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Thread: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Leica rumors has PRE release a document showing the new S3 as using “phase detection based on contrast in live view” . Is this new or am I just wishing AGAIN for better AF in the S cameras ?

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Leica rumors has PRE release a document showing the new S3 as using “phase detection based on contrast in live view” . Is this new or am I just wishing AGAIN for better AF in the S cameras ?
    You probably will have to, I am afraid - as I will happily have to discard it, AGAIN, due to long exposures limited to a ridiculously short 60 seconds unbelievable as it might sounds.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    You probably will have to, I am afraid - as I will happily have to discard it, AGAIN, due to long exposures limited to a ridiculously short 60 seconds unbelievable as it might sounds.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    This must be lost in translation ...my question was ...”DO YOU READ THE SPECIFICATION PAGE ON LEICA RUMORS AS THE S3 HAVING PDAF ?”

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    This must be lost in translation ...my question was ...”DO YOU READ THE SPECIFICATION PAGE ON LEICA RUMORS AS THE S3 HAVING PDAF ?”
    NO NEED TO SHOUT THERE, ROGER, I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE. My interpretation, as in my previous answer, is that you probably will have to keep wishing for better AF. Hope it is clear this time.

    For sure, it won't have exposures longer than 1 minute, if that document is correct, thus - AGAIN - shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the landscape crowd.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    NO NEED TO SHOUT THERE, ROGER, I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE. My interpretation, as in my previous answer, is that you probably will have to keep wishing for better AF. Hope it is clear this time.

    For sure, it won't have exposures longer than 1 minute, if that document is correct, thus - AGAIN - shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the landscape crowd.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    Best not to make statements with certainty when only speculation is considered.
    Best regards,
    Jesse
    djessemay.com

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dj may View Post
    Best not to make statements with certainty when only speculation is considered.
    Hence my saying "probably", "if the document is correct", and so on Far from what I'd consider "make statements with certainty".

    Best regards,

    Vieri
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    Senior Member bab's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Hence my saying "probably", "if the document is correct", and so on Far from what I'd consider "make statements with certainty".

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    Vieri,

    I’m with you brother.


    So I responded on the Leica rumor comments that Leica in an interview make a clear that after consulting with their customers as to whether or not their customers want a EVF on the new S the majority did not.
    I made mention of several other key points that a flagship camera like the S3 (albeit 2 years late) might have been released with. Not any crazy items just your normal hit list, things like IBIS, 15fps, EVF 5.7k dot, LCD flipping 2 k dot lcd,
    4.2.2 10 bit, 1/2000sec flash sync, ISO 100-50000 and maybe a few
    Tilt-Shift lenses.
    After all I’ve supported Leica over the years with tens of thousands and would reconsider an additional investment if the new S or SL fit my needs?

    Here was a Leica fanboy response not sure he has a very strong grip of the camera business as it stands today but it’s one mans funny skewed view.

    “I think you may be confusing Leica for Fujifilm or Panasonic. Leica is not and never has been a consumer brand aiming at a popular market. They have a loyal and largely conservative customer base, for sure, and they say they have been asking their pro customers about the S. But I don’t think any of their products (maybe Sofort) is aimed at a consumer market from whom they need to ask for a spec list. For one thing they don’t have the business agility to respond, for another they take pride in being exclusive and somewhat elite. Instead, they can leave the spec hunters to their partners in Japan and focus on their core market.”

    I pretty much these days buy tools to do a job if they don’t do the job I really don’t care what name is printed on it, I don’t caress or stare at my tools yes I like nice things and quality but after that it has to preform.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    NO NEED TO SHOUT THERE, ROGER, I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE. My interpretation, as in my previous answer, is that you probably will have to keep wishing for better AF. Hope it is clear this time.

    For sure, it won't have exposures longer than 1 minute, if that document is correct, thus - AGAIN - shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the landscape crowd.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    Even when I shout you didn t understand my question . I was not asking you to speculate ..I was asking for clarification on the terminology being used . PDAF has the POTENTIAL to be substantially better than CDAF as used in the S2,S 006 and S 007 . But ..I am uncertain if Leica s specification “ Phase detection based on contrast in live view “ means its a PDAF system .

