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Thread: M10 Monochrome

  1. #51
    Senior Member JohnBrew's Avatar
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    I know that if I buy one I will do my best to wear that sucker out.

    (But I want one in classic chrome!)
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  2. #52
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    I know that if I buy one I will do my best to wear that sucker out.

    (But I want one in classic chrome!)
    Classic chrome...now you're talking John.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Yes, very tempted! (if only I had the cash)... it's one of two digital cameras that actually excite me... The other is the new Hasselblad back that I can pair with my 500 c/m.

    Question: I have seen several YouTube videos out on the new M10M... one reviewer states that it's difficult to nail focus with this amount of resolution when shooting wide open. What do you all think about that? And the other thing mentioned was that you would need Leica's very top glass to get the most out of the sensor. Wondering if my lowly circa 90s Summicron 50 would suffice?
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  4. #54
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by gnuyork View Post
    Yes, very tempted! (if only I had the cash)... it's one of two digital cameras that actually excite me... The other is the new Hasselblad back that I can pair with my 500 c/m.

    Question: I have seen several YouTube videos out on the new M10M... one reviewer states that it's difficult to nail focus with this amount of resolution when shooting wide open. What do you all think about that? And the other thing mentioned was that you would need Leica's very top glass to get the most out of the sensor. Wondering if my lowly circa 90s Summicron 50 would suffice?
    This is just my opinion (and general observation), that with regards to getting most out of the sensor such as that in the new M10-M....as with any modern current high end sensor with regards to resolution, of course the highest resolution, best performing lenses will "generally" yield the greatest detail. Yet it's not always about resolution but also the way a lens "draws" and especially (but not exclusively) with regards to Leica, many users love to use many classic lenses from the 1950's on up. This is especially so when B&W imagery is the objective and users of the original MM1 monochrome for example, often resort to using many classic lenses (such as the rigid cron) where primarily the way the lens draws an image is of paramount importance. Each type of lens has it's place.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Sony exceptionalism and Leica hatred are an irresistible combination. Not the only one, sadly. Look what happened to the thread where the OP asked how best to configure a Mac Pro.
    Not for me, I shoot both
    Look at all the hatred spilled in the early Sony mirrorless threads, what's happening here is very gentle and soft in comparison. If you don't like what's happening here take a look at what happened there a few years ago and ask yourself why any Sony shooter is still a member and contributer of GetDPI. It's a pity when arms cannot reach far enough to avoid stepping on someone else's toes.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome


  7. #57
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Maybe on topic, but old news: See post # 25 on page 1

  8. #58
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Ordered on Saturday. It will replace my M240 and may well lead to a cull of two of my 35mm film cameras (M7, MP alc, R5). My MF film cameras are definitely safe from such thoughts. Digital colour? My A7III.
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  9. #59
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Seems like this article is relevant and appropriately on time.

    https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6428...-camera-prices

    In any case Iím looking forward to Images once itís in the hands of people.
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  10. #60
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by gnuyork View Post
    Question: I have seen several YouTube videos out on the new M10M... one reviewer states that it's difficult to nail focus with this amount of resolution when shooting wide open. What do you all think about that? And the other thing mentioned was that you would need Leica's very top glass to get the most out of the sensor. Wondering if my lowly circa 90s Summicron 50 would suffice?
    For 100% monitor view, yes. For a print, no.

    Higher resolutions sensors do not affect focusing accuracy or things like depth of field or other lens qualities under normal viewing conditions. If you like the look of your lens on a lower resolution sensor, a high-resolution one will not change that in a print. Also, the idea that a lens can only take advantage of a sensor with X MP is not true. A higher resolution sensor will always result in recording higher-frequency detail--assuming your lens is not cut out of the bottom of a Coke bottle, which is not the case of your Summicron.

    The problem with 100% view is that it is not a real viewing condition. And as resolution increases, the magnification an image is viewed also increases making things you might not notice in a print more obvious on a screen.

    However, none of that will be useful if you are OCD (not that you could find anyone here that would qualify). If you have to consistently have a "perfect" image at 100% monitor view, there are better systems than Leica M that will maximize quality at 100% monitor view.

