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To those with new Mono, any lens failing to pass muster?

JohnBrew

Active member
There have been many suppositions in the past when sensor resolutions have risen that the existing lenses were not up to the task of the higher mp sensors. And one website claiming that NONE of the existing lenses of a certain manufacturer could resolve the higher mp’s.
So has anyone with an M10M discovered any lenses which are inferior for the new sensor?
Thanks for all replies.
John Brewton
 
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Jeffg53

Member
Slightly left field but my R lenses aren’t showing any stress coping with a D850. They just keep on keeping on.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
There was a similar discussion in this thread (posts 96 to 105), not about the M10M but about a hard or soft limit what a lens will resolve on a higher MP sensor.

In general a higher MP sensor will almost always show more detail with the same lens but wether this is real detail or just caused by oversampling has not been definitely determined, so the jury is still out on that one. I still haven't had time to do more testing (as discussed in there).
 

KeithDM

Well-known member
Sean Reid in his 'Reid Reviews' addresses this question at length and concludes that even decades old Leica, ZM and CV lenses will perform without concerns and advises 'just mount your favourite lenses and go take pictures'.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Sean Reid in his 'Reid Reviews' addresses this question at length and concludes that even decades old Leica, ZM and CV lenses will perform without concerns and advises 'just mount your favourite lenses and go take pictures'.
Great advice!

I think there's also some "people suffer most from the suffering they fear" aspect in this discussion.

Something has to limit the ultimate resolution of an image, who really cares if that's the lens or the sensor (or a combination of the two)? It's an interesting technical discussion but for me not really more than that.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Lenses do not perform worse on higher MP sensors. If you like a particular lens, just use it. It might not look great at 100% monitor view, but that is not a real world viewing condition (nor is it an equal viewing condition between two images with different pixel resolutions; one is magnified to a greater degree than the other). If you put two prints next to each other, you will see no real difference. BTW, the higher resolution sensor will always have higher-frequency detail. There is no sharp cut off point for optics that suddenly prevent them from giving more information.
 

JohnBrew

Active member
Thank you, Will. I think most of the people who make the “outdated” claim do so based on mtf graphs which themselves may be outdated!
In light of this I must reference my ancient Nikkor 105 f2.5 Ai which continues to defy the so-called experts by revealing astounding detail and character with the new technology.
Anyway, I’ll soon have a new Mono on the way so I will endeavor to ascertain if this is a problem with a lens over 60 years old and another not quite so old.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

From Appendix:

I get asked several times a week if this lens or that is ‘capable of resolving’ this number of megapixels. Some people seem to think a lens should be ‘certified’ for a certain number of pixels or something. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of it works.
...
System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF
I got into this same argument for saying the dreaded "lens out resolves sensor". This, I believe, makes sense. "Sensor out resolving lens" can be made to make sense, too, but it's just definitions. Note: I am NOT claiming that higher resolution sensors will not improve some lens's image. Just that there is an upper bound, and you can meaningfully discuss when you are close enough to "good".

To be clear, I completely agree with the "use whatever lens whose rendering you like with any camera". But that doesn't mean we can't TALK about resolution.

Here's what I wrote in another forum in response to an appeal to Roger's (excellent) article. In particular, the (and I'm paraphrasing) "anyone who says this out-resolves that is jejune". I was being (for me) quite snarky. No insults intended!:

That's the problem with appeal to authority. Quoting is not the same as understanding. While it's true that "out-resolving" is undefined, that's simply because Roger doesn't define it. He defines resolving for each component as MTF = 0.3. Other definitions are possible (as he admits), but he picks one. Well, we can pick one, too.

MTF is a function of frequency (and distance from the axis, but we'll talk about resolution on axis). Roger picks an MTF of 0.3 as his definition of "resolved". That means "at what frequency (lines/mm, say) does the MTF of the system drop below 0.3. The sensor has a maximum frequency given by its pixel pitch (Nyquist). It has a lower frequency f_sensor, where its MTF = 0.3. So here's a definition. A lens out-resolves a sensor if its MTF value at the frequency f_sensor is greater than 0.3. That means that SOME sensor could cause that lens to resolve at that frequency, just not the sensor in question. We could use the Nyquist frequency of the sensor instead. It's a choice.

