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M10 Monochrome

PeterA

Well-known member
Nice Pete, something definitely special about the 1st MM, that ccd sensor used within it's limitations produces beautiful shots.

I've read quite a few people asking for IBIS, personally I don't get it, especially with high ISO being so good and the M quite easy to handhold at much lower speeds than I can hold a normal DSLR. I'd always prefer a faster shutter and higher ISO over a super low shutter speed, but I can see that some would want it. No idea how a range finder would work and I'm not even sure that an M should be anything other than what it is technology wise but I'm clearly no expert, that technology in their other evf based cameras I totally understand. I don't shoot longer than the 75 though, so maybe it's much harder to shoot longer lenses, I have no idea.

I think it will be interesting to see the output from the new monochrome, I remember the hysteria surrounding the D800 when it was first announced, 36mp, hand held! No chance was the general chatter, it'll be a tripod camera only but that really wasn't the case at all, same really for the GFX 50s when that was announced with no IBIS, I could shoot that thing at way lower than I expected, but the high ISO was so good I'd even prefer an underexposed image over one where either I or the subject could move. In fact the only time I ever used any form of stabilisation was on a 200f2 on a D800, for some reason it was switched on to IS by accident, saw an amazing scene of a wild deer between foggy trees, swung the camera up, took a couple of shots before the IS had stabilised, totally ruined shots and the deer ran off, vowed never too use it again under any circumstance!

Anyway, nice images, I hope you get chance to try one at least and see what you think. I have delivered 90% of the images I have taken in Iraq in B&W recently, it would easily pay for itself in a single trip.

Mat

B&W is what should be used unless colour is the subject - I find this meme to be a very helpful guide for my shooting. This is why a monochrome only camera makes sense. These days though the through the viewfinder experience can be achieved IN B&W via the magic of EVF - probably the biggest reason I have exited optical viewfinder cameras- I like to see and compose what I am shooting as close to what I will be printing. So the Fuji GFX is about being able to shoot in XPan ratio ( or close to reue cinematic aspect) AND see it in B&W - the SL/SL2 from Leica allows B&W viewing in 3:1 ratio.

I liked the MM mono for the same reasons I liked the M8/M9 - the ccd chips render differently at both ends of the tone curve. To get the sparkle you need fat light for these chips. I don't think there is any great advantage to buying a mono these days since MP count from CMOS chips now eliminates the resolving advantage that a 'colourless' filter array delivered back then. The need for lots fat light to get the most out of these chips also saw the necessity to use a range of NF filters in front of fast Leica glass to use it wide open as base ISO' back then were higher. I don't need to have an argument with anyone re DR of CMOS V CCD wither - the only thing that really matters to me) with B&W is the look of near black and near white and maximising mid range contrast via using the resolving power of the matched Leica lenses - it takes a lot of PP on top of careful exposure technique to get anywhere near what the MM can deliver straight out of the camera.

Re IBIS ( like autofocus) it has its upside and downside I guess much like anything else - but my hand steadiness is not what it used to be, just as my eyesight has deteriorated over time so speaking just for myself and knowing what I can and can't do easily - the days of using a rangefinder 'easily' to nail wide open fast glass are probably over .... I doubt that my hit rate will be as high using an M with 40+ megapixels versus the IBIS enabled SL2 or GFX100 - for younger shooters these issues aren't a consideration - I used to be one of those too.

Fuji have it all over other manufacturers with their film simulations and ability to profile these in camera as well - I think this is a real differentiating factor - the out of the box ACROSS simulation with proper exposure - goes a long way to reduce PP work.

Its nice that Leica offer up differentiated product - I know for a fact that there is a lot of pressure on FUJI to bring out their own monochrom - don't understand why more manufacturers don't offer the option.

Cheers
Pete
 

bensonga

Well-known member
- don't understand why more manufacturers don't offer the option.

Cheers
Pete


I've often had the same thought. I give Leica alot of credit for continuing the development of the M Monochrom. The M10 Monochrom looks like a significant advancement in many respects.

The original Leica Monochrom got me hooked on the idea of someday having a monochrome sensor camera. Ultimately, I chose a less expensive mirrorless monochrome conversion alternative (a Sony A7 converted by Daniel Morrison of Monochromeimaging.com) and I've been very happy with the camera and the images it produces.

Although I have several 35mm and medium format rangefinder film cameras and two Leica M digital cameras, I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that a rangefinder is just not my first choice for the shooting experience. Rather than the M10 Monochrom, the Leica monochrome camera that would really interest me is a SL2 Monochrom.

