalistic, and is a privileged viewpoint not conducive to the discussion.
    +1

    There are also a lot of blanket / one size fits all statements put in there as well. Other people are not allowed to take a critical stance on Leica and successful pros are not allowed to take a moment to post about photography on his retirement mode enthusiast forum.

    I guess it is time to get off of "Godfrey's Photography Lawn".
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  3. #103
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    You've missed my point. The point I'm making is the noisome, continual bashing of Leica, Hasselblad, etc etc, that goes on because someone had a bad experience, and the pursuit of that complaining ad nauseam, has a negative effect on everyone including the people doing it.

    I dislike whiners even more than I dislike being screwed by poor service and high prices. I'd like to see people stop whining: it doesn't do anyone any good at all.

    That's what is worth continuing in this utterly negative thread for.

    G
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You've missed my point. The point I'm making is the noisome, continual bashing of Leica, Hasselblad, etc etc, that goes on because someone had a bad experience, and the pursuit of that complaining ad nauseam, has a negative effect on everyone including the people doing it.

    I dislike whiners even more than I dislike being screwed by poor service and high prices. I'd like to see people stop whining: it doesn't do anyone any good at all.

    That's what is worth continuing in this utterly negative thread for.

    G
    I donít think anyone missed your point at all. Your perspective is that you donít like people being critical of the products of a company that earned their business that you also happen to like.

    Where I believe that you missed the point is that itís probably not being a good idea to name call people (for example calling people children or whiners) that had a bad experience that they choose to share in order to make your point. That comes across as a personal attack on people whether intentional or not... and in some cases maybe makes the validity of your points counter-intuitive as some may equate your position subconsciously with a position of the average Leica owner. I donít personally feel most feel the way you do and I know a great many Leica owners that are wonderful people and excellent photographers. That being said your comments come across as defensive as if youíre taking it personally that others havenít had the same experience as you. There are those like Vieri or Glenerrolrd that have provided great responses and nuances while still admitting that they love their Leica experience. Vieri has even moved onto another brand but for his workflow Leica wasnít the best option for him. I think they brought a great deal of positivity to prospective Leica owners that had concerns while still being objective and fair. Maybe try taking a page from their books in how you respond to people that took the chance of the Leica experience.

    I think most people value your input even in disagreement but i do feel that the level of respect doesn't come across as being reciprocal with the name calling.
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  5. #105
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I dislike whiners even more than I dislike being screwed by poor service and high prices. I'd like to see people stop whining: it doesn't do anyone any good at all.
    You are doing an exemplary job whining about the whiners.
    Last edited by faberryman; 18th June 2019 at 13:14.
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  6. #106
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    You are doing an exemplary job whining about the whiners.
    You are doing an exemplary job saying absolutely nothing of any value at all.
    Such it is. Iíll leave this toxic thread to those who like to complain.

    G

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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    "I’ll leave this toxic thread to those who like to complain."

    I think you said something similar several days ago.

    One reason these threads go on so long is that some people can't help but having the last word.

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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Enough please...
    www.getdpi.com
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    I think the takeaway here is, we're all really passionate about photography. I think it's inevitable that were emotionally tied to our camera investments regardless of how big or small the end use is because the camera and lenses are an extension of our creativity and passion. When a camera inspires confidence, it's a joy to create memorable images and worth every penny, but when it's unreliable it's a heaping pile of expensive crap! Unless shooting in high volume studios, back up gear is usually provided. Most of us don't have that luxury, so for the professional, our gear is our reputation. Leica cameras and lenses are certainly one of the most expensive camera systems to invest in and many feel that its performance should justify that investment - hence, the emotional part. Forums provide a useful link to share information, but tread a fine line with regard to fanning flame wars between brand loyalists or those who don't share that experience. That's ok too, but empathy can keep us in line from wandering too far off the original topic. I admit, in the past I have been part of that too. I think it's human nature, like sticking up for your home team. We don't always want to be reminded that we spent so much on camera equipment. So, think of this as not just a forum, but sometimes more like a self help group of like-minded individuals to share information and personal experiences. If we weren't so passionate we wouldn't be members of this forum.

  10. #110
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    I never have seen so many negative people than in Leica specific forums - not only here but all over the Internet.

    I think there is no way to understand that .....
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    What you shoot with is not my concern nor should it be the concern of anyone.
    The pictures you take are the end goal.
    Use what you want.
    thanks
    -bob
    p.s.
    full disclosure
    I routinely shoot a digital Leica on my trips, M-10 or M-10P.
    I routinely shoot a Nikon 850 or Z7 for those situations that warrant it.
    I routinely shoot a converted Sony full spectrum since I had no idea what other good use to put it to.
    There is no such thing as an absolutely perfect camera under all circumstances. The main reason is that there are so many different and contrasting circumstances.
    The next time I hear anyone bitching about this or that camera, or which is more "professional" ( I did shoot professionally with a 4x5 view camera with only two shots per film holder), I am tempted to just ask them to stop their whining.
    Thanks
    -bob
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    I think you missed the point entirely. So much for a free thinking forum.

