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Thread: Update from PMA

  1. #1
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Update from PMA

    Hi everyone it's been a long day and Jack and i actually drove from LV to Moab Utah and i drove from Phoenix to LV early this morning , so I am wiped out but after a 2 hour sit down with 5 leica folks with Jack and i it was real clear to us what all this silly language really comes down too. Lot's of words for a very basic concept. First and foremost the Leica M8 will always be a leica M8 and be built exactly like it is today period, call it the base model . Just like you go to a car dealer and order a BMW 325 base model. Exactly like that Leica will not make a upgraded camera to be sold as a upgrade camera. A dealer may actually have 5 bodies sent to Leica and have a upgrade installed and sell it like that at his price but LEICA will only make a base model. Now just like a car you order options for a BMW there is a sports package , performace package and let's say a off road package you don't need one to have the other. Same with Leica the first upgrade package is LCD, shutter the next upgrade or number two will be what ever technology is available that they can install on the base M8 than let's say there is another upgrade call that number 3.

    Now you can skip number 1 and get number 2 or get number 1 and skip number two and also get number 3 . So you can pick and chose your options and you don't need 1 option to get a another. No preference you can bounce around with the 3 let's say and also get them at any time you want . So let's say you want number 1 option, you can wait if you really want to until number 3 comes out and still get number 1.


    Now no matter what when you get a upgrade you get a 2 year warranty from that time you have it done.So folks like me that my orginal warranty ends November this year , if I had a upgrade in August than my new warranty is now starting in August 08 and ends 2010 but if I add upgrade option 2 in Next Feb than i get a 2 year warranty from that date.
    I have to go over all my notes and try to compile all the questions but this part covers quite a few questions right off the bat.

    Now you pay for this first upgrade in March to get scheduled for August . Like i said in another thread this is to guarntee your place in line for scheduling and Leica will charge you ahead of time because than you are committed to the schedule. So yes you have to pay to play , just like a concert ticket you pay for it in advance than go 3 months later.

    But this sole purpose is to make sure your scheduled upgrade gets done in 4 weeks . Like I said early if you can schedule according to the work load that can be handled than there are no delays. This is not like repairs where 1000 units show up and not enough man power to handle it. With this program they have a number that can done in exactly 4 weeks and let's say that is 300 a month than if your number is 301 well you go to next month. First come first serve basis.

    I have to go back and read my notes and make some comments later just to beat up right now but I will add Jack and i did play with the upgraded camera and it is significant noise reduction and also it is smoother to release the shutter also. Which BTW we both said we are getting the upgrade. It was really sweet i have to say and i know i could easily pick up a stop on the slow side.

    Check in later
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Thank you Guy
    Well, I think it's all excellent news - I'll certainly be up for my voucher for one of my bodies at least
    Many thanks for the information

    Just this guy you know

  3. #3
    docolmo
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Q1. Does that mean, if I buy a second-hand basic M8, say 5 years from now, and I send if for upgrade, I get a new warranty from that date?

    Q2. I wonder, when inspecting a second-hand M8, how can one tell an LCD screen is the standard one or the sapphire glass one?

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by docolmo View Post
    Q1. Does that mean, if I buy a second-hand basic M8, say 5 years from now, and I send if for upgrade, I get a new warranty from that date?

    Q2. I wonder, when inspecting a second-hand M8, how can one tell an LCD screen is the standard one or the sapphire glass one?
    You take a shot. If it is quiet, it is the sapphire screen

    Maybe it'll have a harder sound if you tap it with a round metal object?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by docolmo View Post
    Q1. Does that mean, if I buy a second-hand basic M8, say 5 years from now, and I send if for upgrade, I get a new warranty from that date?


    That is correct


    Q2. I wonder, when inspecting a second-hand M8, how can one tell an LCD screen is the standard one or the sapphire glass one?

    Very easy the upgraded camera the shutter dial is the external change to 1/4000 . I tend to think the sapphire will be shiner too
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by docolmo View Post
    Q1. Does that mean, if I buy a second-hand basic M8, say 5 years from now, and I send if for upgrade, I get a new warranty from that date?
    Yes it does!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Update from PMA

    You up . Espresso machine rolling.

    Can't sleep either. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Update from PMA

    So..I guess Black Paint isnt quite yet an option...pft.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    BTW price for the first upgrade is 1200 Euros period. So whatever the conversion rate for the US at time of CC charge than whatever your CC company charges at that time. It's 1200
    Euro's for EVERYONE and it is a pick up from your door and delivered to your door , no drop off to any service center to have it done.