    You have made it abundantly clear that long exposures (greater than 60 sec ) are important to you ...BUT that has nothing to do with the type of AF system being used . How in a thread titled ...”will the new S3 have PDAF ? “ could you misunderstand my intent ?

    Or is your agenda to just bash the Leica S system because it doesn t meet your requirements ?

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Even when I shout you didn t understand my question . I was not asking you to speculate ..I was asking for clarification on the terminology being used . PDAF has the POTENTIAL to be substantially better than CDAF as used in the S2,S 006 and S 007 . But ..I am uncertain if Leica s specification “ Phase detection based on contrast in live view “ means its a PDAF system .

    You have made it abundantly clear that long exposures (greater than 60 sec ) are important to you ...BUT that has nothing to do with the type of AF system being used . How in a thread titled ...”will the new S3 have PDAF ? “ could you misunderstand my intent ?

    Or is your agenda to just bash the Leica S system because it doesn t meet your requirements ?
    When you shout, you just become impolite and rude. That's it. Not only that, but all that anger seems to cloud your ability to read what others write beyond your preconceived opinion of such.

    1. You seem not to understand that "clarification" on a rumor cannot be other than speculation on a speculation, and that's what I offered you. My interpretation, or my clarification, of what the rumor said. Sorry, but how can you expect anyone to know not even what Leica means before a product is in fact available, but what a rumor of what Leica might have said means? And, even funnier, how can you get all riled up about people offering their help. just because you don't like what they say? Sorry, but it seems pretty much beyond reason to me.

    2. You mentioned in your original post that you were long waiting for a feature, and were wondering if Leica was going to make you wait for that even in this next iteration. I added my own feature that I have been waiting for along time, and the Leica won't also add into this iteration, if rumours have to be believed. Relax, it is called expanding the conversation, not misunderstanding your intent.

    3. I am not bashing anything. I voted with my wallet a long time ago, even during my 3-year stretch as a Leica Ambassador, when I bought the S (Tip 007) to use side by side with my SL and sold it after less than a year because Leica didn't deliver on long exposures. I choose to get a second SL instead and use the SL exclusively back then, happily. Simple as that. For me cameras and brands are tools, not religious matters. Incidentally, it seems that given the state the S system is in, the long flatlining sales of it, the lack of interest and support showed by Leica to it (S3 announced how long ago??), there isn't much need for anyone to bash it. They seem to be doing a pretty good job by themselves, and it seems I am not the only photographer that voted with their wallet against it.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    When you shout, you just become impolite and rude. That's it. Not only that, but all that anger seems to cloud your ability to read what others write beyond your preconceived opinion of such.

    1. You seem not to understand that "clarification" on a rumor cannot be other than speculation on a speculation, and that's what I offered you. My interpretation, or my clarification, of what the rumor said. Sorry, but how can you expect anyone to know not even what Leica means before a product is in fact available, but what a rumor of what Leica might have said means? And, even funnier, how can you get all riled up about people offering their help. just because you don't like what they say? Sorry, but it seems pretty much beyond reason to me.

    2. You mentioned in your original post that you were long waiting for a feature, and were wondering if Leica was going to make you wait for that even in this next iteration. I added my own feature that I have been waiting for along time, and the Leica won't also add into this iteration, if rumours have to be believed. Relax, it is called expanding the conversation, not misunderstanding your intent.

    3. I am not bashing anything. I voted with my wallet a long time ago, even during my 3-year stretch as a Leica Ambassador, when I bought the S (Tip 007) to use side by side with my SL and sold it after less than a year because Leica didn't deliver on long exposures. I choose to get a second SL instead and use the SL exclusively back then, happily. Simple as that. For me cameras and brands are tools, not religious matters. Incidentally, it seems that given the state the S system is in, the long flatlining sales of it, the lack of interest and support showed by Leica to it (S3 announced how long ago??), there isn't much need for anyone to bash it. They seem to be doing a pretty good job by themselves, and it seems I am not the only photographer that voted with their wallet against it.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    More Leica Bashing ....

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    More Leica Bashing ....
    Great arguing

    Best regards,

    Vieri
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by bab View Post
    Vieri,

    I’m with you brother.