    BTW, that one reviewer, how is his (I doubt a woman wrote that) eyesight and focusing skill? There is a single sample problem with that.
    Will

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    There are a million reasons this makes no sense. And yet...

    Somehow this really is tempting: better shutter, live view, resolution, ISO, croppable with ease. The MM1 always seemed to me to be a quirky but absolutely fine portable B&W handholdable camera that gives medium format quality. This extends that strength in a number of ways. Could imagine cleaning out the closet for this.

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ...but also the way a lens "draws"...
    Let's retire this ridiculous phrase.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Let's retire this ridiculous phrase.
    I cannot speak for others but I find this descriptive phrase quite apt for describing the way a lens optically and viscerally presents an image it captures. Sort of how a lens presents an image in a artistic sense, hence "how it draws" . Sure other factors also contribute to a len's optical properties, some of which can be quantitatively measured....but this descriptive phrase is just that. it's a descriptiion that often (although not always) is an aside from its resolving power and measurement.

    Many use this term and it's been widely accepted. So speaking for myself, retirement of this phrase is not in the cards.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 4 Weeks Ago at 18:42.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    So Dante came knocking but reminded me that I still love my M246 and so had me add an upgrade to my GFX50s with a new GFX 100 today.

    M10M problem solved for now!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    The World is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page ...
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Let's retire this ridiculous phrase.
    Why?
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Why?
    I agree - lenses do render differently and appeal to different aesthetics. Perfect isnít always better IMHO.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    The World is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page ...
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Why do you think I used these words:
    "I think buying these type of Leica's is not about economics, it's about buying a pristine piece of kit that can do things no other camera can do.

    I don't think you said anything off topic - I was a bit put off by discussion regarding a Voigtlander lens- which can only be bought with a Sony mount - in this thread.
    As for monochrome - Leica isn't the only one - Phase One makes a B&W Apochromatic back for those inclined to use such equipment.

    Cheers
    Pete

  19. #69
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    M10 Monochrome in hand, and I think I've got a nice kit put together before I leave for Peru

    Just an FYI, I had to scrap around quite a bit to get the M10M in time for my trip. The folks over at www.agfcamera.com were tremendously helpful. They are a brick and mortar store but with great resources reaching out here from Hong Kong into the US.

    Lots of Leica gear and a good legitimate gear resource.

    Email: [email protected]

    Really nice camera. I like the simplicity and ease of use.

    Ken

  20. #70
    Senior Member KeithDM's Avatar
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Delighted with my new acquisition (first M Monochrom). Was out and about with it Thurs afternoon and Friday lunchtime. A selection of results can be seen here in the resulting album on Flickr.. Comments appreciated.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithDM View Post
    Delighted with my new acquisition (first M Monochrom). Was out and about with it Thurs afternoon and Friday lunchtime. A selection of results can be seen here in the resulting album on Flickr.. Comments appreciated.
    Keith, some really lovely images and I especially was impressed with the striking tonality in many of them as well as interesting subject matter. Nicely done!

    Dave (D&A)
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  22. #72
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    I might be wrong but would a X1D II file converterd to B&W not be as good if not better than a M10 Monichrome. I had an original MM and when I bought my first S006 it knocked the socks off the MM files

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    I might be wrong but would a X1D II file converterd to B&W not be as good if not better than a M10 Monichrome. I had an original MM and when I bought my first S006 it knocked the socks off the MM files

    Neil
    You're probably right but I'm not sure that is the point. I think it is more of the fact that you have a camera with only B&W capabilities and using that mindset. Like only having B&W film in your camera.

    Joel

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by JoelM View Post
    You're probably right but I'm not sure that is the point. I think it is more of the fact that you have a camera with only B&W capabilities and using that mindset. Like only having B&W film in your camera.

    Joel
    Morning Joe
    I get that but when I had my MM or even when I was out shooting 8x10 or 120 film there were always times when I would say to myself **** I wish I had brought some colour film or man that would have been nice shot with my Nikon D7000 i.e. colour.
    Walking about with a MM only camera to me became a disappointment because of what I wrote above...........then the S006 came along and the issue went away as the S006 files just blew away the MM files when converted to christianity.