    Btw if you buy a used M8 on e-bay let's say you send it in for a upgrade you get a 2 year warranty.


    Another note Leica has come out with a new skin that you can actually buy through customer service it is a Vulcanite skin. Now this is seperate from the upgrade and any camera can be sent in to have this done.

    All upgrades will come back with a normal skin and this is a seperate line item. Not sure if you can have it done though at upgrade time and will check into that but this is a repair dept. item so I kind of doubt it. The upgrades are coming from the production line which is seperate from repair. So folks that have replaced there skin on there own maybe wise to remove it before upgrade ,Leica will put a normal skin on it after upgrading it

    Let me go over another issue if you want to buy a M8 with a upgrade than this strictly is a dealer option. Basically they send several of there bodies to Leica get the upgrade and sell them but this is a dealer option if they chose to do that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You up . Espresso machine rolling.

    Can't sleep either. LOL
    I slept like a rock. I'll be over in a jiffy for some espresso though
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Lucky you . I'm here . LOL and did you look outside , very nice
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Hmmmm......
    You both are mighty silent on the future....as in what is possible at Photokina time.

  13. #13
    Digital Dude
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Another note Leica has come out with a new skin that you can actually buy through customer service it is a Vulcanite skin. Now this is seperate from the upgrade and any camera can be sent in to have this done...
    That’s interesting to hear; by chance do you know what it looks like i.e. any photos? Based on a prototype I saw elsewhere, I would think it resembles Camel leather’s “Black Beauty” (except not so shiny) but I’m just guessing here.
    Regards,
    Last edited by Digital Dude; 3rd February 2008 at 06:36. Reason: added content

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Any R news?

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Thanks for all the info on the update, Guy and Jack. I feel a lot better about it now. My warranty is up in November and I'll probably do the upgrade.

    I hope everyone in Moab has a great workshop. Wish I was there!

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Any R news?
    No one is talking except wait until Photokinia. hell i already knew that, want details
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Hmmmm......
    You both are mighty silent on the future....as in what is possible at Photokina time.
    We'll share some more detail with you in Moab
    Jack
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Dude View Post
    That’s interesting to hear; by chance do you know what it looks like i.e. any photos? Based on a prototype I saw elsewhere, I would think it resembles Camel leather’s “Black Beauty” (except not so shiny) but I’m just guessing here.
    Regards,
    It is EXACTLY the same material they're putting on the base MP. Basically a bit more nubby and grippy than the standard M8 fare.

    To clarify one of Guy's comments above, any CUSTOM coverings you may have on your camera will be discarded and replaced with stock M8 material on the update... So if you have a special CameraLeather cover, you will want to strip it and send in a naked M8 for the upgrade --- I confirmed that this will not affect (impair) the upgrade process at all.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  19. #19
    espressogeek
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    Re: Update from PMA

    So if leica will only make a base model m8 please tell me that when a larger number of pixels becomes avaiable I dont have to pay for the sensor twice, once for the 10mp and again for the (insert your dream number of megapixels here )megapixels. Or will the M8 only be a 10mp camera and the upgrades will only enhance the M8 package.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Hmmmm......
    You both are mighty silent on the future....as in what is possible at Photokina time.

    I'm for sale. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by espressogeek View Post
    So if leica will only make a base model m8 please tell me that when a larger number of pixels becomes avaiable I dont have to pay for the sensor twice, once for the 10mp and again for the (insert your dream number of megapixels here )megapixels. Or will the M8 only be a 10mp camera and the upgrades will only enhance the M8 package.
    Exactly the M8 will only be a 10 mpx camera and to get bigger and better it will have to come from the upgrades
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Wow, I see espressogeek's concern here... if you order a new (stock) M8, and then get a sensor upgrade, do you get a refund or trade-in value for the brand new, unused 10MP sensor? If not, he's right, you just bought two sensors! Or, put more succinctly put, you just bought Leica a sensor that they can stick in the next stock body. Now that's a rip!

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    Re: Update from PMA

    "You just bought two sensors." Same thing with the shutter: buy a new camera, then pay extra for a second shutter. I think this is not a wise marketing move.

    And what do they do with the new shutter, sensor, or whatever they remove from your new camera after you or your dealer has returned it to Germany for an upgrade?

