Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Exactly the M8 will only be a 10 mpx camera and to get bigger and better it will have to come from the upgrades
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simonclivehughes
Active member
Wow, I see espressogeek's concern here... if you order a new (stock) M8, and then get a sensor upgrade, do you get a refund or trade-in value for the brand new, unused 10MP sensor? If not, he's right, you just bought two sensors! Or, put more succinctly put, you just bought Leica a sensor that they can stick in the next stock body. Now that's a rip!
stephengilbert
Active member
"You just bought two sensors." Same thing with the shutter: buy a new camera, then pay extra for a second shutter. I think this is not a wise marketing move.
And what do they do with the new shutter, sensor, or whatever they remove from your new camera after you or your dealer has returned it to Germany for an upgrade?
And what do they do with the new shutter, sensor, or whatever they remove from your new camera after you or your dealer has returned it to Germany for an upgrade?
Terry
New member
Perhaps that is on the M8 and when there is a new sensor there will be an M9 making 2 models....
Agree with that - When this emerged as a rumor on the LUF, my comment there was that it made no marketing sense...........
.................now it's a fact, it still makes no sense to me(!)Sandy
etrigan63
Active member
I can understand that you would be upset at buying a new M8 and have to pay a premium to get it brought up to spec. It stands to reason that once a component becomes obsolete, the base model will be updated to include a newer component/technology, but as long as they have a stock of old component, they will put those in the base system till they run out.
Apple does this all the time with video cards.
Apple does this all the time with video cards.
Maggie O
Active member
I'll just point out that Leica hasn't done anything yet, aside from announcing that you can get a different shutter and LCD cover. Why get worked up over something totally non-existent like a hypothetical sensor upgrade? By the time it gets here, who knows what the state of things will be?
stephengilbert
Active member
Maggie,
Why get worked up? You're kidding, right?
Steve
Why get worked up? You're kidding, right?
Steve
etrigan63
Active member
To all those who feel that this move by makes no marketing sense: you are correct.
Neither did bringing out a digital rangefinder that uses lenses that were never, ever designed for digital use.
Nor building a complex module to convert a non-modular, manually focused SLR into a DSLR.
Yet, Leica did all of these things. Leica did this because the only thing that kept them alive during the digital revolution were its loyal customers. They revere that loyalty and want it to stay. They seem to have an ethic built around this concept. Why else would they buck the highly lucrative financial model that has served the Japanese photo giants so well?
Because they are willing to commit. One has to respect that. Sure they cost more but with this model that they propose you have to take the long view.
Canon/Nikon Model: Rip and Replace
Over the course of 20 years if you continue to use either of these systems you will spend (assuming you bought a $5000 body every two years and sold the previous body for half price): $27,500.00 USD [eventually camera bodies will end up in a landfill somewhere.]
Leica Model: Invest and Upgrade
Purchase an M8 and buy a €1200 upgrade every two years to keep the warranty active: $21,700 (price assumes current conversion rates for the Euro) [much less waste is generated in this model].
You may feel that I am full of beans with this line of thinking and that is your right. This is the way I look at it and it is a worst-case scenario. One can fiddle those numbers by holding off on "upgrades" and also argue that the US Dollar could get weaker/stronger over the course of the 20 years (it will).
Neither did bringing out a digital rangefinder that uses lenses that were never, ever designed for digital use.
Nor building a complex module to convert a non-modular, manually focused SLR into a DSLR.
Yet, Leica did all of these things. Leica did this because the only thing that kept them alive during the digital revolution were its loyal customers. They revere that loyalty and want it to stay. They seem to have an ethic built around this concept. Why else would they buck the highly lucrative financial model that has served the Japanese photo giants so well?
Because they are willing to commit. One has to respect that. Sure they cost more but with this model that they propose you have to take the long view.
Canon/Nikon Model: Rip and Replace
Over the course of 20 years if you continue to use either of these systems you will spend (assuming you bought a $5000 body every two years and sold the previous body for half price): $27,500.00 USD [eventually camera bodies will end up in a landfill somewhere.]
Leica Model: Invest and Upgrade
Purchase an M8 and buy a €1200 upgrade every two years to keep the warranty active: $21,700 (price assumes current conversion rates for the Euro) [much less waste is generated in this model].
You may feel that I am full of beans with this line of thinking and that is your right. This is the way I look at it and it is a worst-case scenario. One can fiddle those numbers by holding off on "upgrades" and also argue that the US Dollar could get weaker/stronger over the course of the 20 years (it will).
