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Thread: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

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    280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    How difficult is it to acquire a palm grip for the non-mod 280 (1st or 2nd ver)? The one (I can't seem to find now) on the web seems to be a different unit for more modern lenses.

    From another perspective - how did the grip rate on the useful/gimmick scale?

    Oh and what (I'm unsure ungodly costly) type of 112mm filter was typcially used on the front of these babies? Straight UV -- or did it have to be some specialized Noctilux-glass version that was 3 microns thick and made only by 3-fingered Barvarian Trolls on odd-numbered Tuesdays?

    Trying to determine the cost/benefit difference between a 280 that may be just the barrel and caps and one that is more fully equipped.

    Oh, and after all this, any thoughts you have on the lens itself (you know the glass and metal bits that do all the work) would be welcomed.

    Gracias

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    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Rob:
    I owned this lens for a short while and I felt the resolution was not comparable to the other lens in the same focal length. The big Leica filter actually degrade the image. If you want to go into more detail let me know and I will.
    Son
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son,

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter as in your FM thread on 'final thoughts on exotic lens tests' you speak highly of it.

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...7992/0#1966417

    I am in 'need' (justification) of a lens in roughly the 300mm range, ideally 2.8 (for indoor as well as outdoor work) that won't break the budget and performs well with a 1.4x - and wide open. There, not asking too much ;> Camera is a 1DS2.

    A used EF 300/2.8 is an obvious choice, but I am so used to the accurate color rendition of Zeiss and Leica glass, going back to EF would be tough. There is so little relative PP required using non-EF glass.

    On the lower end, I shot soccer last season with a 300/4 EF (Non-IS) and it was dissapointing. Larger detail such as jersey numbers, etc were crisply rendered but fine detail such as on the faces of the players were 'fuzzy' for lack of a better description.

    Looking on the screen at say 30% shots would look great, zoom into 50% or greater to better reflect the rendition on an actual print and you started to swear when you looked at the players face.

    The lens performs better stopped down, but at F7.1-F8 on anything less than a brilliant day, forget about stopping any action.

    On top of that, every shoot's raw conversions required having to deal with WAY over-the-top reds and lemonized greens.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Further question - will the Leica palm grip #14282 work on the 280. It looks awfully close in design to the stock unit.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Son,

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter as in your FM thread on 'final thoughts on exotic lens tests' you speak highly of it.

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...7992/0#1966417

    I am in 'need' (justification) of a lens in roughly the 300mm range, ideally 2.8 (for indoor as well as outdoor work) that won't break the budget and performs well with a 1.4x - and wide open. There, not asking too much ;> Camera is a 1DS2.

    A used EF 300/2.8 is an obvious choice, but I am so used to the accurate color rendition of Zeiss and Leica glass, going back to EF would be tough. There is so little relative PP required using non-EF glass.

    On the lower end, I shot soccer last season with a 300/4 EF (Non-IS) and it was dissapointing. Larger detail such as jersey numbers, etc were crisply rendered but fine detail such as on the faces of the players were 'fuzzy' for lack of a better description.

    Looking on the screen at say 30% shots would look great, zoom into 50% or greater to better reflect the rendition on an actual print and you started to swear when you looked at the players face.

    The lens performs better stopped down, but at F7.1-F8 on anything less than a brilliant day, forget about stopping any action.

    On top of that, every shoot's raw conversions required having to deal with WAY over-the-top reds and lemonized greens.

    I finally took the time and did the comparisons among all of the long tele-photo lens and here are the latest lists and results:

    A. 180-200 mm Focal Lengths:
    1. Canon 1.8/200L EF Mount (n = 14)
    The sharpest lens at infinity and close up. However, it's closest focus distance is 2.5 m (8.2 feet). Thus, sometimes it is limited in style of shooting and is the only negative comments. However, if this lens is used the way it was intended which is sport there is no limitation in its optical designs. There is slight variance among the lens but a great percentage from the total of 14 lens were extremely sharp with 3D characteristic.