Similarly, if the lens MTF at f_sensor is less than 0.3, then no higher density sensor could cause the system to resolve that frequency, and so we can say that the sensor already out-resolves the lens.

In practice, though, the lens out-resolves the sensor if no possible increase in lens quality would improve the detail "much", where "much" is some parameter chosen by the observer. Just because a parameter hasn't been chosen does not make the definition silly. Similarly, if an increase in sensor resolution improves the detail by "close" to the theoretical maximum, we could also say that the lens out-resolve the sensor. Again, "close" needs specification.

These are all possible (perhaps even reasonable) models for determining which part of a system out-resolves another. Someone has to make up new models. They were all new, once.

Or we can skip the thinking part, quote Roger or Jim Kasson, or some other expert, and call it a day.

Matt
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
I can't say that I've ever studied the MTF charts nor that I've ever really cared to either. I don't think there ever is a hard bright line where a once favored lens becomes "not good enough." But I do know I have been there with Phase One digital backs at least subjectively, finding myself urged on by Dante to upgrade my lenses to keep up with the shiny new MFDB :loco:;)

But I do think the Leica M system is different. The Leica M10 Monochrome is my first Leica, it being the first Leica to really grab my attention. I don't think the M10M's "41 megapixels is all that much" :rolleyes: and the M lenses imo really are about their personality or characteristics. No pixel peeping needed. It's just a fun camera system to use.

Congratulations on your Leica M10 Monochrome! :thumbup:

Ken
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Hi Lou,

I'm still new to the Leica-fold, and still finding my way around---though at the moment, I think "ignorance is bliss" is a good thing, so as to avoid the urge to collect more Leica M lenses.

I picked up the M10 M for my trip to Peru (February 2020)---and was lucky enough to get the camera in time for my trip. Machu Picchu has many restrictions, so the Cambo and Phase combo as well as tripod use is a no-go. When Leica announced the M10 Monochrome, it peaked my interest and the race was on to try and locate a camera before my trip. I actually had my lenses selected before the the M10 Monochrome was shipped to me.

I wanted three focal lengths for my trip----and my preference is not to acquire any more M lenses! :rolleyes:

Leica Elmar 24mm Asph f/3.8
Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.2
Leica APO Summicron 90mm f/2

I considered the 28mm and 35mm but ultimately decided to go wider with the 24mm. Lens choices simply made based on focal lengths and reviews. I find myself using the Voigtlander 50mm the most---very nice lens. I picked up B+W yellow and orange filters. Visoflex 020 is really neat but I find myself not using it much. Added a -.5 diopter which really helps. Still digesting the Leica pricing schemes :loco:.

I'm sure others more familiar with the line of Leica lenses can provide better reasons to add various M lenses---but I'm happy for now. :D The M10 Monochrome just a fun and simple camera to use. Pure photography. Low light capability is excellent. At higher ISO, the files exhibit a pleasing grain and I think is what makes for a nice pairing with any M compatible lenses. I don't find myself pixel peeping at all with this camera, but rather enjoying the image as a whole. I'm looking forward to Capture One 20 updating with a camera profile for the M10 M.

Ken
 

algrove

Well-known member
Ken
Thanks for the information on no tripods there. I went there about 40 years ago when it was very dangerous what with gangs stopping and robbing trains.

I have had Leicas since I started with digital photography (actually started with photography in earnest with the M9), but now my eyesight has stopped manual focus camera use even though the 020 worked for me very well. Owned 65 M lenses at one point and 25 R lenses too. I too liked the 24 for street use as well. Your selection of lenses is terrific and is probably all you'll ever need unless you start street which makes the 35 a good choice too. Interested to see some images. I do want to hear how the Voigtlander seems AFA image quality-corner to corner? Thanks.
Lou
 
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D&A

Well-known member
Just a few quick thoughts and observations.