Maggie O
Active member
OK, let's look, just as a example, at that possibility for future upgrades. (Which, according to Carlos' math is a heck of a deal for the long-term M8 owner- I'm all for something like that!) BUT...at this time Leica has said no such thing about any regular schedule of upgrades or what each upgrade will cost. People have speculated many different scenarios but no one has any facts beyond what is down in black and white on Leica's website. People are getting worked up over speculation and nothing more. I think that's rash. I prefer to bitch about things for which I have empirical evidence. Like my feet! CHRIST, THEY HURT TONIGHT!!! :bugeyes::bugeyes::bugeyes:
Anyways, as Sean says, I know, that's "not very internet of me."
I like Leica because they do stuff as crazy as the DMR and the M8!
etrigan63
Active member
Well yes, that calculation does have some big assumptions for the sake of an apples-to-apples comparison. The big two average a new Pro body every couple of years (be it a minor update like the Canon 1D Mk2-N or a major refresh like the Mk 3's) and one assumes to keep on the cutting edge one must follow the "upgrade path" such as it is. If one follows the hypothetical situation I presented then yes, there is a sizable savings for the long-term Leica owner. But the one constant is change as they say and all of the speculation is just mental masturbation at its finest.
Right now we are presented with one optional upgrade and a promise of a really interesting upgrade in the future. That and $4.25 gets you a ride on the Metrorail.
Right now we are presented with one optional upgrade and a promise of a really interesting upgrade in the future. That and $4.25 gets you a ride on the Metrorail.
PeterA
Well-known member
Buy what your hands and heart like using - these are things that make great photographs and memorable keepsakes. Anyone who holds a Leica in their hand likes them - both the M bodies and the R8/9 bodies are the most beautiful 35mm cameras ever made as far as my eyes, hands and heart are concerned - except for my Alpa gear which is even better.
We are talking discretionary expenditure here - and excel spreadsheets with a thousand assumptions and multiple linked pivot tables comparing the economics between various sytems over 20 years is abitof fun maybe - but really just use what makes you happy - economics is for stocks and bonds and mistresses....
We are talking discretionary expenditure here - and excel spreadsheets with a thousand assumptions and multiple linked pivot tables comparing the economics between various sytems over 20 years is abitof fun maybe - but really just use what makes you happy - economics is for stocks and bonds and mistresses....
W
workingcamera
Guest
Yep that about sums it up ...
You don't get into Leica to save money and Leica AG don't expect you to.
You don't get into Leica to save money and Leica AG don't expect you to.
Agreed.
Here's what's empirical:
Leica is a company in a state of flux and mixed priorities. Cut back warranty service ability, zoom forward pre-paid money making upgrade policies ... leaving behind the effects of the cut-backs in their wake.
That Leica announces an upgrade program is fine ... but folks with the current iteration $5,000. M8 still can't use a 4 gig SDHC card, or scroll the menu without it going bonkers ... while any rank amateur with a $200. P&S can.
All that I hope is that they funnel some of the pre-paid funds to servicing current "loyal customer" cameras in need of warranty repair, and provide new firmware for SDHC use.
NO ONE is more loyal or has spent more money on Leica products than me... yet one of my M8s and 3 lenses are still languishing in their service system, and have done so since December 3rd.
Two full months out of commision, with no word as to when. I leave for LA next Monday and shooting production stills on set ... which is strictly M territory. But no back-up M8 camera or lenses over 35mm ... they are STILL in Germany on a spa vacation with not so much as a postcard with "wish you were here".
THAT is empirical fact Maggie O.
W
workingcamera
Guest
1/ Alas marc all too true :thumbdown:
and on the second para... stand in line buddy you aint the only one
robsteve
Subscriber
Didn't we loose some of the Japanese camera brands, while Leica is still around? I am thinking of Minolta, Konica, Ricoh and Contax. The few remaining other than Nikon and Canon are just a shadow of what they once were, such as Pentax and Olympus.
Maybe Leica's model and their customer loyalty is working?
After reading through these threads, doing some thinking and even riding my own rollercoaster of optimism on this upgrade options thing, I have to say that while very interesting and maybe useful to many, there are many unknowns remaining, and that is helping fuel some contentious speculation. Please do not get me wrong, I think there is some validity for some to feel this is a bit disingenuous.