    So I responded on the Leica rumor comments that Leica in an interview make a clear that after consulting with their customers as to whether or not their customers want a EVF on the new S the majority did not.
    I made mention of several other key points that a flagship camera like the S3 (albeit 2 years late) might have been released with. Not any crazy items just your normal hit list, things like IBIS, 15fps, EVF 5.7k dot, LCD flipping 2 k dot lcd,
    4.2.2 10 bit, 1/2000sec flash sync, ISO 100-50000 and maybe a few
    Tilt-Shift lenses.
    .........
    What is a studio shooter going to do with IBIS/15fps/and EVF and flippy screen or your ridiculous high ISO requirements? What kind of professional use is a file shot at ISO 50,000 ? Your 'asks' and expectations make no sense to me.

    Roger wants better autofocus and Vieri could use longer exposure times - both fair asks (although I doubt that the S real market is landscape shooters). I'm glad Leica are sticking with their brilliant optical viewfinder - it works for studio shooting much better than any EVF currently on market - which is why a lot of studio shooters still prefer optical finders - no blackout/none/ no fuzzies - ever. I'm not a buyer of the S after being there and done that - but I can understand a lot of people who are and would be - it is a fantastic camera and lens system - especially in studio.

    NO it isn't a 35mm Japanese camera - that it isn't - if you want/need one of those type of cameras - go buy one.

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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I'm glad Leica are sticking with their brilliant optical viewfinder - it works for studio shooting much better than any EVF currently on market - which is why a lot of studio shooters still prefer optical finders - no blackout/none/ no fuzzies - ever.
    Peter, I think your logic makes perfect sense, no camera is "perfect" for every shooting situation and style. I only have a question on your "no blackout" statement for the Leica S. Isn't there always a blackout in the OVF when the mirror flips up to take the picture, or am I missing something?

    Btw, responding to the earlier "spat" between two other members here: I think bashing is something entirely different from pointing out limitations why the camera doesn't suit your style and/or shooting situations. Just my $ 0.05.
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think bashing is something entirely different from pointing out limitations why the camera doesn't suit your style and/or shooting situations. Just my $ 0.05.
    Or in this specific case articulating why one move onto another brand. I think what some may need to consider is that while maybe a person has move onto a tool that better fits their needs it doesn’t preclude people from keeping an eye on what’s out there. Perhaps a person had an otherwise great experience with the products of a company but their work changed or maybe a person was in contact with the company and expressed the desire for certain changes in how a product operates. I think that it behooves a company to consider how they respond to the people invested into their products... and the prospective ones too.

    Just my opinion though... and I find it to be a true statement for every company in an otherwise contracting industry.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    But the question should be ...”who asked if the S3 fits your needs? “ . The world doesn t revolve around your perspective . Its bashing when you complain about the lack of features you want ! Start your own thread if you want to express your opinion on the limitations of the S3 .

    All I asked for was a simple explanation of what Leica means by “Phase Detection with Contrast in Live View “ . Is that the same as PDAF or maybe closer to the hybrid approach taken by Panasonic .

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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Peter, I think your logic makes perfect sense, no camera is "perfect" for every shooting situation and style. I only have a question on your "no blackout" statement for the Leica S. Isn't there always a blackout in the OVF when the mirror flips up to take the picture, or am I missing something?

    Btw, responding to the earlier "spat" between two other members here: I think bashing is something entirely different from pointing out limitations why the camera doesn't suit your style and/or shooting situations. Just my $ 0.05.
    When I pan a mirrored camera I don't have any lag in setting up the shot - none under any lighting conditions none - same for a Leica M. I think this is where all EVF devices (currently) are still behind so called old tech. I also don't particularly like having to become familiar with different refresh rates for different conditions - when all I want to do is is focus on the subject at hand - just as one example. Yes EVF (IMHO) is a superior shooting experience - generally speaking - but for some it isn't and I understand why. My choice was an SL2 not an S and it has the features that 35mm market seems to want - including high capability in video.

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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Can anyone answer Roger's question? So far not one reply-perhaps no one understands Leicas definitions in their fact sheet on Leicarumors. I don't.
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Can anyone answer Roger's question? So far not one reply-perhaps no one understands Leicas definitions in their fact sheet on Leicarumors. I don't.
    I don't think folks understand what Roger is simply asking. I don't know the answer either because, I don't know what Phase Detection with Contrast in Live View means in this camera. That's all he is simply asking.

