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Thread: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Will it be a Leica camera or Panasonic wrapped in sl body!! Double the price either way

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    Will it be a Leica camera or Panasonic wrapped in sl body!! Double the price either way
    Leica SL2 will be a Leica. Even if it had the same sensor it would still be a Leica. The user interface and menue system alone between Leica and Panasonic is sooo different. I can not image Leica will change this with the SL2.
    The only Leica products which are relabled products from other brands are the compact cameras and the Nissin flashes.
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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    creating a menu system is not innovation, leica is taking S1R, changing the menu system and the case (body), this is not innovation. the problem I see is less and less R&D investment in digital cameras.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    creating a menu system is not innovation, leica is taking S1R, changing the menu system and the case (body), this is not innovation. the problem I see is less and less R&D investment in digital cameras.
    How big is the commonality between S1R and SL2? It makes sense that Panasonic and Leica would collaborate, L-mount alliance also extends into component sharing. But I do not see any hints that SL2 will be a repackaged S1R (and testers have confirmed that SL2 is not a clone of S1R).

    According to the latest rumors, SL2 uses a sensor similar to Q2, uses the Maestro III processor (vs Venus), and a different EVF (5.76m vs 5.2m). We'll know for sure tomorrow.

    My hope is that M-lenses would work as well on SL2 as they work on SL.

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    no, the same view finder. 5.7, same cmos, may be even the same processor but rebranded but for sure a different menu


    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    How big is the commonality between S1R and SL2? It makes sense that Panasonic and Leica would collaborate, L-mount alliance also extends into component sharing. But I do not see any hints that SL2 will be a repackaged S1R (and testers have confirmed that SL2 is not a clone of S1R).

    According to the latest rumors, SL2 uses a sensor similar to Q2, uses the Maestro III processor (vs Venus), and a different EVF (5.76m vs 5.2m). We'll know for sure tomorrow.

    My hope is that M-lenses would work as well on SL2 as they work on SL.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    no, the same view finder. 5.7,
    The latest leaked specs show that indeed, both SL2 and S1R have the same EVF resolution. They also have the same viewfinder eyepoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    same cmos, may be even the same processor but rebranded but for sure a different menu
    Do you mean the same sensor (including custom toppings)? Could be. SL2 seems to have the same multi-shot capability as S1R.

    But the output of the sensor is vastly determined by the processor. There is no hint anywhere that Maestro III is only a rebranded Venus processor. Leica has put a lot of effort into developing their Maestro series, doubt they would abandon it.
    As mentioned, an owner of S1R and beta tester of SL2 reported on LUF that SL2 is not a clone of S1R.

    I hope that SL2 will work better with M lenses than S1R.

    Soon we can discuss facts instead of speculations.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    the problem I see is less and less R&D investment in digital cameras.
    If true (I don't have any data) I can still understand it. The market is shrinking, the margins are under pressure, R&D is expensive so companies start working together to leverage each others R&D (L-mount alliance is an example, but there are more). Same is happening in the car industry, more and more similar platforms with a different cloak rather than really fundamentally different designs. I like this better than the alternative which is several companies withdrawing and being left with very few brands, higher prices and less competition.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    Will it be a Leica camera or Panasonic wrapped in sl body!! Double the price either way
    Well you've kind hit the nail on the head regarding the SL2 - if it is 'just' a Panasonic it could be a tricky sell to existing users.

    Leica see the SL series as where they want to spend their most digital development dollar (fwiw).

    There are a few issues with SL and Leica that 'bug' a lot of users the two most prominent being - autofocus capability V eg Sony/Fuji and the silly Leica 'standard' for lighting - which means using studio lighting able to employ TTL and HSS is not on . It seems that the lighting 'issue' isn't being addressed and the SL2 will have the same autofocus system as panasonic we will know in a day.

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well you've kind hit the nail on the head regarding the SL2 - if it is 'just' a Panasonic it could be a tricky sell to existing users.

    Leica see the SL series as where they want to spend their most digital development dollar (fwiw).

    There are a few issues with SL and Leica that 'bug' a lot of users the two most prominent being - autofocus capability V eg Sony/Fuji and the silly Leica 'standard' for lighting - which means using studio lighting able to employ TTL and HSS is not on . It seems that the lighting 'issue' isn't being addressed and the SL2 will have the same autofocus system as panasonic we will know in a day.

    OH, leica flash!! this is one thing leica insists to use thier very own, i wish, they would have picked the Panasonic standard!