Say you bought an M8 today, or maybe in a couple months. For openers, the thing costs more now than when introduced, and it is about the only digital camera that seems to have that distinction. Then you are faced with an "option" to upgrade that brand new camera with a new shutter, sapphire LCD, CLA (on a new camera???) and get an extra couple years warranty....all for another 1200 euros. Hmmm.....what happened to that perfectly good old shutter? No rebate? (Heck, even the crafty auto dealers will give you something back for the tires and wheels you removed from that new car for an upgraded set.)
Without knowing what additional options "may" become available, nor at what cost, nor when, it is really hard to do any realistic economic planning for that TCO (total cost of ownership) calculation. I especially appreciate Carlos's comment about having to essentially pay twice for one sensor. Again, we do not know the details, so that may or may not become the case. (My gut tells me that Leica is not about to "buy back" your old sensor, even if it was from a brand new camera at the time of upgrade.) That just does not seem right, somehow. If the new sensor was available, why not have a model to support that as a first option for a buyer, rather than buying a "base model" M8 that you must now "trick up" to get to more current level? (And if they do create a new model, let's watch that price point to see if it is merely "base +", which is should not be.)
Again, while I am excited about the option to make upgrading modifications to the M8 over time, I feel less excited about how much some of these are really going to cost. Also, I had been asking about "bundling" as a possible option, i.e., doing several options at once at some reduced cost, since there would be less labor and stuff involved. Does not look like that is in the cards from what Guy had mentioned. That kinda sucks....(sorry for the offense to anybody), and it really does not encourage continued Leica loyalty that they are playing (preying?) upon.
Trying not to pass any more judgments here, as enough have passed. At the same time, I do not want to go skipping down the path as though everything was just wonderful, because a lot is not. The costs are too high, there is no roadmap for upgrades, the timing seems terribly slow, the promise of turnaround has yet to be met by Leica in most folks experience, and, the real kicker.....we get to pay in advance. I understand a deposit, but not paying full freight for something now when you are not going to get things done until August or beyond.
As Maggie pointed out, at this point, Leica has not done anything yet, except possibly lay out some teases and one expensive option upgrade so far. (Does anybody besides me question the shutter story? The quieter shutter I do think is very welcomed, and reduced vibration would be nice also, but is there something inherently flawed with the first version shutter as some have suggested? To me, that would be a recall issue, not an upgrade option.) At the same time, my level of confidence and trust in Leica is not what it once was. My M8 will be 2 years old in November. It works pretty decently now, but has taken a lot of time, energy and extra expenditure to get it up to some reliable speed. There are still lots of things that are still not working the way one should expect from such a top end camera, the SDHC is but one shining example. The thought of constantly tossing more and more money into it just to get it to work the way it should have from the start, or with the features it should have had to start is a bit more galling now that Leica is making this perpetual upgrade program. Why not get things right before asking folks to spend more for other pieces. I would have loved to see a simple option of fixing the shutter release to be smoother, handling SDHC cards, and a few other minor, but important things that become annoying over time. (Just for grins, the glass cover that Apple put on its iPhones is larger than the LCD on the M8, and mine gets a huge amount of rubbing, smudging, going in and out of pockets, etc.,.....far worse than the LCD on the M8, and nary a scratch. Also a lot cheaper.) Things can be done well with good engineering, and Leica has always been fairly strong there. This latest program seems to suggest things can be made better....so why did they not do it right to start? or, why should we have to pay so much more for such a small upgrade....most of which is costmetic and warranty extension?
Rant over.
LJ
P.S. This does sort of look more like the auto industry.....sell the car and then really profit on "upgrades", where the margin is 40-60%.
Say you bought an M8 today, or maybe in a couple months. For openers, the thing costs more now than when introduced, and it is about the only digital camera that seems to have that distinction. Then you are faced with an "option" to upgrade that brand new camera with a new shutter, sapphire LCD, CLA (on a new camera???) and get an extra couple years warranty....all for another 1200 euros. Hmmm.....what happened to that perfectly good old shutter? No rebate? (Heck, even the crafty auto dealers will give you something back for the tires and wheels you removed from that new car for an upgraded set.)
Without knowing what additional options "may" become available, nor at what cost, nor when, it is really hard to do any realistic economic planning for that TCO (total cost of ownership) calculation. I especially appreciate Carlos's comment about having to essentially pay twice for one sensor. Again, we do not know the details, so that may or may not become the case. (My gut tells me that Leica is not about to "buy back" your old sensor, even if it was from a brand new camera at the time of upgrade.) That just does not seem right, somehow. If the new sensor was available, why not have a model to support that as a first option for a buyer, rather than buying a "base model" M8 that you must now "trick up" to get to more current level? (And if they do create a new model, let's watch that price point to see if it is merely "base +", which is should not be.)