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    Wow, I see espressogeek's concern here... if you order a new (stock) M8, and then get a sensor upgrade, do you get a refund or trade-in value for the brand new, unused 10MP sensor? If not, he's right, you just bought two sensors! Or, put more succinctly put, you just bought Leica a sensor that they can stick in the next stock body. Now that's a rip!
    Perhaps that is on the M8 and when there is a new sensor there will be an M9 making 2 models....

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "You just bought two sensors." Same thing with the shutter: buy a new camera, then pay extra for a second shutter. I think this is not a wise marketing move.
    Agree with that - When this emerged as a rumor on the LUF, my comment there was that it made no marketing sense............................now it's a fact, it still makes no sense to me(!)

    Sandy

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Pass the salt, y'all.

    Oh, and I have a brand new rope here if anyone is planning on hanging themselves.


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    Re: Update from PMA

    I can understand that you would be upset at buying a new M8 and have to pay a premium to get it brought up to spec. It stands to reason that once a component becomes obsolete, the base model will be updated to include a newer component/technology, but as long as they have a stock of old component, they will put those in the base system till they run out.

    Apple does this all the time with video cards.
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    Re: Update from PMA

    I'll just point out that Leica hasn't done anything yet, aside from announcing that you can get a different shutter and LCD cover. Why get worked up over something totally non-existent like a hypothetical sensor upgrade? By the time it gets here, who knows what the state of things will be?

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Maggie,

    Why get worked up? You're kidding, right?

    Steve

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    Re: Update from PMA

    No, I'm not kidding.

    Much sound and fury 'round here; signifying nothing.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    To all those who feel that this move by makes no marketing sense: you are correct.

    Neither did bringing out a digital rangefinder that uses lenses that were never, ever designed for digital use.

    Nor building a complex module to convert a non-modular, manually focused SLR into a DSLR.

    Yet, Leica did all of these things. Leica did this because the only thing that kept them alive during the digital revolution were its loyal customers. They revere that loyalty and want it to stay. They seem to have an ethic built around this concept. Why else would they buck the highly lucrative financial model that has served the Japanese photo giants so well?

    Because they are willing to commit. One has to respect that. Sure they cost more but with this model that they propose you have to take the long view.

    Canon/Nikon Model: Rip and Replace
    Over the course of 20 years if you continue to use either of these systems you will spend (assuming you bought a $5000 body every two years and sold the previous body for half price): $27,500.00 USD [eventually camera bodies will end up in a landfill somewhere.]

    Leica Model: Invest and Upgrade
    Purchase an M8 and buy a €1200 upgrade every two years to keep the warranty active: $21,700 (price assumes current conversion rates for the Euro) [much less waste is generated in this model].

    You may feel that I am full of beans with this line of thinking and that is your right. This is the way I look at it and it is a worst-case scenario. One can fiddle those numbers by holding off on "upgrades" and also argue that the US Dollar could get weaker/stronger over the course of the 20 years (it will).
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Purchase an M8 and buy a €1200 upgrade every two years
    OK, let's look, just as a example, at that possibility for future upgrades. (Which, according to Carlos' math is a heck of a deal for the long-term M8 owner- I'm all for something like that!) BUT...at this time Leica has said no such thing about any regular schedule of upgrades or what each upgrade will cost. People have speculated many different scenarios but no one has any facts beyond what is down in black and white on Leica's website. People are getting worked up over speculation and nothing more. I think that's rash. I prefer to bitch about things for which I have empirical evidence. Like my feet! CHRIST, THEY HURT TONIGHT!!!

    Anyways, as Sean says, I know, that's "not very internet of me."

    I like Leica because they do stuff as crazy as the DMR and the M8!

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Well yes, that calculation does have some big assumptions for the sake of an apples-to-apples comparison. The big two average a new Pro body every couple of years (be it a minor update like the Canon 1D Mk2-N or a major refresh like the Mk 3's) and one assumes to keep on the cutting edge one must follow the "upgrade path" such as it is. If one follows the hypothetical situation I presented then yes, there is a sizable savings for the long-term Leica owner. But the one constant is change as they say and all of the speculation is just mental masturbation at its finest.

    Right now we are presented with one optional upgrade and a promise of a really interesting upgrade in the future. That and $4.25 gets you a ride on the Metrorail.
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Buy what your hands and heart like using - these are things that make great photographs and memorable keepsakes. Anyone who holds a Leica in their hand likes them - both the M bodies and the R8/9 bodies are the most beautiful 35mm cameras ever made as far as my eyes, hands and heart are concerned - except for my Alpa gear which is even better.