    2. Leica Apo-Summicron-R 2.0/180 ROM (n=6) and Non ROM (n=4)
    This lens along with the Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 2.8/180 ROM (n=2) came in second but not too far from the Canon EF 1.8/200L in resolution. At infinity the Leica lens is extremely close to the Canon but at close up (8.2 feet) the gap of resolution was opened up more skewed toward the Canon; visual the differences were significant but quantitatively were undetermined. Since I shoot portrait much more than sport, I ended up keeping the Leica Apo-Summicron-R 2.8/180 ROM. I also tested the old Leica Apo 3.4/180 (n=2) versus teh 2.8/180 ROM and at infinity they were identical and at close up the 2.8/180 ROM only slightly sharper but not significant enough to justify the price differences. There are two versions of the Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 2.8/180 and I used the latest versions where the Apo Tele-Converter was compatible. I did not have the opportunity to compare these two different versions of the Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 2.8/180.

    3. Contax Apo-Sonnar T* 2.0/200 C/Y mount (n=2)
    This lens came in third in term of resolution at wide open f stops despite it was the lens that stimulate my interest in testing out all these lens. The strength of this lens is at F5.6 as mentioned before and the symmetry of bokeh; it produces a perfect rounded bokeh of any lens. This is typical of high end Carl Zeiss lens.

    4. Olympus Apo 2.0/180 (n=2)
    This lens is among the top notch olympus lens with rare earth elements. The lens is a beauty it is own and the scattered literature rumored that it was this lens that Leica mimic the Leica Apo-Summicron-R 2.0/180 after. The lens is sharp and with nice IQ but at wide opened the CA is not as well corrected as the lens listed ahead of this lens. It was due to this lack of correction lead the weakness to this lens among its peers.


    B. 280-300 mm Focal Length:
    1. Canon EF 2.8/300L (n=1)
    Simply among the sharpest lens and followed its predecessor, the EF 1.8/200L. Together, the Canon EF 1.8/200L, 2.8/300L and 2.8/400L (n=2) clearly demonstrated the strength of R&D (over $600,000,000.00) where Canon once upon a time true niche; sports photography. Since digital age 35 mm format especially with full frame sensors are used more frequently for landscape and architecture photography and thus explained the history of Canon optics and its lack of wide angle optical performance.

    2. Leica Apo-Telyt-R 4.0/280 ROM (n=2)
    This lens is extremely sharp and it was difficult to tell the difference when compared with the Canon 2.8/300L. However, when compared to the Canon 4.0/300L (n=1) there was no comparison in resolution and especially in colors. The Canon 4.0/300L has very dull colors and on the Canon digital sensor it was very displeasing after you have seen among the very best optics in this focal length.

    3. Contax Apo-Tessar 2.8/300 C/Y mount
    The image quality of this lens was pleasing but on the resolution scale against the lens listed above it was simply a class lower both at infinity and close up. Again, the bokeh was very pleasing with perfect circular bokeh.

    4. Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 2.8/300 (n=2)
    The resolution of this lens is a class below those tele-photo lens listed above in term of resolution at close up. But at infinity it is sharp as I mentioned before. However, I do not find using the telephoto lens at infinity often enough. I am not sure the exact manufactory number for the pistol grip but the lens normally comes with the grip. Check with Leica USA for the manufactory number.

    5. Canon 4.0/300L
    Forget resolution, the color was simply too flat.


    Now if budget is limited and if one is willing to switch system and sacrifice certain feature of the Canon system for pure image quality at a great value, the Sony Alpha upcoming full frame 25 megapixels is an interesting one. Instead of putting a limited fund toward the Canon 4/300L, the alternative would be getting the Minolta 2.8/300 AF and currently is not too far from the Canon 4/300L in term of price. But of course few would make this transition. However, the way I see it, for color and resolution, the Sony Alpha and Minolta 2.8/300 AF is the best value. Now if one shoot sports at night and ISO speed is required this combination remains to be determined but the F2.8 make up somewhat for the ISO. Recently, the Sony Alpha showed very good color rendition in harsh light condition. The Sigma SD14 is at its best in daylight and studio strobes.

