So Leica makes cameras for pros... Really?????

[Godfrey]

...
I don’t doubt that Godfrey’s experiences are true but him dismissing other people experiences (as vitriol or anecdotal is not right IMO) ...

I don't dismiss other people's experiences. I abhor their ranting on and on about it. Leica screwed up, sure. Big deal ... happens with every company from time to time. No need to go on and on and on and on and on with the hate and nonsense.

G

 

[Godfrey]

What about the bad sensors S cameras had like the M9 sensor and what about a FW upgrade for the S that caused its higher torque (for faster focusing) to destroy most S lens gear wheels. That is just one line too.

I have no familiarity with any of the S line cameras ... Never wanted on, never owned one. Several of my friends have had them though, and I haven't heard them complaining about anything. I haven't heard too many problems other than on this forum and on the LUG.

And yes, that's just one line of products too, and its audience is even smaller than the Leica M audience—which isn't very large, really, compared to most other cameras on the market. So we have two lines of products that have a history of some issues with some bodies and some lenses in those systems.

Leica has over a dozen lines of products. Little other than the M9 bodies and the noted S bodies/lenses have a significant history of problems.

I guess people just like to rant about things. I find the ranting noisome.

G

 

[iiiNelson]

I don't dismiss other people's experiences. I abhor their ranting on and on about it. Leica screwed up, sure. Big deal ... happens with every company from time to time. No need to go on and on and on and on and on with the hate and nonsense.

G

I don’t know that people are ranting nonstop on this thread but rather providing their own user/ownership experiences. The original poster provided his experiences based upon personal needs and expectations. Other people shared their views/experiences. I don’t understand the problem with this discussion when it’s peiple providing direct user experiences. I don’t think many have trashed Leica as a company or their products per se. What they have done is issue caution based on their own experiences. It’s no different that you offering your Sony or Sigma experiences. They didn’t work for you for whatever reason... that doesn’t make them bad - just not something that can fit into your workflow.

It’s completely unlike people that make binary statements about products they never owned. People have invested in these systems that they felt were less than reliable. I know I put in excess of $20k into my complete Leica kit... I REALLY feel for S owners with issues because I assume they put at least twice that amount into their kit.

 

[algrove]

I have no familiarity with any of the S line cameras ... Never wanted on, never owned one. Several of my friends have had them though, and I haven't heard them complaining about anything. I haven't heard too many problems other than on this forum and on the LUG.

And yes, that's just one line of products too, and its audience is even smaller than the Leica M audience—which isn't very large, really, compared to most other cameras on the market. So we have two lines of products that have a history of some issues with some bodies and some lenses in those systems.

Leica has over a dozen lines of products. Little other than the M9 bodies and the noted S bodies/lenses have a significant history of problems.

I guess people just like to rant about things. I find the ranting noisome.

G

I guess that many complaints come from those who expected better than average quality and quality control at a high price when buying Leica products and then were very dissappointed when that did not materialize.

 

[JoelM]

I shot with Leicas for just over 40 years and never had one issue. Of course, I never needed to deal with customer service either.

Joel

 

[jdphoto]

I too, never had problems with Leica. Although my Leica M2-R needed a CLA, that was it. I shot with the M9 and MM with no issues either, but I sold the M9 before the sensor issue was published. However, because of forums, user experience and price point, I would never invest in Leica digital. Trying to score points by demagoguing is also not useful to the OP's original intent either. What works for some certainly doesn't apply to all. Nobody's that selfish.

 

[DB5]

I don't dismiss other people's experiences. I abhor their ranting on and on about it. Leica screwed up, sure. Big deal ... happens with every company from time to time. No need to go on and on and on and on and on with the hate and nonsense.

G

Really, it's truly wonderful how you've had nothing but positive experiences.

However, other people have had very different experiences that no amount of your abhorring and ranting in the world will ever invalidate or change.

If you really do abhor it so much I suggest you just don't read it.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Not an excuse for Leica ..but this thread serves no purpose .. Its as if the poster really doesn t have a clue about working with Leica . The following are FACTS and I can back every point

TERRIBLE REPAIR SERVICE

Does anyone still not understand that Leica provides terrible repair service . It has nothing like Canon or Nikon s professional services .

ALL LEICA CCD CAMERA S DEVELOP SENSOR CORROSION ..

M8,M9,MONO,S2,S006 ...service times could be 4-6 weeks or 6 months depending on availability of replacement sensors .

ALL LEICA S LENS NEED AF GEAR REPLACED

Explained a million times ...it was design error .. requirements changed with faster AF .

DEALER NETWORK IS FULL OF $HIT

You can not trust what you are told (in most cases not all).

LEICA US CUSTOMER SERVICE IS A BAD JOKE .

A good dealer can get around most of this .