With the M Monochrom and a SL Monochrom Leica would have a killer combination. :thumbs:

Gary
 
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M

mjr

Guest
Great to hear there's some interest in it from people, Leica are doing something special whilst maintaining the original M ethos in my opinion. I'd love to see more manufacturers producing monochrome sensors, not because it's ever going to be super popular or even understood by many, but purely because the world is a better place for having companies push in different areas and step outside the mainstream, long may Leica continue doing things differently.

I hear you Pete on age being the limiting factor on some kit, I am rapidly approaching my 50's and feel the difference every day, but I think Leica are right to offer alternatives with all of the bells and whistles, they'd be wrong I think to change the M to cater for people who might find it harder to hand hold or focus with the M, it's just a fact of life, it would be a shame for all those annoyingly young, creative types not to experience the M as it always has been for the sake of us older guys.

I agree that a SL-M and even a Q2-M would be awesome to see, neither I'd buy but would be cool to know they are out there.

I'm probably going to get a flight over to Germany next week, check out the monochrome and also they will check over all your lenses and align them perfectly with your camera whilst you have a look around, will take the M10-P and just make sure everything is perfect, my 50 lux front focusses a little so they have agreed to sort that out.

Anyone else fancy a trip to Wetzlar next week??

Mat
 
M

mjr

Guest
That's a great article Graham, nice to read someone genuinely excited about a camera and what it can do!

Mat
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Jeez, IBIS/more bells/more wishes/ more... ??? Everyone is different I suppose.

I can't even afford a beaten up M8. Or a lens. But for the first time ever, I would absolutely buy an M10 or an M10 monochrome hands down over any other product in the market if I could afford it. Period.

Size, weight, IBIS, gadzillion megapixels, AF, and all the rest mean nothing to me.
If I can't make good images with any camera on the market today, it ain't gonna be the fault of the camera because it lacks features, it would be me. For the typical use and end product that the M cameras are designed for, the M10 and its variants, suit me like a glove.

Mat, I look forward to seeing how you like the results of the new Monochrome camera.:thumbs:

In the meantime, I will carry on with the equipment I am using now, and maybe I will eventually master it in my lifetime. Not a chance, LOL...:)
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Ugh... thanks for that link, Graham!!! I think...:)

Great article, but now it puts more stress on me to find a paying job in addition to my current 24/7 responsibilities. Dante... again.:facesmack:
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Dante recommends reading this. I’ve started sticking my post-it’s on gear too :)

https://www.ultrasomething.com/2020/01/paradox-view-the-m10-monochrom/
Oh look, a cardinal! So rare to see that bird around here.

How about them Dodgers...

LA, LA, LA, LA, I can't hear you....

I doubt I will see a Leica in my future (at least owned by me), but I am really glad they are pursuing the monochrom line. Now, if it included a removable filter to convert it into a full spectrum camera, that would almost be too much of a temptation (although the rangefinder focus might be a bit tricky). Still, hats off to those companies pursuing camera design outside the mainstream.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Great to hear there's some interest in it from people, Leica are doing something special whilst maintaining the original M ethos in my opinion. I'd love to see more manufacturers producing monochrome sensors, not because it's ever going to be super popular or even understood by many, but purely because the world is a better place for having companies push in different areas and step outside the mainstream, long may Leica continue doing things differently.
This was the biggest loss to photography in the film to digital transition. Just look at the variation in film camera design in terms of camera type and format aspect ratio. We are not going to see camera like TLRs, X-Pan/TX-1 panoramic rangefinder, Bronica RF645 with a vertical frame orientation, and swing-lens panoramic cameras. The square is dead as well. I don't have to want it, but the richness of the available tools to photographers is important for the art.

And it is not like digital has not added to photography. There are things I can do with digital cameras that were really hard in film. I love that I can make seamless panoramas from multiple frames and have so much control over color. But it also limited camera design because of costs.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Lou, Voigtlander? Tell me it isn't so? What happened to those Summicron 50 mm APOs you owned?

17x22? Why would you need the Sony IV? You could print that "large" with a cell phone... an old cell phone.

I believe the Conductress we know would scold you for these views. :cool:

RickLeica

ps I can't wait to get my M10M and put that LHSA 50mm on it! :thumbup:
Hello Rick

Yes it's true. I will have some images to share on the Voigtlander APO 50/2.0 thread aptly named once back from a few days in Miami with another Leica Fanboy.

Did you see the FM comparisons post on p27 post #3, Leica APO 50 and Voigtlander APO 50, but on the A7R3 not the uber A7R4?

Very interesting to say the least.

Will you still talk to me?
 
All true denizens of Dante's Inferno already know: this camera is indeed Dante Approved.