    Since speed is not essential for my work I have chosen the path of medium format tele-photo lens for the medium format systems and adapting them to my 35 mm format cameras. The lifetime of the 35 mm DSLR is much shorter than the medium format sensors and having a medium format lens I can switch DSLR more easily without the need of acquiring new lens. Currently I am using the Mamiya Apo-Tele-Photo lens 2.8/300 for all system. The Hasselblad Superachromat 2.8/300 Power Pack is another alternative tele lens that can adapted to many systems including medium and 35 mm formats. I do not recommend adapting tele-photo lens with F stops 5.6 and greater to the 35 mm format system since the lack of light will make it extremely difficult for accurate manual focus.

    -Son
    Last edited by PSon; 16th February 2008 at 18:48.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son,
    Just curious, how are you evaluating the lenses? Are you shooting them side by side with the same subjects or are you using a test pattern and software such as Imatest or ???

    I have read many of your informative posts on lenses and always figured you had some method to evaluate but never seen anything posted.
    Eric

    As far as the Leica 280 f/4 vs f/2.8 all I can add is that I have read from many experienced leica shooters that the 280 f/4 is the sharpest (highest resolving) lens that Leica has made so far. I don't read much about the 2.8 and they come up much more frequently for sale.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Son,
    Just curious, how are you evaluating the lenses? Are you shooting them side by side with the same subjects or are you using a test pattern and software such as Imatest or ???

    I have read many of your informative posts on lenses and always figured you had some method to evaluate but never seen anything posted.
    Eric

    As far as the Leica 280 f/4 vs f/2.8 all I can add is that I have read from many experienced leica shooters that the 280 f/4 is the sharpest (highest resolving) lens that Leica has made so far. I don't read much about the 2.8 and they come up much more frequently for sale.
    Eric,
    I did both, the Imatest for indoor only and for outdoor I do both close up and infinity just side by side testing. I found that the Imatest confirmed what the normal test without the chart. Thus, eventually I no longer use the Imatest but continue to test lens both at close up and at infinity. The Leica 2.8/280 is also a much bigger lens than the F4. In addition, the F2.8 normally comes with the big filter but the filter actually degrade the image quality.
    Son
    Last edited by PSon; 16th February 2008 at 20:41.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son,
    Thanks for your reply. I also have Imatest and used it for some formal tests but for much of what I do, an informal test is good enough. I once had two Leica 35-70 f/2.8 elmarits at one time and I shot both and compared them to my 100 apo macro. Both elmarits were identical in performance and when compared to the macro, I would be hard pressed to say which was better. Had I used imatest, I might have been able to quantify, but just by doing the comparison I was satisfied and duly impressed with the 35-70 elmarit. Now that I've shot both in many circumstances, I'd actually give the edge to the 35-70. So getting back to the 280mm f/4 that must be a very impressive optic.

    Eric

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son:

    Were the Canon 300mm f2.8 and 400mm f2.8 lenses you refer to the latest IS versions?

    I have had a few of the 280mm f2.8 and both versions of the Canon 300mm f2.8. The Leica was clearly better than the non IS version of the Canon, with the Canon 300mm f2.8 IS being better than the Leica 280mm f2.8, but the Leica having the better colour.

    In regards to the 400mm lenses, my Leica was better at f2.8 than the Canon 400mm f2.8 at 2.8, but once the Canon was stopped down a third of a stop it was better than the Leica at f2.8. Once stopped down a bit the Canon looked sharper, but I think it may have been that the Canon created more contrast in the big details, but the Leica had better details in the fine details. For example, with my sports pictures, the numbers on the jerseys of the players would look sharper on the Canon, but the Leica would resolve the fabric of the jerseys and the hairs on the arms and legs of the players. This gave the Leica the better look.