    We are talking discretionary expenditure here - and excel spreadsheets with a thousand assumptions and multiple linked pivot tables comparing the economics between various sytems over 20 years is abitof fun maybe - but really just use what makes you happy - economics is for stocks and bonds and mistresses....

  35. #35
    workingcamera
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Yep that about sums it up ...

    You don't get into Leica to save money and Leica AG don't expect you to.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    I prefer to bitch about things for which I have empirical evidence...
    Agreed.

    Here's what's empirical:

    Leica is a company in a state of flux and mixed priorities. Cut back warranty service ability, zoom forward pre-paid money making upgrade policies ... leaving behind the effects of the cut-backs in their wake.

    That Leica announces an upgrade program is fine ... but folks with the current iteration $5,000. M8 still can't use a 4 gig SDHC card, or scroll the menu without it going bonkers ... while any rank amateur with a $200. P&S can.

    All that I hope is that they funnel some of the pre-paid funds to servicing current "loyal customer" cameras in need of warranty repair, and provide new firmware for SDHC use.

    NO ONE is more loyal or has spent more money on Leica products than me... yet one of my M8s and 3 lenses are still languishing in their service system, and have done so since December 3rd.

    Two full months out of commision, with no word as to when. I leave for LA next Monday and shooting production stills on set ... which is strictly M territory. But no back-up M8 camera or lenses over 35mm ... they are STILL in Germany on a spa vacation with not so much as a postcard with "wish you were here".

    THAT is empirical fact Maggie O.

  37. #37
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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Leica is a company in a state of flux and mixed priorities. Cut back warranty service ability, zoom forward pre-paid money making upgrade policies ... leaving behind the effects of the cut-backs in their wake.

    Two full months out of commision, with no word as to when. I leave for LA next Monday and shooting production stills on set ... which is strictly M territory. But no back-up M8 camera or lenses over 35mm ... they are STILL in Germany on a spa vacation with not so much as a postcard with "wish you were here".
    1/ Alas marc all too true

    and on the second para... stand in line buddy you aint the only one

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Why else would they buck the highly lucrative financial model that has served the Japanese photo giants so well?
    Didn't we loose some of the Japanese camera brands, while Leica is still around? I am thinking of Minolta, Konica, Ricoh and Contax. The few remaining other than Nikon and Canon are just a shadow of what they once were, such as Pentax and Olympus.

    Maybe Leica's model and their customer loyalty is working?

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    Re: Update from PMA

    After reading through these threads, doing some thinking and even riding my own rollercoaster of optimism on this upgrade options thing, I have to say that while very interesting and maybe useful to many, there are many unknowns remaining, and that is helping fuel some contentious speculation. Please do not get me wrong, I think there is some validity for some to feel this is a bit disingenuous.

    Say you bought an M8 today, or maybe in a couple months. For openers, the thing costs more now than when introduced, and it is about the only digital camera that seems to have that distinction. Then you are faced with an "option" to upgrade that brand new camera with a new shutter, sapphire LCD, CLA (on a new camera???) and get an extra couple years warranty....all for another 1200 euros. Hmmm.....what happened to that perfectly good old shutter? No rebate? (Heck, even the crafty auto dealers will give you something back for the tires and wheels you removed from that new car for an upgraded set.)

    Without knowing what additional options "may" become available, nor at what cost, nor when, it is really hard to do any realistic economic planning for that TCO (total cost of ownership) calculation. I especially appreciate Carlos's comment about having to essentially pay twice for one sensor. Again, we do not know the details, so that may or may not become the case. (My gut tells me that Leica is not about to "buy back" your old sensor, even if it was from a brand new camera at the time of upgrade.) That just does not seem right, somehow. If the new sensor was available, why not have a model to support that as a first option for a buyer, rather than buying a "base model" M8 that you must now "trick up" to get to more current level? (And if they do create a new model, let's watch that price point to see if it is merely "base +", which is should not be.)

    Again, while I am excited about the option to make upgrading modifications to the M8 over time, I feel less excited about how much some of these are really going to cost. Also, I had been asking about "bundling" as a possible option, i.e., doing several options at once at some reduced cost, since there would be less labor and stuff involved. Does not look like that is in the cards from what Guy had mentioned. That kinda sucks....(sorry for the offense to anybody), and it really does not encourage continued Leica loyalty that they are playing (preying?) upon.