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner


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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Sean Reid has published his SL2 review on reidreviews.com (subscription required)

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    So the addition of more microlenses to support M lenses is a plus but it seems leica is being conservative with the AF now. based on the review in dpreview, it seems it will take couple firmware to fully be as fast as the panasonic s1r. just about double the price, still not bad. battery life not good, but they should be able to roll out a better battery!

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    creating a menu system is not innovation, leica is taking S1R, changing the menu system and the case (body), this is not innovation. the problem I see is less and less R&D investment in digital cameras.
    Well, it's not an S1R at least

    Certainly some of the technology is coming from Panasonic (L mount consortium etc.) but the video abilities are more like the S1H (without the benefit of a fan and longer recording) Certainly better than the S1 - and a country mile better than the S1r

    It's not just a new menu system - the focusing is radically modified the body completely different.

    File format (and therefore colour etc.) are different. For what it's worth, here's my bit:

    Https://www.slack.co.uk/leica-sl2.html

    Best
    Jono

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, it's not an S1R at least

    Certainly some of the technology is coming from Panasonic (L mount consortium etc.) but the video abilities are more like the S1H (without the benefit of a fan and longer recording) Certainly better than the S1 - and a country mile better than the S1r

    It's not just a new menu system - the focusing is radically modified the body completely different.

    File format (and therefore colour etc.) are different. For what it's worth, here's my bit:

    Https://www.slack.co.uk/leica-sl2.html

    Best
    Jono
    Hi Jono, i did read your review and very nice as always. i like it, thay you always find the good in everything!

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Looks like a great addition but I also agree that itís a harder sell for those that arenít ďLeica diehardsĒ when you can get 95% of the camera for 2/3 the price in Lumix wrapping. Even still, if using M lenses is still important this is likely a better choice than the Panasonic version as the lens corrections will likely be built into the firmware already.

    Regarding whether this is a Panasonic or a Leica... I suspect the truest answer is that it is both. Part of the L-mount alliance is a technology sharing platform and Leica has been using DFD technology since the Q and SL. Adding similar IVIS technology is a logical next step given that Panasonic has the beat on the business. It was ďwhisperedĒ that Panasonic was doing a lot of background development on the Q and SL cameras back 4 or 5 years ago due to the rumors around TowerJazz designing the sensors for both. It would make a lot of sense that they were a silent partner in development. It would make a lot of sense that they were both invested in the success of the L-mount to see how far the alliance should go. Adding Sigma adds another company to share costs with and have natural product diversification. This also meshes with some of the Panasonic interviews regarding the LUMIX S development which places the the desire to add FF cameras back 8 years ago and the beginning of development for the LUMIX S to the 2015 timeframe. I donít see this as a negative as itís a relationship that makes sense with Panasonicís expertise in electronics and Leicaís in lens design. I donít know why SOME get offended at the notion but with rising R&D costs it behooves more companies to have symbiotic relationships and to share R&D cost by utilizing COTS parts where you can and custom one off processors where needed to achieve a desired result. Literally every industry does this and there are few companies that do it all. Not even a company like Sony does it all as they have strategic partnerships with Zeiss, Tamron, Samsung, etc. and theyíve also made strategic purchases where it made sense.

    Also donít be surprised to see a series of L-mount cinema/video cameras from both Panasonic and Leica (within the next 2-5 years) that also present a ďone mountĒ strategic partnership thatíll accept not only L mount lenses but EF and PL mount ones as well through smart adapters. Thereís a market for that thatís barely tapped IMO. Really only Sony is doing it now but I expect Canon to eventually move all of their Cinema EOS cameras to RF and perhaps Nikon will jump in as well once they have a healthier outlook for the company as a whole.

    Just my opinion though.
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    creating a menu system is not innovation, leica is taking S1R, changing the menu system and the case (body), this is not innovation. the problem I see is less and less R&D investment in digital cameras.
    Ah, ok , then Panasonic took SL and changed the sensor to more MP and more noise. Is this innovation?
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Looks like a great addition but I also agree that itís a harder sell for those that arenít ďLeica diehardsĒ when you can get 95% of the camera for 2/3 the price in Lumix wrapping. Even still, if using M lenses is still important this is likely a better choice than the Panasonic version as the lens corrections will likely be built into the firmware already.