Again, while I am excited about the option to make upgrading modifications to the M8 over time, I feel less excited about how much some of these are really going to cost. Also, I had been asking about "bundling" as a possible option, i.e., doing several options at once at some reduced cost, since there would be less labor and stuff involved. Does not look like that is in the cards from what Guy had mentioned. That kinda sucks....(sorry for the offense to anybody), and it really does not encourage continued Leica loyalty that they are playing (preying?) upon.
Trying not to pass any more judgments here, as enough have passed. At the same time, I do not want to go skipping down the path as though everything was just wonderful, because a lot is not. The costs are too high, there is no roadmap for upgrades, the timing seems terribly slow, the promise of turnaround has yet to be met by Leica in most folks experience, and, the real kicker.....we get to pay in advance. I understand a deposit, but not paying full freight for something now when you are not going to get things done until August or beyond.
As Maggie pointed out, at this point, Leica has not done anything yet, except possibly lay out some teases and one expensive option upgrade so far. (Does anybody besides me question the shutter story? The quieter shutter I do think is very welcomed, and reduced vibration would be nice also, but is there something inherently flawed with the first version shutter as some have suggested? To me, that would be a recall issue, not an upgrade option.) At the same time, my level of confidence and trust in Leica is not what it once was. My M8 will be 2 years old in November. It works pretty decently now, but has taken a lot of time, energy and extra expenditure to get it up to some reliable speed. There are still lots of things that are still not working the way one should expect from such a top end camera, the SDHC is but one shining example. The thought of constantly tossing more and more money into it just to get it to work the way it should have from the start, or with the features it should have had to start is a bit more galling now that Leica is making this perpetual upgrade program. Why not get things right before asking folks to spend more for other pieces. I would have loved to see a simple option of fixing the shutter release to be smoother, handling SDHC cards, and a few other minor, but important things that become annoying over time. (Just for grins, the glass cover that Apple put on its iPhones is larger than the LCD on the M8, and mine gets a huge amount of rubbing, smudging, going in and out of pockets, etc.,.....far worse than the LCD on the M8, and nary a scratch. Also a lot cheaper.) Things can be done well with good engineering, and Leica has always been fairly strong there. This latest program seems to suggest things can be made better....so why did they not do it right to start? or, why should we have to pay so much more for such a small upgrade....most of which is costmetic and warranty extension?
Rant over.
LJ
P.S. This does sort of look more like the auto industry.....sell the car and then really profit on "upgrades", where the margin is 40-60%.
Last edited:
jonoslack
Active member
Good Post LJ
it seems to me that the cup is either half full or half empty, depending how you look at it. But let's apply a little common sense.
When the upgrade becomes general, there will quickly be a clamour for new cameras with the quieter shutter - and the idea of sending it straight back is not going to be attractive. So, to my mind, whatever Leica may be saying right now, there will be a market for both 'versions' and if there is a market and they can make them without new production lines or new R&D costs - why on earth wouldn't they? Whatever they might be saying now.
So, like Maggie I'm definitely of the 'half full' persuasion - I would really like one of my cameras to have a quieter shutter and this upgrade will be out right around 2 years in, so it's a bit of a no-brainer.
Certainly, getting hot around the collar about it now when we really don't know what'll happen in the end seems like a rather pointless way of raising the blood pressure.
I like the idea of an upgradeable camera, my M8's have a nice 'lived in' look about them these days, and the idea that I can keep them and still have the latest technology seems fine!
it seems to me that the cup is either half full or half empty, depending how you look at it. But let's apply a little common sense.
When the upgrade becomes general, there will quickly be a clamour for new cameras with the quieter shutter - and the idea of sending it straight back is not going to be attractive. So, to my mind, whatever Leica may be saying right now, there will be a market for both 'versions' and if there is a market and they can make them without new production lines or new R&D costs - why on earth wouldn't they? Whatever they might be saying now.
So, like Maggie I'm definitely of the 'half full' persuasion - I would really like one of my cameras to have a quieter shutter and this upgrade will be out right around 2 years in, so it's a bit of a no-brainer.
Certainly, getting hot around the collar about it now when we really don't know what'll happen in the end seems like a rather pointless way of raising the blood pressure.
I like the idea of an upgradeable camera, my M8's have a nice 'lived in' look about them these days, and the idea that I can keep them and still have the latest technology seems fine!