    Here are a couple shots done with the Leica 400mm illustating what I mean about the detail.




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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son - Thanks very much for the thorough reply. Hopefully we cna keep the discussion fueled.

    I do have one question: how did/do you fidn the performance of the 180/2.8 APO with the 1.4x? My (now sold) 180/2.8 APO (and older model) tested with the 2x APO left me wanting. On the flip side, my former 180/2.0 APO with the 1.4x was virtually transparent to the eye.

    I don't shoot much at 180mm and thus can justify a very costly 180mm APO but COULD use something longer. A newer 180 + 1.4x would do the job, but the cost would be > a 280/2.8 APO.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Son:

    Were the Canon 300mm f2.8 and 400mm f2.8 lenses you refer to the latest IS versions?

    I have had a few of the 280mm f2.8 and both versions of the Canon 300mm f2.8. The Leica was clearly better than the non IS version of the Canon, with the Canon 300mm f2.8 IS being better than the Leica 280mm f2.8, but the Leica having the better colour.

    In regards to the 400mm lenses, my Leica was better at f2.8 than the Canon 400mm f2.8 at 2.8, but once the Canon was stopped down a third of a stop it was better than the Leica at f2.8. Once stopped down a bit the Canon looked sharper, but I think it may have been that the Canon created more contrast in the big details, but the Leica had better details in the fine details. For example, with my sports pictures, the numbers on the jerseys of the players would look sharper on the Canon, but the Leica would resolve the fabric of the jerseys and the hairs on the arms and legs of the players. This gave the Leica the better look.

    Here are a couple shots done with the Leica 400mm illustating what I mean about the detail.




    Rob:
    The Canon EF 2.8/300L IS were the lens I used and not the non IS version. I never got the opportunity to use the Leica 400 mm F2.8. I agree with your accessment in regarding to the colors on the Canon lens versus the Canon. However, I also believe that since none of us could use the Canon lens on the DMR or any other DSLR bodies it make it tough to give out the absolute conclusion to the Canon tele-photo lens in term of color rendition. Here is an example, the Sigma lens on the Canon DSLR produces colors that are different from the Sigma lens on the Sigma body. Below is an example of the Sigma Apo-Macro 2.8/150 on the SD14. In addition, I also believe the phenomenon that you described here with the Leica versus the Canon is due to macro contrast. The Leica perhaps give you a better magnitude in range of shade of grey and retain its micro-contrast better as you have seen. We spoke about micro-contrast and macro-contrast but we do not speak about the way they interact. I believe that there must be a balance for the macro contrast to retain the max micro-contrast; too much macro-contrast can masked the micro-contrast. This explains why in the leg areas where the shadow is present the details retain great amount of information. Another reason to have balance in macro contrast is portrait applications. Here if the lens render too much macro contrast leads to very unpleasing IQ. For example, modern lens with high coating and ASPH elements create a different character than the older lens. Thus we can see why some folks still love the older lens. Recently, we see some of the Zeiss ZF mount (built for Nikon body) show high contrast and yet lacks the glow when compared to the Zeiss C/Y mount.

    To bring the point back to the original question so we can help Robmac (I wish I know everyone's real name so I can address to more properly): a) Despite of the important information we see here and with Rob recent illustrations (thanks for the contributions to the discussion) we must remember what we are trying to do; TRANSLATIONAL PHOTOGRAPHY. b) the Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 2.8/280 (old version not the module one) is built for infinity performance. This choice of optical formula designed is also seen in the Leica Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 which is for spy application. My sincere effort to help you tells me that it will not be the lens for your sport applications but instead a different lens. Since Rob is the residence of Leica tele in sports perhaps he can give us a recommendation for his favorite Leica long lens in the 300 mm range and even perhaps 400 mm. From the data that shown here the Leica 400 mm F2.8 may be a great choice for sports but I am sure this lens come with the price tag. Thus, this bring to my earlier point where the Minolta 2.8/300 AF can be had under $2K with auto focus may be an option when Sony Alpha 25 megapixels comes out. I do like the 300 mm F2.8 range and with some of the Japanese lens I prefer them to be faster lens and not for speed but for colors as we have seen with the Canon 4.0/300L, which is right back to your interests.