I think why Leica M mount lenses (and some of the 3rd party counterparts) are often accepted as less than perfect with regards to optical tested performance, is unlike users of some other systems, where edge to edge sharpness is often the primary attribute desired (especially in landscape photography), lenses on the Leica rangefinder that are less than optically perfect are seen to have their own sets of attributes, namely the way they draw an image. This is especially in light that Leica rangefinders first and foremost were used for reportage work, not landscapes. In that light, it really doesn't matter how many pixels the digital rangefinder has (except for maybe print size or cropping purposes). Although a M lens's look may be somewhat altered by a camera that has more or less megapixels, a lens that has mediocre performance on the sides or edges is going to have that attribute whether using a full frame 12mp digital rangefinder or a full frame 40+ mp digital rangefinder. It's primary purpose of using it, is first and foremost the way it presents an image. Of course there is more to this, so please accept this oversimplification.

Focal length for a given purpose is of course subjective. Like Lou, I prefer a 35mm or 28mm for street work...although a wider 24mm for some types of reportage can be an advantage. The Voightlander 50mm f1.2 is an exceptional lens and is a fast M mount lens that comes close to the current Leica 50mm f1.4 asph. The faster 1.2 aperture can really only be measured more so in the center of the frame, so the lens really shouldn't be thought of as a faster lens than the Leica. Sharpness especially in the central part of the frame comes extremely close to the Leica, even over most of the frame from f1.4 onwards and the edges of the VC 50mm f1.2 lag just a little behind until f2. The lens has a lovely look (slightly less clinical than the Leica) and when compared to the Leica price, is an exceptional buy.

Nice choices of lenses Ken. When it comes to use of lenses on a Leica rangefinder, because each individual desires or looks for different things in the lenses they use, opinions will of course vary.

Dave (D&A)
 
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SrMphoto

Well-known member
I got into this same argument for saying the dreaded "lens out resolves sensor". This, I believe, makes sense. "Sensor out resolving lens" can be made to make sense, too, but it's just definitions. Note: I am NOT claiming that higher resolution sensors will not improve some lens's image. Just that there is an upper bound, and you can meaningfully discuss when you are close enough to "good".

To be clear, I completely agree with the "use whatever lens whose rendering you like with any camera". But that doesn't mean we can't TALK about resolution.

Here's what I wrote in another forum in response to an appeal to Roger's (excellent) article. In particular, the (and I'm paraphrasing) "anyone who says this out-resolves that is jejune". I was being (for me) quite snarky. No insults intended!:


<snip>

Or we can skip the thinking part, quote Roger or Jim Kasson, or some other expert, and call it a day.

Matt
I have never seen a lens that performs well on 24Mp to perform worse on 50Mp. Does anyone have a different experience?

In fact, it seems that some lenses requiring SDC will 'perform' better on high-resolution sensors (when looking at images with SDC applied).
 

algrove

Well-known member
Hi Lou,

I'm still new to the Leica-fold, and still finding my way around---though at the moment, I think "ignorance is bliss" is a good thing, so as to avoid the urge to collect more Leica M lenses.

I picked up the M10 M for my trip to Peru (February 2020)---and was lucky enough to get the camera in time for my trip. Machu Picchu has many restrictions, so the Cambo and Phase combo as well as tripod use is a no-go. When Leica announced the M10 Monochrome, it peaked my interest and the race was on to try and locate a camera before my trip. I actually had my lenses selected before the the M10 Monochrome was shipped to me.

I wanted three focal lengths for my trip----and my preference is not to acquire any more M lenses! :rolleyes:

Leica Elmar 24mm Asph f/3.8
Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.2
Leica APO Summicron 90mm f/2

I considered the 28mm and 35mm but ultimately decided to go wider with the 24mm. Lens choices simply made based on focal lengths and reviews. I find myself using the Voigtlander 50mm the most---very nice lens. I picked up B+W yellow and orange filters. Visoflex 020 is really neat but I find myself not using it much. Added a -.5 diopter which really helps. Still digesting the Leica pricing schemes :loco:.

