Leica SL adds Multishot capability 187MP

[iiiNelson]

This is the test that describes the difference in Multishot. It does not look like it is caused by a difference in sensor stack, but rather by a difference in software used to assemble it:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310699-leica-sl2-firmware-20-187-mp-multishot-mode/?do=findComment&comment=3997115


I need to do my own tests with my S1R and SL2 before I accept such a significant difference in Multishot quality.

The software algorithm may indeed be potentially more refined in the SL2 and that would make sense being that they’ve had over a year to further refine it. I still would lean on ultimately the way they go about sensor shift is largely the same and that sensor stack differences likely play a larger part in the differences. IMO based on what I’ve seen (without doing scientific deep dives) the end result (even if Panasonic further refined their algorithm to be “the same” as Leica) would be the same, ultimately the Leica would likely still be a bit sharper without artificial software processing by the Panasonic due to a thinner software.

It seems like they’re zooming into it at 100% and 400% to highlight the differences though... which kind of gets to my point about the SL2 being slightly better but you have to go to the extremes to tell them apart in reality. Seems like people are looking for minor differences to justify their purchase which requires no justification beyond saying that they just wanted and preferred the SL2 over the S1R.

I still stand by both are excellent cameras and are far more alike than different.

 

[iiiNelson]

I hope you don't mean me by "touchy people" .

I own both S1R and SL2. I admit that my preferred camera is SL2. But I would not say that SL2 is generally better.
In some areas, S1R is better and some areas it is SL2. No shame in admitting that .

Luckily for us, they are different and can fulfill the needs of a wide range of users.

No, I wasn’t speaking to any one person in particular... I rarely (if ever) make personal attacks on people or groups of people... though some may feel that I have Or at least have accused me of such because many people do make attacks on users of certain cameras (Leica and Sony users come to mind first).

I just mean people in general on the internet that may take varying viewpoints differently. I don’t care what people choose to use and seriously don’t believe that there are many bad cameras these days... just subjective reasons for choosing one platform over another. I really am to the point (and truly believe) that no one really needs to justify their purchasing decisions but it can be helpful to share why one does if one choose to do so. No matter what one chooses these days, it ultimately comes down to subjective needs/wants more than capability. I can definitely say that my Sony system’s autofocus is objectively better than my Panasonic S1R one in hit rate... but the differences aren’t as great as some reviews would have you believe for most types of photography... and the 6K photo mode can turn it into a pretty capable “sports camera” where you can essentially take short videos to pull “decisive moments” from.

So no, I wasn’t referring to you (or anyone here in particular) but rather making a point that the internet can sometimes be a “touchy” place when it comes to the “religion of brand wars.”

 

[MGrayson]

Joe,

The biggest difference to my eye is that the uprezzed crop looks over-sharp. I like the look of the multi-shot better, but more because it has what I think of as Leica colors - soft, but clear. The uprezzed is a tad plastic. I see no difference in detail, but then, I seldom sharpen pictures, believing that the lower frequencies make the photo.

Thank you for posting that example,

Matt

 

[glenerrolrd]

While the Uprez examples provide a perspective of how a large file (print ? ) would look .....my POV was that most 187 mp files will be downsized . So the comparison should be a native 47mp capture against a downsized 187mp to 47mp . This is where Diglloyd finds the real improvements in any large file comparison .

Am I confused ? Again :facesmack:

 

[MGrayson]

While the Uprez examples provide a perspective of how a large file (print ? ) would look .....my POV was that most 187 mp files will be downsized . So the comparison should be a native 47mp capture against a downsized 187mp to 47mp . This is where Diglloyd finds the real improvements in any large file comparison .

Am I confused ? Again :facesmack:

I agree 100%. I wish they had a 47MP RAW output from the multi shot mode. That would have great color and detail. Anyone who used a 4MP Foveon knows the look. (For all I know, they do. I should really download the manual!)