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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    So what is the point that you feel has been miss d completely?
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    So what is the point that you feel has been miss d completely?
    thanks
    -bob
    The enchanting purchase experience at a boutique store is quite often followed by the discovery of a poor unit hardware quality outside a dry cabinet and snail-like customer/repair service in the USA. And while no manufacturer is prone to item failures and recalls, mitigating a negative customer experience pronto is very much expected from a brand charging premium prices. Talking from a personal experience. Am I not allowed to write about it here?
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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    honestly its hard to argue with the points made about leica cameras, service etc. they service/support are not good. its well known. if you are a pro and depend on your cameras and u want to use leicas; then you need to double up everything, camera, lens, etc. thats how it is. the leica company is not set up to service pros. In those moments that the cameras/lenses work, they are the best. if timely service and support are important, move on to other products with these type of service.


    i have S, SL, CL, and M system and have never used them for critical work! lovely optics, cameras not workhorses.

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    this particluar issue you have with posted images, i also had with and hassi h4d50, but it was repaired very quickly. Kais, the french photographer based in paris, why didn't you do a google search about leica support before spening so much money and getting upset. get that out of your system.go have a drink, may be get a fuji or canon!

    Quote Originally Posted by KdB View Post
    Here's the story of a photographer who thought Leica was a serious camera company who cares about their trustful customers.



    My name is KaÔs, french photographer based in Paris, France.

    I started my Leica journey with a M9, ten years ago, sold and upgraded with a M9-P
    A Monochrom (version 1) quickly followed him all of them bought brand new.

    Wanting to get my hands on a "real Leica", I bought a M6 Titanium set with its Summicron 35/1.4.
    The medium lust was too hard to resist: a S2 with a Summarit 70 joined my stable.
    Let's add a wide angle to my S system: a brand new Summarit 35.

    Time has past, I added a M7 (0.58 finder), a Q Titanium, a Monochrom version 2, a M5, an Elmarit 90/2.0, a Summicron 50, a Summarit 35/2.4...

    We are talking about minimum 44 500Ä (including the S007)!!!!!

    Then, the problems begun: both my M9-P and Monochrom I had a sensor failure (cracked sensor).
    How come a "pro" camera could have a sensor cracked?
    During my carreer, I owned a 5DmkII, a D3x, a Df, a 5DmkIV (I'm still using today) that NEVER failed me, NEVER.

    Anyways, Leica has been kind enough to replace both sensors for free.

    When the S007 came out, I was tempted to upgrade my aging S2.
    At my usual Leica dealer, they kindly checked my S2 before it goes on sale and discovered a corroded sensor!

    Come on! A third failure from a so serious comapany? I must be the unluckiest photographer on earth then.

    Still, I upgraded to a reconditioned mint grade SOO7, checked by Leica with a one year guarantee.

    During my second shooting, the 70 started to rattle from time to time, missing focus lock.
    Of course, my poker face never let any worries showed to my clients.

    Back home, I uploaded the photos into Capture One and got struck by what I have discovered:
    See attached photos.
    DNGs avaiaible upon request.


    I thought my memory card failed (I exclusively use hi-speed Sandisk Extreme and Extreme Pro SD).
    I tried with different cards, same problem.

    The DNGs are available if requested.

    I met the people of Leica at Paris Salon de la photo (photoshow) and, after hours of friendly chat, they acknowledged that there was a video card failure.

    Wait a second. Are we talking about Leica's flagship camera here?
    The one that is supposed to compete with a Hasselblad HD6-50 or a PhaseOne XF???
    A failure after less than 2000 photos taken? Is this german so-called excellence?

    Since November 8th, 2018 my SOO7 is at the customer service (I hope) and I have NO NEWS from them!!!

    How come a pro photographer can trust such miserable products?????
    How come my 2400Ä 5DmkIV works like a charm after litteraly thousands and thousands of photos???
    How come it takes 10 days max to Canon to fix and upgrade the firmware of their pro camera when I have been waiting 6+ months to get any information from
    Wetzlar???

    I'm over with this overrated brand.
    Keep on releasing limited edition for rich Qataris and Russians and let the pros (Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Fuji, to name a few) run the photography
    business.

    SHAME ON YOU Leica to ignore and disrespect your loyal customers!!!

    We made you, never forget that.

    I sent them a letter and I know the drill: they will send me apologies.

    But I'm not paying for apologies!!! I don't need them!!! I'm paying for equipment that pays my bills and feed me!


    Today, I'm waiting to get my hands back on my S007 to trade it for a Hasselblad H6D-50c.
    I am so disappointed by Leica...







    KAŌS DE BALI

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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    honestly its hard to argue with the points made about leica cameras, service etc. they service/support are not good. its well known. if you are a pro and depend on your cameras and u want to use leicas; then you need to double up everything, camera, lens, etc. thats how it is. the leica company is not set up to service pros. In those moments that the cameras/lenses work, they are the best. if timely service and support are important, move on to other products with these type of service.


    i have S, SL, CL, and M system and have never used them for critical work! lovely optics, cameras not workhorses.
    The only issues that Leica has had in my experience have been with the autofocus on S system and the rust issue with CCD in M9 and MM. I exited the S system because of the autofocus issue - but as you say - Leica has always been about the optics (and the rangefinder experience in M).