    Regarding whether this is a Panasonic or a Leica... I suspect the truest answer is that it is both. Part of the L-mount alliance is a technology sharing platform and Leica has been using DFD technology since the Q and SL. Adding similar IVIS technology is a logical next step given that Panasonic has the beat on the business. It was ďwhisperedĒ that Panasonic was doing a lot of background development on the Q and SL cameras back 4 or 5 years ago due to the rumors around TowerJazz designing the sensors for both. It would make a lot of sense that they were a silent partner in development. It would make a lot of sense that they were both invested in the success of the L-mount to see how far the alliance should go. Adding Sigma adds another company to share costs with and have natural product diversification. This also meshes with some of the Panasonic interviews regarding the LUMIX S development which places the the desire to add FF cameras back 8 years ago and the beginning of development for the LUMIX S to the 2015 timeframe. I donít see this as a negative as itís a relationship that makes sense with Panasonicís expertise in electronics and Leicaís in lens design. I donít know why SOME get offended at the notion but with rising R&D costs it behooves more companies to have symbiotic relationships and to share R&D cost by utilizing COTS parts where you can and custom one off processors where needed to achieve a desired result. Literally every industry does this and there are few companies that do it all. Not even a company like Sony does it all as they have strategic partnerships with Zeiss, Tamron, Samsung, etc. and theyíve also made strategic purchases where it made sense.

    Also donít be surprised to see a series of L-mount cinema/video cameras from both Panasonic and Leica (within the next 2-5 years) that also present a ďone mountĒ strategic partnership thatíll accept not only L mount lenses but EF and PL mount ones as well through smart adapters. Thereís a market for that thatís barely tapped IMO. Really only Sony is doing it now but I expect Canon to eventually move all of their Cinema EOS cameras to RF and perhaps Nikon will jump in as well once they have a healthier outlook for the company as a whole.

    Just my opinion though.
    Good points. To me, the ergonomics of SL2 and the camera itself look better than S1R. S1R overlaps with my Z 7, so I am not interested in S1R. But SL2's simplicity, M lens compatibility, and abeing able to use my existing Leica L-mount zooms, make SL2 interesting. Hope Leica will add focus shift shooting and mutiple exposure in a later firmware update.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Also donít be surprised to see a series of L-mount cinema/video cameras from both Panasonic and Leica (within the next 2-5 years) that also present a ďone mountĒ strategic partnership thatíll accept not only L mount lenses but EF and PL mount ones as well through smart adapters. Thereís a market for that thatís barely tapped IMO. Really only Sony is doing it now but I expect Canon to eventually move all of their Cinema EOS cameras to RF and perhaps Nikon will jump in as well once they have a healthier outlook for the company as a whole.

    Just my opinion though.
    Hi There
    I think one of the interesting things about the SL2 is how video centric it is, supporting anamorphic lenses, 400 mbps to SD card Vlog etc. etc. As I understand it, it is only really inferior to the Panasonic S1H in that it has no internal fan - and of course it has more resolution.

    Best

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    Senior Member msadat's Avatar
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    i think it is great to share technology, all good. the relevance of leica as a camera maker will be diminished if the sharing is oneway. this again is not leica bashing, the more leica investment in R&D, the better the alliance. that's it.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    i think it is great to share technology, all good. the relevance of leica as a camera maker will be diminished if the sharing is oneway. this again is not leica bashing, the more leica investment in R&D, the better the alliance. that's it.
    The sensor "topping" seems to be different. Apart from different microlenses, Leica seems to have reduced the layers of glass from 3 to 2 (less reflection?).

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Good points. To me, the ergonomics of SL2 and the camera itself look better than S1R. S1R overlaps with my Z 7, so I am not interested in S1R. But SL2's simplicity, M lens compatibility, and abeing able to use my existing Leica L-mount zooms, make SL2 interesting. Hope Leica will add focus shift shooting and mutiple exposure in a later firmware update.
    Fair enough and I understand that. I’d also say the SL2 overlaps and perhaps exceeds the function of a Z7 in many ways where video is concerned. Personally I get the subjective taste of the individual, functionally though the cameras are largely the same between the LUMIX S and the SL2. Which is a good thing in that there’s some differentiation within the L-Mount system. Personally I feel like it would be a real positive for Leica to follow up the SL2 with a 24 megapixel QL camera that’s essentially something that gives a “M-like” form factor in a L-Mount body.

    According to DPReview, the sensor shift is already planned with the intent to deliver by Summer 2020 via firmware upgrade.
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    I think one of the interesting things about the SL2 is how video centric it is, supporting anamorphic lenses, 400 mbps to SD card Vlog etc. etc. As I understand it, it is only really inferior to the Panasonic S1H in that it has no internal fan - and of course it has more resolution.