    Trying not to pass any more judgments here, as enough have passed. At the same time, I do not want to go skipping down the path as though everything was just wonderful, because a lot is not. The costs are too high, there is no roadmap for upgrades, the timing seems terribly slow, the promise of turnaround has yet to be met by Leica in most folks experience, and, the real kicker.....we get to pay in advance. I understand a deposit, but not paying full freight for something now when you are not going to get things done until August or beyond.

    As Maggie pointed out, at this point, Leica has not done anything yet, except possibly lay out some teases and one expensive option upgrade so far. (Does anybody besides me question the shutter story? The quieter shutter I do think is very welcomed, and reduced vibration would be nice also, but is there something inherently flawed with the first version shutter as some have suggested? To me, that would be a recall issue, not an upgrade option.) At the same time, my level of confidence and trust in Leica is not what it once was. My M8 will be 2 years old in November. It works pretty decently now, but has taken a lot of time, energy and extra expenditure to get it up to some reliable speed. There are still lots of things that are still not working the way one should expect from such a top end camera, the SDHC is but one shining example. The thought of constantly tossing more and more money into it just to get it to work the way it should have from the start, or with the features it should have had to start is a bit more galling now that Leica is making this perpetual upgrade program. Why not get things right before asking folks to spend more for other pieces. I would have loved to see a simple option of fixing the shutter release to be smoother, handling SDHC cards, and a few other minor, but important things that become annoying over time. (Just for grins, the glass cover that Apple put on its iPhones is larger than the LCD on the M8, and mine gets a huge amount of rubbing, smudging, going in and out of pockets, etc.,.....far worse than the LCD on the M8, and nary a scratch. Also a lot cheaper.) Things can be done well with good engineering, and Leica has always been fairly strong there. This latest program seems to suggest things can be made better....so why did they not do it right to start? or, why should we have to pay so much more for such a small upgrade....most of which is costmetic and warranty extension?

    Rant over.

    LJ

    P.S. This does sort of look more like the auto industry.....sell the car and then really profit on "upgrades", where the margin is 40-60%.
    Last edited by LJL; 4th February 2008 at 08:29. Reason: added thought

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Good Post LJ
    it seems to me that the cup is either half full or half empty, depending how you look at it. But let's apply a little common sense.

    When the upgrade becomes general, there will quickly be a clamour for new cameras with the quieter shutter - and the idea of sending it straight back is not going to be attractive. So, to my mind, whatever Leica may be saying right now, there will be a market for both 'versions' and if there is a market and they can make them without new production lines or new R&D costs - why on earth wouldn't they? Whatever they might be saying now.

    So, like Maggie I'm definitely of the 'half full' persuasion - I would really like one of my cameras to have a quieter shutter and this upgrade will be out right around 2 years in, so it's a bit of a no-brainer.

    Certainly, getting hot around the collar about it now when we really don't know what'll happen in the end seems like a rather pointless way of raising the blood pressure.

    I like the idea of an upgradeable camera, my M8's have a nice 'lived in' look about them these days, and the idea that I can keep them and still have the latest technology seems fine!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    When the upgrade becomes general, there will quickly be a clamour for new cameras with the quieter shutter - and the idea of sending it straight back is not going to be attractive. So, to my mind, whatever Leica may be saying right now, there will be a market for both 'versions' and if there is a market and they can make them without new production lines or new R&D costs - why on earth wouldn't they? Whatever they might be saying now.
    Jono,
    This is pretty much a key point that seems to be lost right now, at least from what Leica is saying, but we will have to see what else may change over time. The thought of buying a brand new M8 "base model" and then having to purchase a separate voucher for an upgrade some several months later seems odd to me. Maybe this is where some dealers may order M8s, have the option upgrades already done, and then sell those to new/prospective buyers. Just knowing that you have a choice of shutters is great (and maybe a choice of sensors later also), but it seem terribly frustrating to then learn that you cannot get a camera that way to start. (What dawned on me later was that as soon as you take ownership of an M8, the in-camera shutter instantly becomes "used", until you are able to send it in for replacement. Same would be true for the sensor and anything else. So what happens to those parts? Will Leica install "used" parts on other cameras for repair, or do they get discarded or sold to some secondary repair market or something?)