 

[D&A]

Joe Wrote --->"And here's a 100% crop from the center of the multi-shot frame. I applied Topaz Sharpen AI to the multi-shot file since Topaz Gigapixel AI added a dose of sharpening when uprezzing the standard rez file. As a result, this is more of an apples to apples comparision."<<<---

Joe, my mistake. I obviously missed your posting where you compared 100% crops from the Topaz uprez file vs. the multishot file (with added Topaz sharpening). Clearly it shows the superiority of the multishot file. I too try to avoid most all uprez programs, no matter how good they are unless it's a "must" situation for large scale printing, as it adds too many artifacts for my liking. I am also not on a Retina display (using the NEC I purchased from you), but that clearly shows the advantages of the Leica SL2 multishot capability if and when a larger file size is required.

Appreciate your additional comments and observations in your post just prior to this one. Useful and informative

Dave (D&A)

 

[gerald.d]

The mathematics and modeling discussion is waaay above my pay grade, so I thought I'd bring the conversation back to actual photos.

Here's the scene:


Per Roger's earlier post, I uprezzed the standard resolution file using Topaz Gigapixel AI, the best uprezzing app I have. Here's a 100% crop from the center of the uprezzed frame:


And here's a 100% crop from the center of the multi-shot frame. I applied Topaz Sharpen AI to the multi-shot file since Topaz Gigapixel AI added a dose of sharpening when uprezzing the standard rez file. As a result, this is more of an apples to apples comparision.


To my eye, the multi-shot file is significantly better than the uprezzed file. The multi-shot file shows detail (the veins in the leaves, for example) that the uprezzing tried to create but failed. The multi-shot file appears more "natural" and would look better in print, IMHO.

I'm not addressing the issue Matt raised regarding whether I/we need 187MP files for printing. That's a separate conversation. What I wanted to address was whether the Leica SL2 multi-shot feature produces better IQ than uprezzing, and I'd say that it does. Appreciably better.

OK, talk amongst yourselves.

Joe

Thanks for providing this comparison Joe.

Which mode did you use for the multi-shot? I've never shot scenes like this with my S1R in multi-shot mode, just watches. When the watch is running the second mode handles the movement of the second hand absolutely perfectly - this was one of the things that really surprised me about the capability of the camera.

Here though it is clear that the camera has made a right mess of dealing with the movement of the leaves.

Where there is no movement, the difference between the multishot and the uprezzed file is very significant, but where the camera has failed to deal with the movement, it would seem to make the multishot file almost unusable (if one is interested in detail at the pixel level of course).

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Joe

Excellent test thank you . I think we are saying the same things . A larger file (mps) is almost always desirable . The need for and degree of improvement depends on the end users perspective . Do you frequently print large ,do you need or desire to crop , what screen will be viewing the images on ?

We all try to find the right combination of gear, technique and post processing/printing to create the very best rendering of or photographs . Multishot can provide another option that will be right for many situations .

FYI the DL test I was referring to was of the Panasonic S1R which DL indicated was the best multishot application he had seen .

There is a good and enjoyable description of Multi Shot on the Leica Australia You Tube Channel ....by Nick Rains .

Roger

 

[SrMphoto]

Gerald, I shot the scene using both modes (motion suppression "on" and "off") and found that it didn't make much of a difference with moving leaves. So I only illustrated my post with one set of photos. The moral of the story is that SL2 multi-shot is not very useful when photographing landscape scenes with leaf movement. YMMV with the S1R.

Joe

Interestingly, I had a different experience.
There was a huge difference in leaves with Motion Artefacts Correction Off (blurry, unusable) and On (very good, everything sharp). It may depend on the situation and shutter speed as well.

 

[SrMphoto]

These excerpts (1122 x 1122 crop) are typical for Motion Artefact Correction on vs off.

 

[SrMphoto]

SL2 or S1R? Shutter speed?

Joe

SL2, 1/50 sec, 35mm lens.

 

[DougDolde]

Judging from this video it's not worth the bother

https://youtu.be/K18WHJritQQ

 

[siddhaarta]

My experience has been that the shadows, especially when recovered, result much cleaner in multishot mode.


Quite important for a lot of situations like high contrast landscapes.