I'm sure others more familiar with the line of Leica lenses can provide better reasons to add various M lenses---but I'm happy for now. :D The M10 Monochrome just a fun and simple camera to use. Pure photography. Low light capability is excellent. At higher ISO, the files exhibit a pleasing grain and I think is what makes for a nice pairing with any M compatible lenses. I don't find myself pixel peeping at all with this camera, but rather enjoying the image as a whole. I'm looking forward to Capture One 20 updating with a camera profile for the M10 M.

Ken
Just happen to wonder if you got around to reading this article

https://photopxl.com/envisioning-the-image/
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I got into this same argument for saying the dreaded "lens out resolves sensor". This, I believe, makes sense. "Sensor out resolving lens" can be made to make sense, too, but it's just definitions. Note: I am NOT claiming that higher resolution sensors will not improve some lens's image. Just that there is an upper bound, and you can meaningfully discuss when you are close enough to "good".

To be clear, I completely agree with the "use whatever lens whose rendering you like with any camera". But that doesn't mean we can't TALK about resolution.

Here's what I wrote in another forum in response to an appeal to Roger's (excellent) article. In particular, the (and I'm paraphrasing) "anyone who says this out-resolves that is jejune". I was being (for me) quite snarky. No insults intended!:

That's the problem with appeal to authority. Quoting is not the same as understanding. While it's true that "out-resolving" is undefined, that's simply because Roger doesn't define it. He defines resolving for each component as MTF = 0.3. Other definitions are possible (as he admits), but he picks one. Well, we can pick one, too.

MTF is a function of frequency (and distance from the axis, but we'll talk about resolution on axis). Roger picks an MTF of 0.3 as his definition of "resolved". That means "at what frequency (lines/mm, say) does the MTF of the system drop below 0.3. The sensor has a maximum frequency given by its pixel pitch (Nyquist). It has a lower frequency f_sensor, where its MTF = 0.3. So here's a definition. A lens out-resolves a sensor if its MTF value at the frequency f_sensor is greater than 0.3. That means that SOME sensor could cause that lens to resolve at that frequency, just not the sensor in question. We could use the Nyquist frequency of the sensor instead. It's a choice.

Similarly, if the lens MTF at f_sensor is less than 0.3, then no higher density sensor could cause the system to resolve that frequency, and so we can say that the sensor already out-resolves the lens.

In practice, though, the lens out-resolves the sensor if no possible increase in lens quality would improve the detail "much", where "much" is some parameter chosen by the observer. Just because a parameter hasn't been chosen does not make the definition silly. Similarly, if an increase in sensor resolution improves the detail by "close" to the theoretical maximum, we could also say that the lens out-resolve the sensor. Again, "close" needs specification.

These are all possible (perhaps even reasonable) models for determining which part of a system out-resolves another. Someone has to make up new models. They were all new, once.

Or we can skip the thinking part, quote Roger or Jim Kasson, or some other expert, and call it a day.

Matt
And when does the human visual system "out resolve" either of those? You could say 8x10 contact prints have no value because the detail can simply not be perceived by a viewer, yet the beauty of an 8x10 contact print is apparent.

And then there is the problem of not only the appeal to authority, but also to the authority of numbers. If you can measure it, it must be important. Like the ability to use a calculator to do your taxes to 10 decimal places...
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Thanks, Lou. Nice article. I'm trying to visit Photopxl more since Kevin left Luminous. Definitely more articles there to read but the forums here are definitely more active!

ken
 

D&A

Well-known member
Thanks, Lou. Nice article. I'm trying to visit Photopxl more since Kevin left Luminous. Definitely more articles there to read but the forums here are definitely more active!

ken
Much agree, enjoyed reading both parts 1 & 2 of Lou's article.

Dave (D&A)
 

algrove

Well-known member
I have nothing, but time on my hands so writing is one approach to keeping myself sane.

That's also why I started the "Dusting off the Hard Drives" series under the MF thread called "How about some Portraits". I'm up to #26 both B&W and color, but perhaps viewers here are tiring of them as the number of comments is declining.
 
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