    However - I disagree with you saying that leica products aren't workhorses - the SL has been faultless as has its optics - fantastic system. With M - you get what you pay for - anyone that has any familiarity with rangefinder knows that regular servicing was required and the M10 makes rangefinder maintenance a lot easier. The CL is another step in the modernisation journey - after 2 years of constant use - no problems - except for difficulty in getting the super wide zoom.

    The world has moved on though and I find that many manufacturers offer optics (now) as well as correction technologies which have closed the gap with Leica standards of excellence. The camera body tech as well as price to value equation - is the real challenge for Leica.

    It is fair enough for people to bring up issues they have had on a forum - negative news is always an inbuilt 'bias' in forums anyway.

  18. #118
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    I would define a pro level system by the coverage of worldwide servicing and rental outlets.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    As good as the sl is, I have sent one in for service


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The only issues that Leica has had in my experience have been with the autofocus on S system and the rust issue with CCD in M9 and MM. I exited the S system because of the autofocus issue - but as you say - Leica has always been about the optics (and the rangefinder experience in M).

    However - I disagree with you saying that leica products aren't workhorses - the SL has been faultless as has its optics - fantastic system. With M - you get what you pay for - anyone that has any familiarity with rangefinder knows that regular servicing was required and the M10 makes rangefinder maintenance a lot easier. The CL is another step in the modernisation journey - after 2 years of constant use - no problems - except for difficulty in getting the super wide zoom.

    The world has moved on though and I find that many manufacturers offer optics (now) as well as correction technologies which have closed the gap with Leica standards of excellence. The camera body tech as well as price to value equation - is the real challenge for Leica.

    It is fair enough for people to bring up issues they have had on a forum - negative news is always an inbuilt 'bias' in forums anyway.

  20. #120
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Customer Service is what finally drove me away from Leica. It wasn't sufficient to have backup equipment, I needed backups for the backups to ensure having a functional system on hand.

    One year (and many cross-country trips) for repairing my R8/DMR. Would you rely on a single backup camera if the camera were unserviceable for one year?

    Eight months and ZERO communication for declining to repair my primary lens (the lens was subsequently repaired by an independent repair technician). One of my copies of this lens has a downtime record over ten years of 25%. Would you rely on a single backup of your most useful lens for eight months with a historical downtime of 25%, and no clue when the other lens will return?

    When the equipment was working well it was fabulous. Service and/or repair was atrocious. Bye bye Leica.
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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  21. #121
    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    i must say Doug; you have always been very patient with Leica!


    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Customer Service is what finally drove me away from Leica. It wasn't sufficient to have backup equipment, I needed backups for the backups to ensure having a functional system on hand.

    One year (and many cross-country trips) for repairing my R8/DMR. Would you rely on a single backup camera if the camera were unserviceable for one year?

    Eight months and ZERO communication for declining to repair my primary lens (the lens was subsequently repaired by an independent repair technician). One of my copies of this lens has a downtime record over ten years of 25%. Would you rely on a single backup of your most useful lens for eight months with a historical downtime of 25%, and no clue when the other lens will return?

    When the equipment was working well it was fabulous. Service and/or repair was atrocious. Bye bye Leica.
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  22. #122
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    This has really gone on long enough.
    Sure whine if you want to, complain about how much your Rolex cost to clean, In general it is basically true that the more gear costs, the more it costs to fix and the smaller market for these sorts of things means there are fewer options.
    The smaller the manufacturer, the smaller the repair staff.
    You need to ask yourself why you bought the camera in the first place.
    Did it fulfill your expectations?
    If not move on and just please be quiet if your unrealistic expectations were not realized. Folks that have pictures to take think otherwise.

    thanks
    -bob
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  23. #123
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    Obviously, Leica did not meet the OP's expectations. Actually, it's a bit presumptuous to assume what some considered realistic or unrealistic. Smug comments about luxuries and assumptions are really what should be left out of forums, don't you think? Not everyone here has the luxury of multiple Leica cameras, so perhaps less hypocrisy and a little more empathy for those who choose to post on a photography forum about their experiences. If it's considered an unrealistic expectation to have a camera actually work when pressing the shutter, then I need to find another forum.
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  24. #124
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    Re: So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

    What many seem to be missing is that this forum is for the exchange of photography techniques images and related technical topics.
    IT IS NOT A VENDOR BASHING FORUM.
    Several members have notified me that they have left due to the toxicity of this thread as well as others.
    Sorry, I have no empathy, we have all owned gear that has failed us, and yes several vendors have troubles, but a simple disclosure ought to be one and done. The railing on is not appreciated and will not be tolerated.
    If you hate Leica, please just leave this forum alone and go hate them somewhere else.
    I hope you understand.
    </thread>
    -bob
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