    I don't have a X1DII and probably wont ever have one, as I'm more into golf these days.........I did have a H6D100c and that was the dogs in either colour or black and white

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    I might be wrong but would a X1D II file converterd to B&W not be as good if not better than a M10 Monichrome. I had an original MM and when I bought my first S006 it knocked the socks off the MM files

    Neil
    I have the original X1D, it does a great job converted to B&W IMHO (especially long exposures). I wouldn't expect the X1DII to perform any different.

    Doesn't stop me from wanting a Typ 246 or M10M though (or P1 Achromatic), and it's always good to have options.

  26. #76
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Nice little convert
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    In theory some argue that a Bayer array sensor with 30% more pixels (minimum) is required to match a monochrom sensor. So in theory a 50MP chip might just match the B&W capability of the monochrom. Then you have to consider the lenses attached to the front of the sensor- and I don't think any MF camera manufacturer can offer the amenity or speed of the top line Leica M lenses. the SonyA7r4 should be able to match the monochrom and has a suit of lenses that in theory can match the better M's up to f1.4 - art a significant 'cost' in terms of weight and PP requirements. Th eonly reason I sold the original MM is i got tired of having to use neutral density filters in front of my M glass as the CCD base ISO was over 300. - the files were of course stunning - the current line of MM does not have the high base ISO issue and therefore fast glass ( why else buy Leica?) is more easily used as it was designed to be used.

    I've resisted the allure of the M10M so far having access to both SL2 - with its superior optics and GFX100 with its outstanding optics and happy with my PP routines for B&W conversion - but as a rule I always compose and view through the EVF in B&W -my mantra is shoot colour ONLY when colour is the main subject.

    TLDR?

    There are PLENTY of reasons why a monochrom camera makes sense - and I dont know why Fuji OR SOny haven't come out with their own versions.

  28. #78
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    and it's always good to have options.
    Absolutely it is
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Peter,

    There is a current discussion on LUF that the new M10M measures a base ISO between something like (approx) 400 to 640 (or thereabouts). I believe it was also confirmed at Leica through a discussion. If the camera's ISO dial is set to a lower ISO, the DR seems to be reduced and highlights often blown if one say meters by an external meter and sets ISO on meter according to what the ISO dial reads. Again I am just trying to recall the details I read earlier.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Peter,

    There is a current discussion on LUF that the new M10M measures a base ISO between something like (approx) 400 to 640 (or thereabouts). I believe it was also confirmed at Leica through a discussion. If the camera's ISO dial is set to a lower ISO, the DR seems to be reduced and highlights often blown if one say meters by an external meter and sets ISO on meter according to what the ISO dial reads. Again I am just trying to recall the details I read earlier.

    Dave (D&A)
    Thanks Dave - as I said I have resisted the allure of the M10M - so I haven't spent much time looking at all the specs etc - I will check this information out as (for me) the compulsory use of neutral density filters in order to shoot wide open with a Noctilux in particular (why else own it?) lacked amenity.
    Pete

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks Dave - as I said I have resisted the allure of the M10M - so I haven't spent much time looking at all the specs etc - I will check this information out as (for me) the compulsory use of neutral density filters in order to shoot wide open with a Noctilux in particular (why else own it?) lacked amenity.
    Pete
    You're welcome. Don't quote me (there are certainly those who know a lot more than I do), but I believe without the Bayer filter, the amount of light reaching the sensor is greater, than a equivalent Bayer filter camera and thus results in higher base ISOÖ.that combined with more pixels (or a greater density of pixels), results in the M10M having a higher measured base ISO than even its predecessor, the M246 monochrome.

    Agree, unless one employs the use of ND filters, the use of very fast glass wide open becomes an issue in good light.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    You're welcome. Don't quote me (there are certainly those who know a lot more than I do), but I believe without the Bayer filter, the amount of light reaching the sensor is greater, than a equivalent Bayer filter camera and thus results in higher base ISOÖ.that combined with more pixels (or a greater density of pixels), results in the M10M having a higher measured base ISO than even its predecessor, the M246 monochrome.

    Agree, unless one employs the use of ND filters, the use of very fast glass wide open becomes an issue in good light.