    Best
    I agree with all you say but most of that largely seems to be a function of the software and firmware choices. Judging by the specs the internals are nearly identical which leads me to the belief that either camera could likely support similar features as evidenced by the talk of the image shifting features coming to the SL2 in Summer 2020.

    This is kinda reinforced given the firmware updates Panasonic has recently bounced for the LUMIX G cameras. Clearly many cameras can do a lot more than companies allow initially... which also brings me to a philosophical dilemma about firmware updates and the use of them for marketing purposes but I guess itís a discussion for another day. Not so much for bug fixes but for adding huge features present in ďsisterĒ cameras.
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    We will have wait for honest reviews that have a little more depth vs hype to see how the cameras functionality will preform. Very skimpy or general comments about AF except for a few who say itís just wont cut it. All the marketing fuzz with most reviews showing similar images and some even using the exact same video footage is suspect. There is a lot to like about this new version and if you already own some glass itís a no brainer...however to re invest AF needs to be an 8-9 on a scale of 1=10!

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by bab View Post
    We will have wait for honest reviews that have a little more depth vs hype to see how the cameras functionality will preform. Very skimpy or general comments about AF except for a few who say it’s just wont cut it. All the marketing fuzz with most reviews showing similar images and some even using the exact same video footage is suspect. There is a lot to like about this new version and if you already own some glass it’s a no brainer...however to re invest AF needs to be an 8-9 on a scale of 1=10!
    Hello, I don’t want to suggest that any of the reviewers aren’t being “honest” about their impressions though I can understand the reluctance to take everything at face value given that many of the people invited to the event have specific usage needs that may not overlap with a traditional photographer. There’s also the reality that Leica paid for accommodations for people to visit their HQ at Wetzler. I believe as a professional, a person can remain objective and critical without harshness (as I feel the DPReview crew, Petapixel, Hugh Brownstone, The Snapchick, and some others were being) and to the point I also feel Jonoslack always is though perhaps even less harsh than many want from him. I believe that’s called professional courtesy and it’s why people receive invitations to work. People have personal/professional relationships with the people behind the company and it’s a little harder to want to tear into a company when you understand how hard they work on products... and I don’t know that it’s necessary in a time where many opinions come across as hit pieces for clickbait whether it’s people comparing card slots numbers, mount sizes, death of Micro 4/3, menu system organization, death of Medium Format, etc. I do believe that a person can be critical without harshness and I think a more telling thing is that many are looking at the SL2 and trying to figure out how to buy one. The reality is that there hasn’t been a bad camera produced by a major manufacturer in the last 5+ years. Surely some are better at some things than others but that may just suggest the need for a workaround workflow.

    I did find it interesting to see Leica reach out to so many of the most popular content creators in the Youtube community which I do believe is a smart thing for them to do for a number of reasons but primarily to get a younger demographic more interested in Leica cameras. Many of the people review tech in general and not just cameras so they had perhaps a different take on the camera in that pretty much any camera from a smartphone/action cam to a RED cinema camera will “do” for them.

    I think by most accounts AF performance is very dependent on the type of photography that one does. Most reviewers will objectively state that for sports and birds in flight - it’s best to pick a different camera right now that employs PDAF for a higher keeper rate. A number I kept hearing thrown around is 80-90% accuracy hit rates. This doesn’t sound bad in theory until you think about the expectation of having to cull 200-500 shots off the top due to missed focus before you even get to figure out which are keepers if one was shooting a wedding or event where you took 2000-2500 shots throughout the day... assuming one is depending on the AF system being pushed to the edge of its potential. In any case perhaps this is only in extreme usage and perhaps the keeper rate is higher for less demanding and slower shooters.

    I‘m a person that believes that eventually CDAF/DFD will eventually get to a point to where the difference between it and PDAF will become a negligible one once the processing power to perform the necessary calculations and the mathematical functions/computer code improves much further. This may take another generation or two IMO. For many uses (such as portraits, weddings, travel, landscape, commercial, etc.) I understand that it’s already there. Most tend to voice opinions that where speed and accuracy is concerned, in erratically moving photo subjects, that it’s not to be fully trusted yet with the caveat of depending on WHAT you shoot. I think for most it’ll be fine but that’s a lot of money to pay for uncertainty without personal hands-on time.