LEICA RELIABILITY IS NOT UP TO PROFESSIONAL STDS SET BY NIKON AND CANON

Do you need it to be ?

LEiCA LENS ARE UNIFORMLY TERRIFIC...AS a GROUP ..NOBODY ELSE IS EVEN CLOSE

Sample variation isn t an issue for Leica lenses

LEICA BODIES PROVIDE A UNIQUE USER EXPERIENCE AND ARE CLEARLY EXCELLENT TOOLS FOR AN EXPERIENCED PHOTOGRAPHER


These facts don t change by repeating poor experience.

Leica builds exceptionally high performance gear capable of the very best image quality ...they are not particularly reliable nor is working with Leica service anything good .

 

[algrove]

Finally a Leica fanboy telling the truth which is a welcome relief here.

And I know Roger is speaking from perhaps 30 or more years of experience with every Leica system offered during that period.

Subject over for me.

 

[Godfrey]

The subject has been over for me for some time. Whatever the heck it was supposed to be anyway...

I see that you agree with or accept Roger's opinions. That's fine. I accept some of them too.

When I can buy a 1978 M4-2 that sat in a sock drawer for 22 years, spend a hundred bucks to have the rangefinder cleaned, collimated, calibrated, and then use it without any problems for going on another decade, I tend to be pretty happy with the camera and the brand. When I can make 40,000+ exposures between an X2, X113, SL, M-P240, M-9, M-D and CL digital with only two problems over the span of a decade, and that problem taken care of by Leica USA in just a couple of weeks time, I also tend to be pretty happy.

So sue me: I'm happy.
Life's too short: They're just cameras after all.

G

 

[stephengilbert]

"The subject has been over for me for some time."

Could've fooled me.

 

[Shashin]

I guess I always get a little suspicious when the first post and thread of a new member is to complain about a camera company...

 

[Mike Z]

I guess I always get a little suspicious when the first post and thread of a new member is to complain about a camera company...

Looked to me like it was his 10th post not his first.

 

[Speedgraphic]

ALL LEICA S LENS NEED AF GEAR REPLACED

Explained a million times ...it was design error .. requirements changed with faster AF .

Ah! Just a little design error. Is that all? I'm sure Leica will have your lens back in a couple weeks good as new, all free of cost for repair of course.

Oh wait we all know it didn't go that way. That little design error could and did lead to repair times hovering around 6mo or more, and these lenses are not cheap. I mean they were obviously cheaply made, since they couldn't design an AF system to take a slight variation in speed, but that's a different story.

Just because you can explain what happened doesn't excuse it or Leica's general response to the issue. It's the same story with M9 sensors. It's nice that they replaced them, but the replacements break down too! Had they produced a reliable product, M9s would be in service at higher numbers now, and command higher prices to folks wanting the CCD look. Just as there are many professional photographers who will continue to use the Nikon D700 or D3 series now and for years to come. Considering the brand identity they cultivate so zealously, I am sure that many people bought the M9 with the expectation that they could use it and repair it essentially for life. In reality, it couldn't even last 10 years.

I don't actually entirely blame Leica for having issues. I've stuck with plenty of brands after embarrassing problems emerged. My Subaru is on it's 2nd recall and I'm definitely buying another Subaru some day! I just wish Leica would put a little bit less money into their boutique and park expansion, and a little more into their service and support department. It's what their customers deserve. That would mean repairs in Germany should take no more than 1 month not counting transit times. They should have parts on hand, and offer good communication throughout the process.

This is not a 'big ask'.

Oh and they could also bring down the price of a basic film camera CLA. That is just egregious.

 

[JoelM]

Looked to me like it was his 10th post not his first.

He's made comments since his first post. Every time you post, it adds the total to every post, not sequentially.

HTH

Joel

 

[Paratom]

Want a Ferrari with reliability of Toyota? I dont think it will happen.
I have a love - hate relation to Leica myself, and I think they really need to work on their customer relationship (even though here in Germany I have good experience), but some of the products really have something special in regards of optics and user interface.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Ah! Just a little design error. Is that all? I'm sure Leica will have your lens back in a couple weeks good as new, all free of cost for repair of course.

Oh wait we all know it didn't go that way. That little design error could and did lead to repair times hovering around 6mo or more, and these lenses are not cheap. I mean they were obviously cheaply made, since they couldn't design an AF system to take a slight variation in speed, but that's a different story.

Just because you can explain what happened doesn't excuse it or Leica's general response to the issue. It's the same story with M9 sensors. It's nice that they replaced them, but the replacements break down too! Had they produced a reliable product, M9s would be in service at higher numbers now, and command higher prices to folks wanting the CCD look. Just as there are many professional photographers who will continue to use the Nikon D700 or D3 series now and for years to come. Considering the brand identity they cultivate so zealously, I am sure that many people bought the M9 with the expectation that they could use it and repair it essentially for life. In reality, it couldn't even last 10 years.