    Dave (D&A)
    Went over to LUF and read the thread - it seems that things really haven't changed much as far as the base ISO penalty goes...so called blown highlights have never really bothered me - I like black blacks and dont mind sparkling whites in prints which is why I shoot (to make prints) a lot of the discussions re fall off curves come from the perspective of film shooters- wanting digital to be just like film - I shot slide much more thana film so 4-5EVF is plenty of DR for my purposes !As an aside I've reached out to Leica and they re dong refurbished like new original MM's for 1/3rd the price of the latest AND you get to pick your colour leather People say the second generation was better than the CCD original - on internet display - I never saw it.

    of course the obvious solution to the base ISO issue - is an SL body camera with an inbuilt ND filter ( ala Fuji with their X100 series) ....

    Pete

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Went over to LUF and read the thread - it seems that things really haven't changed much as far as the base ISO penalty goes...so called blown highlights have never really bothered me - I like black blacks and dont mind sparkling whites in prints which is why I shoot (to make prints) a lot of the discussions re fall off curves come from the perspective of film shooters- wanting digital to be just like film - I shot slide much more thana film so 4-5EVF is plenty of DR for my purposes !As an aside I've reached out to Leica and they re dong refurbished like new original MM's for 1/3rd the price of the latest AND you get to pick your colour leather People say the second generation was better than the CCD original - on internet display - I never saw it.

    of course the obvious solution to the base ISO issue - is an SL body camera with an inbuilt ND filter ( ala Fuji with their X100 series) ....

    Pete
    Leica (Germany) have been offering these refurbished M9s, M9-P and MM1's for a few months now and many have been sold. As you mentioned it comes with choice of leather, and of course the new non-corrosive sensor. The MM1 in my opinion has a look among the monochrom's all its own in many circumstances. Not better but different....just as the CCD M9 has a look all its own in color imagery that not easily duplicated by the MOS successors, regardless of post processing techniques employed. Each has its place. Sort off like dishes in ones favorite cuisine restaurant. Everyone has different taste and expectations.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Peter,

    There is a current discussion on LUF that the new M10M measures a base ISO between something like (approx) 400 to 640 (or thereabouts). I believe it was also confirmed at Leica through a discussion. If the camera's ISO dial is set to a lower ISO, the DR seems to be reduced and highlights often blown if one say meters by an external meter and sets ISO on meter according to what the ISO dial reads. Again I am just trying to recall the details I read earlier.

    Dave (D&A)
    That information is based on Sean Reid's excellent analysis of highlights recovery at various ISOs. There is no measurement of DR at various ISO-s, yet. For that, we have to wait for Bill Claff.
    There is also no confirmation from Leica, AFAIK.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    FYI, the latest LR/ACR update, among other things, added support for M10M cameras. Noticeable changes:

    - lens correction works now
    - a default contrast curve is applied
    - default noise reduction is applied (depends on ISO)

  36. #86
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Just to note, the LUF thread regarding base ISO of the M10 monochrome is continuing to have additional input and info which has added to the discussion.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Just to note, the LUF thread regarding base ISO of the M10 monochrome is continuing to have additional input and info which has added to the discussion.

    Dave (D&A)
    Thanks Dave - interesting to read that maybe the new M10M has a base ISO of 200 for maximum DR - I think I have almost made my mind up to buy one of those refurbished liek new original M9 Monochroms - all I have to do is decide what colour leather - thinking either yellow or Burgundy at this stage - I think the camera is a steal at the prices Leica are quoting!

    many happy memories using the original MM - it is time to make up for selling it....

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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Peter, just by chance you haven't seen or been following it.....there is a 10 page thread on LUF regarding the Leica M9 and M9M refurbished cameras and peoples experience on ordering and receiving theirs. The link is :

    https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic...-m9p-for-sale/

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Bill Claff just published PDR measurements for Leica M10 Monochrom:

    http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...10%20MONOCHROM

    Highest dynamic range measured at ISO 160.
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    Re: M10 Monochrome

    Thanks for the lin S. Interestingly the SL2 tops out @ ISO 50 - but overall the M10M has stellar performance - much better than the SL2 for DR all the way up the ISO range and not too far behind the GFX100.

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