    I agree that things are "half full or half empty", and for the most part, I see them as "half full". There are just a few things that really could use some further explication that keep pushing things below the meniscus on that glass and making it feel more "half empty" at times

    LJ

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Jono,
    This is pretty much a key point that seems to be lost right now, at least from what Leica is saying, but we will have to see what else may change over time. The thought of buying a brand new M8 "base model" and then having to purchase a separate voucher for an upgrade some several months later seems odd to me. Maybe this is where some dealers may order M8s, have the option upgrades already done, and then sell those to new/prospective buyers. Just knowing that you have a choice of shutters is great (and maybe a choice of sensors later also), but it seem terribly frustrating to then learn that you cannot get a camera that way to start. (What dawned on me later was that as soon as you take ownership of an M8, the in-camera shutter instantly becomes "used", until you are able to send it in for replacement. Same would be true for the sensor and anything else. So what happens to those parts? Will Leica install "used" parts on other cameras for repair, or do they get discarded or sold to some secondary repair market or something?)

    I agree that things are "half full or half empty", and for the most part, I see them as "half full". There are just a few things that really could use some further explication that keep pushing things below the meniscus on that glass and making it feel more "half empty" at times

    LJ
    Interesting - of course, if the new shutters aren't available in volume yet, then it would be a little dangerous for Leica to up and say there will be new cameras with quieter shutters in November - assuming half the potential buyers think the speed/volume exchange is a good one, then they're going to lose some sales!

    Things change, and I'm sure that this will change, but I think that the concept is fine, and if they're not being entirely clear about it right now . . . perhaps that's not too surprising!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Jono,
    I agree with you here. If the new shutters are not yet available, this program is a way to gauge some volume for the replacement line facility, as well as the parts inventory. By November, there may be an option to buy a new M8 and immediately have the shutter and LCD cover swapped without lengthy delay. That would be nice, and it would still cater to the existing M8 owners to get the goods earlier than the general market.

    I do like the upgrade option concept. I would like to know more plans sooner, but as you say, it is not always clear from Leica. It seems like this entire program could become "a la carte version 2" for Leica, and that is not a bad thing either, but the delivery time has to be kept shorter for those wanting a new camera.

    Until it really starts to roll out, we all need to be a bit patient and open in our thinking, and just go shoot pictures while waiting. For me, I would love to have the new shutter, a smoother shutter release, SDHC capability, a bigger buffer, and later, the option for a new sensor and electronics to keep the camera cutting edge. Those are more functional upgrades in my mind. Like you, I enjoy the feel of my present camera, and really do not see a need to replace that relationship....just spruce up some parts.

    LJ

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    Re: Update from PMA

    I'm really mixed on this one.

    On the one hand, it's nice to know that if I buy something, I won't have to buy a whole replacement camera and can simply upgrade my current camera.

    But on the other hand, as time moves forward, prices with regards to technology come down (for the most part). And the last thing I'm going to want to do is buy a $5k camera, and then have to do 3 upgrades to it for another $5k.

    IMO, it would be nice for them to, once they've rolled this out for all previous owners who were interested, start buying these new models as the "base" model.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    I am not surprised to hear that you haven't got your Leica stuff back Marc - January is pretty much an unofficial holiday in Europe.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I am not surprised to hear that you haven't got your Leica stuff back Marc - January is pretty much an unofficial holiday in Europe.
    So Peter

    I have not heard from you for awhile and would love to know how you like the DMR and the 35-70 Elmarit. Also the 70-180 although you have already said that it is large, heavy and hard to keep steady. But the IQ, as I remember it, is sensational.

    Anyway, let me know how you are doing. I am super glad that those physical problems are now under control. God that is scary stuff

    All the best

    Woody

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    Re: Update from PMA

    I have sent you a message Woody.

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    Thumbs up Re: Update from PMA

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Good Post LJ
    ...it seems to me that the cup is either half full or half empty, depending how you look at it. But let's apply a little common sense...I like the idea of an upgradeable camera, my M8's have a nice 'lived in' look about them these days, and the idea that I can keep them and still have the latest technology seems fine!
    I feel the same way although my M8 is new so I can’t leverage the same “no brainer” perspective. Still, the worthless US dollar will motivate me to purchase the upgrade before the € vs. $ nearly doubles.
    Regards,
    Last edited by Digital Dude; 5th February 2008 at 05:54.

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    Re: Update from PMA

    "Still, the worthless US dollar will motivate me to purchase the upgrade before the € vs. $ nearly doubles."

    Or you can buy FXE shares. Each share represents 100 Euros; they're currently about $146.50 and pay monthly interest. It's like having a savings account in Euros. You can buy 50 or 100 shares now, and sell when you're ready to buy an upgrade. Or you can keep them and claim to whoever cares that they somehow make your buying more stuff less stupid. They're like a hedge against Leica prices.

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