I don't actually entirely blame Leica for having issues. I've stuck with plenty of brands after embarrassing problems emerged. My Subaru is on it's 2nd recall and I'm definitely buying another Subaru some day! I just wish Leica would put a little bit less money into their boutique and park expansion, and a little more into their service and support department. It's what their customers deserve. That would mean repairs in Germany should take no more than 1 month not counting transit times. They should have parts on hand, and offer good communication throughout the process.

This is not a 'big ask'.

Oh and they could also bring down the price of a basic film camera CLA. That is just egregious.

NO EXCUSES ..just some insights into what happened . It helps to understand the facts in determining your expectations . Otherwise you will likely continue to be disappointed .

They designed the original gear based on the specifications from the S2 . The objective was to have a smooth and quiet auto focus drive . This worked great on the S 006 UNTIL they released a firmware upgrade to speed the auto focus . Most lenses were just fine but over time the gear just would not hold up . In addition new old stock lenses that had been sitting many times for years ......were stiff and failed immediately . In fact it wasn t until the S 007 was released that it became apparent ..the gear was not up to the torque requirements . As customers received their S 007 bodies ...lenses began to fail in bunches .

The remedy was undoubtably a terrific challenge for Leica ... a new gear would be needed and fast ! Literally every S lens ever made would need a repair if used on a S 007 . They didn t have any NEW GEARS...they could repair lenses with the exiting gear only to have them fail again in the future .

It took months to design ,source and test a new drive gear . No amount of “how could this happen ? “ was going to speed it up . Once the new gears were available ..lens repairs took 2 weeks in Wetzler . (I know this for a fact based on work orders ) . Twice that much time was lost in cross shipping ,customs and customer service . So you could look at 2 weeks to Wetzler,2 weeks in shop and 2 weeks back to your dealer . I did 9 S lenses and they were almost exactly that schedule . Shipping directly to Wetzler rather than thru NJ saved 2 weeks . I paid for one lens ($275) and no shipping ..because the lens had not failed and I did not want to wait any longer .


Finding fault or suggesting in your less than humble opinion ...Leica should do something that is more customer friendly ...is more than a bit naive ..considering past experience .

If you need a “Bullet Proof “ system that can function under the worst possible conditions and is backed by a professional services organization capable and motivated .....then you want Nikon or Canon ..period ! Think about that Canon L lens being used for a few hundred thousand captures by a professional sports photographer . N/C has the base of users and the years of experience to support professional gear . Leica does not .

Leica tries (not always successfully ) to build the very best photographic tools and to make them aesthetically pleasing and a joy to use . They frequently push the limits of whats possible relying on exceptional optical and mechanical precision . (e.g 50 APO M ) . They do their best to insure that Leica gear can take a beating and last for a life time . They are designed primarily for performance and are not always successfully reliable . Know what you are buying !

 

[glenerrolrd]

"The subject has been over for me for some time."

Could've fooled me.

Yes Steve .....you got me ! :shocked:

 

[Bernard]

It's the same story with M9 sensors. It's nice that they replaced them, but the replacements break down too! Had they produced a reliable product, M9s would be in service at higher numbers now, and command higher prices to folks wanting the CCD look.

Leica wasn't the only company to use that generation of Kodak sensors. They are the only company that still stands by them. Hasselblad and PhaseOne will flat-out refuse to service a back with an S2-era Kodak sensor.

As far as why the S lenses had focus issues, everybody has their theory. Mine is that a batch of focus gears all failed around the same age, regardless of usage. Some failed inside boxes on store shelves, others failed after hundreds of thousands of exposures. Some were used on the S-007 with higher torque, others were only ever used on the S2. Remember, Canon won't even look at a 10-year-old lens, even if it originally cost as much as a Leica S lens. People conveniently forget that.

Leica's biggest avoidable problem in all this was their USA service and turnaround times. There was a year when Leica USA couldn't or wouldn't tell you where your camera was, or when it would be ready. That was apparently due to staff turnover and CRM software. It was especially frustrating for S customer because all NJ had to do was ship the equipment to Germany and wait for its return (I'm over-simplifying, I'm sure they performed accounting and basic diagnostics). NJ wouldn't tell you where your gear was, and Germany would tell you to contact NJ.

From what I hear, that is all in the past. I am still a customer, but I haven't needed any service work recently. Local colleagues have told me that they had their Ms, SLs, and lenses serviced quickly and very professionally.

 

[Godfrey]

Yes.

Remember there are still those who complain that Canon obsoleted the FD series lens mount ... in the middle 1980s.

G