    Leica seems to be doing the usual touch and try events throughout their network of Leica stores soon. Got an email about it yesterday but I’m not living close to a Leica store anymore. I used to visit the one in the Bay Area when I lived in California and DC when I had meetings (often) in that area. Now I’d have to wait and see if the local dealer gets a body. They don’t move many Leica’s (though they are a dealer) and they stopped carrying Panasonic (for what I personally feel is a bit of an “elitist” argument on their end) which I personally asked about if that will ever change again. I mean they carry Olympus and I’m sure there are more GH bodies being sold than OM-D’s in USA but that’s a topic for another board.
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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well you've kind hit the nail on the head regarding the SL2 - if it is 'just' a Panasonic it could be a tricky sell to existing users.

    Leica see the SL series as where they want to spend their most digital development dollar (fwiw).

    There are a few issues with SL and Leica that 'bug' a lot of users the two most prominent being - autofocus capability V eg Sony/Fuji and the silly Leica 'standard' for lighting - which means using studio lighting able to employ TTL and HSS is not on . It seems that the lighting 'issue' isn't being addressed and the SL2 will have the same autofocus system as panasonic we will know in a day.
    Peter

    You are correct in that those are the two BIG limitations of the S1R and I expect the SL2 . It appears that they may have made some improvement in Focus Tracking (which was not really usable in the SL ) . They have a dedicated preset for Sports and claim to have AI learning capabilities . Target acquisition was faster and better with the S1R than the SL but tracking was not good . Because its CDAF it will not match the N/C/S PDAF but it might be getting closer . (and no banding issues from PDAF) .

    The lack of a common strobe interface is not excusable ...as the Panasonic S1 now has a Profoto compatibility . A Pro Camera must have flash compatibility .

    The other difference that could matter is the addition of microlenses to the sensor making use of the M wide angles reasonable .

    Its very close to what I hoped for and better in many areas . The SL Primes are the very best Leica Glass ..no doubts .

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The SL Primes are the very best Leica Glass ..no doubts .

    Roger
    Right, but I think that the Nikon Z 1.8 primes are not really worse if at all for a fraction of the cost. Just my 5c

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Right, but I think that the Nikon Z 1.8 primes are not really worse if at all for a fraction of the cost. Just my 5c
    Based on personal experience, or by reported technical measurements?

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Based on personal experience, or by reported technical measurements?
    I compared the Z 50/1.8 to the Leica 50/1.4 SL for some shots and the Nikon lens held up pretty well. One area where I prefer Leica is color, I dont know how much is from sensor, how much from lens and how much from profiles/SW.
    In regards of zooms I would think that the SL Zooms are class leading.

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Peter

    You are correct in that those are the two BIG limitations of the S1R and I expect the SL2 . It appears that they may have made some improvement in Focus Tracking (which was not really usable in the SL ) . They have a dedicated preset for Sports and claim to have AI learning capabilities . Target acquisition was faster and better with the S1R than the SL but tracking was not good . Because its CDAF it will not match the N/C/S PDAF but it might be getting closer . (and no banding issues from PDAF) .

    The lack of a common strobe interface is not excusable ...as the Panasonic S1 now has a Profoto compatibility . A Pro Camera must have flash compatibility .

    The other difference that could matter is the addition of microlenses to the sensor making use of the M wide angles reasonable .

    Its very close to what I hoped for and better in many areas . The SL Primes are the very best Leica Glass ..no doubts .

    Roger
    Hi Roger,

    Yes the SL primes ( and TL) are according to Leica at themselves - the 'best' they make. I'll be adding a 35 and 75 to my kit - and it is an added bonus to be able to use them on an CL body as well - for a 'gain' in reach if required. With all the primes coming out - the SL is starting to look like a genuine replacement for the R series camera - except with autofocus.

    happy shooting.
    Pete

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    Re: Leica sl2 should be around the corner

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Roger,

    Yes the SL primes ( and TL) are according to Leica at themselves - the 'best' they make. I'll be adding a 35 and 75 to my kit - and it is an added bonus to be able to use them on an CL body as well - for a 'gain' in reach if required. With all the primes coming out - the SL is starting to look like a genuine replacement for the R series camera - except with autofocus.

    happy shooting.
    Pete
    The new SL-Summicrons really balance great on the Leica-body, very high priced but handling and more important IQ is excellent. I like the flexibility of the 24-90 or 16-35, but for me the Summicrons are just the right size for this system-therefore I plan to use the primes more often in the future. I really love the handling and the results.
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