The Leica M10 Monochrome is the perfect complement to a nice medium format digital kit.

--Dante
 

Auni

Member
Hello Rick

Yes it's true. I will have some images to share on the Voigtlander APO 50/2.0 thread aptly named once back from a few days in Miami with another Leica Fanboy.

Did you see the FM comparisons post on p27 post #3, Leica APO 50 and Voigtlander APO 50, but on the A7R3 not the uber A7R4?

Very interesting to say the least.

Will you still talk to me?
Ha!

Of course, I'll still talk to you. You are my favorite photographer and gear junkie. You always race towards the new gear fire and embrace the present. We know life is short and every new camera/lens/PP technology is not better or worse, but rather something to be explored before our time is up.

I'll go look at FM and see what you are referencing. The Voigtlander APO 50 certainly is an interesting lens.

Your friend,

Soggy Rick.
 

vieri

Well-known member
I don’t understand the surprise about the price. It is cheaper than the color version (M10P, 24Mp) and has a rarer sensor (few people buy monochrome)
Not in my local, M10-P sells for 7.690 euro, M10 Monochrom is 8.340 euro. The real reason why I don't understand the surprise about the price is that, well, it's a Leica. Contrarily to any other manufacturer, Leica generally increases their price with any iteration (or simply because one year went by, even if nothing has changed with the product). Only notably exception the SL, which went down in price during its lifetime, a sign - IMHO - of a serious scare Leica had with the system's ability to compete. Therefore, it was just to be expected that the M10 Monochrom would cost more than the M10-P, and way more than the previous iteration (M246).

I would not consider new cameras as investments other than investments in my own work, so not investments in the sense that you buy and sell for a profit. Used Leica lenses might be, and most often are, and used film Leica cameras (even the non-exotic, non-collector variations) might be.

On another note, it is a different thing, I know, but it's worth considering that a well-loved film M would run you around 1.200 (M2/M3) to 2.000 euro (M6/M7) to 2.500 (MP), and you could buy and process about 4-500 films with the rest of the money (color & BW), giving you about 15-18.000 shots. When you sell it, it would definitely have retained its value, and very likely increased it, whereas the M10 Monochrom won't. Of course, you'd have to go through the hassle (or joy, if you enjoy that) of processing your own B&W film, and of course if you plan on shooting more than 18.000 frames then you are ahead financially by getting the M10 Monochrom :)

Best regards,

Vieri
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Ha!

Of course, I'll still talk to you. You are my favorite photographer and gear junkie. You always race towards the new gear fire and embrace the present. We know life is short and every new camera/lens/PP technology is not better or worse, but rather something to be explored before our time is up.

I'll go look at FM and see what you are referencing. The Voigtlander APO 50 certainly is an interesting lens.

Your friend,

Soggy Rick.
Rick

I think you may be going too easy on Lou ...:facesmack:

Roger ...LeicaFan Boy
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Looks like a fine piece to me, although it's not the direction I've been going with my cameras and photography. Possibly at some point in the future, but likely the future past 2020 at least.

Yes, if I really wanted/needed one, I'd pay the "absurd" price. It looks like it easily blows competitors out of the competition and particularly with my Leica lenses. Why is it a given that whenever Leica announces a new, high end, limited edition camera with a premium price it is always dissed on price, even by people who have three to five times that money in other equipment? Makes no sense to me. No matter how satisfying that other equipment might be, it isn't at the same level as what Leica is doing. I don't need two or three modified Sony cameras to do what the M10M does out of the box, and in five years the M10M will still be worth a much greater fraction of the initial absurd price than three modified Sony cameras on resale.

G
 
No matter how satisfying that other equipment might be, it isn't at the same level as what Leica is doing. I don't need two or three modified Sony cameras to do what the M10M does out of the box, and in five years the M10M will still be worth a much greater fraction of the initial absurd price than three modified Sony cameras on resale.
Why would you need two or three modified Sony's in lieu of one M10M? Wouldn't one modified Sony do?
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Why would you need two or three modified Sony's in lieu of one M10M? Wouldn't one modified Sony do?
Agree, you only need one and it will cost less than this camera will depreciate in value the next 4-6 years so you can throw it away and not have to deal with selling it and still come out ahead economically.

But I agree with Godfrey's other part, I think buying these type of Leica's is not about economics, it's about buying a pristine piece of kit that can do things no other camera can do. Wether you're willing to pay the price for that is up to every individual to decide. I have as much respect for people who are willing to pay the price and show us the results here as for people who don't want or can't pay the price and show us good work with different (lower cost?) cameras. To each their own and I see no reason to diss the buyers or the non-buyers.
 
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