    He wasn't asking for anyone to speculate on a rumor. He just wants to know what folks think Leica means in the spec. sheet regarding this type of PDAF.

    But, I know he wasn't looking for someone to digress the thread into a conversation about the lack of personally-wanted S features and their personal views on the S platform. At least not on the first response post.
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    But the question should be ...”who asked if the S3 fits your needs? “ . The world doesn t revolve around your perspective . Its bashing when you complain about the lack of features you want ! Start your own thread if you want to express your opinion on the limitations of the S3 .

    All I asked for was a simple explanation of what Leica means by “Phase Detection with Contrast in Live View “ . Is that the same as PDAF or maybe closer to the hybrid approach taken by Panasonic .
    By their data there’s a center cross type PDAF point in live view.

    I have no idea what PDAF based on Contrast is... it doesn’t make sense. If they’re implying that they have a hybrid PDAF/CDAF based system then fine. That’s literally what most camera companies do. The verbiage they use is “off.”

    ...and in that note I will bow out of this useless conversation based on a possible rumor.
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Can anyone answer Roger's question? So far not one reply-perhaps no one understands Leicas definitions in their fact sheet on Leicarumors. I don't.
    Not a clue here, or else I would have responded. Either Leica changed the sensor for 2020, or it’s marketing speak or a translation error. My sources have all moved to the SL2, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Matt

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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    When I pan a mirrored camera I don't have any lag in setting up the shot - none under any lighting conditions none - same for a Leica M. I think this is where all EVF devices (currently) are still behind so called old tech. I also don't particularly like having to become familiar with different refresh rates for different conditions - when all I want to do is is focus on the subject at hand - just as one example. Yes EVF (IMHO) is a superior shooting experience - generally speaking - but for some it isn't and I understand why. My choice was an SL2 not an S and it has the features that 35mm market seems to want - including high capability in video.
    Thanks Peter, I see where you're coming from but I would call that "no time lag" and not "no blackout" but that might be semantics. As far as I know every camera with a flapping mirror will have a blackout and I only know of one mirrorless camera that doesn't have it (the A9). Only rangefinder cameras truly have "no blackout" and "no timelag" either.

    Roger, sorry for another off-topic post, and I don't know the answer to your question. However the Leica Forum S3 thread is now 22 pages, so maybe you can find the answer in there somewhere.
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    S camera has 80msec black out. Like most DSLRs.
    SL camera has 80msec black out! Not like any? mirrorless cameras which have longer BO times. At least at the time SL came out this was true, don't know about now.

    Leica wanted the SL with its great EVF to not suffer BO lag and wanted the VF to be as close to a DSLR experience as possible, so they shot for 80msec. The video specs and the EVF refresh rate had to be top notch to accomplish this.

    I love the shooting experience of both and the output is great as these systems have incredible glass as well. I don't own either, I own the M system.

    Sorry to digress but, the main OP's question has been lost here anyway.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Not a clue here, or else I would have responded. Either Leica changed the sensor for 2020, or it’s marketing speak or a translation error. My sources have all moved to the SL2, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Matt
    thanks Matt I believe you understand why I am asking for clarification on the rumor
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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    At the time of writing post, the thread has been viwed 529 times.
    I am sure some one from Leica also viewed this thread. Is it too much to expect a Leica spokesperson to write some clarification and answer OP's question?

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    Re: Will New S3 Have PDAF?

    Quote Originally Posted by B L View Post
    At the time of writing post, the thread has been viwed 529 times.
    I am sure some one from Leica also viewed this thread. Is it too much to expect a Leica spokesperson to write some clarification and answer OP's question?
    No, it isn't, but I could understand if they wouldn't do it in a thread with such negative undertone. If they did, people might refer to it from other places.
    500 is not a lot depending on how they count, especially when people go back and forth. But even if they didn't see it, it would be good if they had someone who would.
    Someone could ask them to make sure they know the question is out there, though I'd just wait and see how it works in the real world (on the GFX100 for instance you do get the speed, but the eye af is unreliable.)

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