    Son
    Last edited by PSon; 17th February 2008 at 09:11. Reason: additional information
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Son, first off name is Robert MacLellan - Rob or 'hey you' works fine as well. Thanks once again.

    The biggest issue is that I do most of my shooting at around 100mm - say +/- 20mm or so. Logically, that's where the bulk of the lens budget has gone (and gone and gone.....).

    That being said, I'd like a longer lens to do some soccer work, hockey, etc - and critters. As you mention it also has to be <F5.6 to be able to manually focus properly.

    However, since it's not the bulk of my shooting by an means, I don't want to pour an inordinate % of my lens budget (thank you loving wife) into a FL that lies outside the bell curve as it were. The 300/4 was light, had fast A but the colrs were typically Canon and fine resolution sucked. Canon's theoretical MTF curves are also very 'enthusiastic' vs. reality.

    A 300/2.8 IS would give me the IQ (colors aside) and AF leading to a higher keepr rate, but is it worth $2000 on top of what a used 280/2.8 APO would run for simply occasional use?

    I also shot a 300/2.8 non-IS for a couple of days and was left unimpressed. The IQ didn't jive with the rep. Clearly like the 70-200/4, adding IS to this particular lens also had a positive effect on resolution.

    In addition, the 300/2.8 weighed a ton (compared to say RobSteve's 400/2.8 APO which was much lighter than expected). Handling-wise, my 180/2.0 APO+1/4X was (or Rob's 400 APO would have been) head and shoulders above the EF 300/2.8. YMMV of course.

    Anyway, thanks once again for the food for thought.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    I also believe the phenomenon that you described here with the Leica versus the Canon is due to macro contrast. The Leica perhaps give you a better magnitude in range of shade of grey and retain its micro-contrast better as you have seen. We spoke about micro-contrast and macro-contrast but we do not speak about the way they interact. I believe that there must be a balance for the macro contrast to retain the max micro-contrast; too much macro-contrast can masked the micro-contrast. This explains why in the leg areas where the shadow is present the details retain great amount of information.

    Son:

    I think you have explained it much better than I could have. I knew what was happening and you could probably see it if you compared the MTF curves, but I couldn't describe it technically.

    Where I really noticed this shadow detail and 3d look to the legs was in my soccer pictures, even back in the days of film. The Leica images had a 3d look to the players legs and you could see much more detail such as the hair on the legs or the herringbone pattern in black shorts. I once shot a soccer game using both a R8 and and EOS 1V with the 300mm f2.8is, using slide film. The equivalent Canon images would be sharp but be missing this finer detail.

    Robert

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    Talking Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    I must have a good copy of the 280/2.8 APO because it is one of my favorite lenses. I bought it new when it first came out and used it for tennis with K64. I then mounted it on my Canon 5D for a season and shot baseball with it again with superb results. When I acquired the entire Modular Telyt system from Kurt ...I did a complete test of every combination on a R9/DMR. It was not as sharp as the 1x module and the 280/400 head...but it was close. I found the sweet spot in the range for me was the 1.4x and the 280/400 head or the 400/4 which was the best of the lot. I also use the 180 2.8 APO and the 180 2.0 APO. I will have to post some images of the 180 2.8 apo and the 1.4 extender..together they are as good as I need. I think the point is that these are all fantastic lenses..your image quality will be affected more by your skill and technique than the differences between the lenses. I realize that the 280/4 is the pick of the litter I looked for a long while and couldn t find one..now I think I will wait for the R10 . As for the mount..its helpful if you plan to hand hold it. This lens is too heavy to hand hold..IMHO ..for anything. I did it a few times for baseball and for tennis..but in those situations you could use the seats/rails etc for stability and often you would be sitting. I went to a monopod just like the Canon/Nikon Pros and it made a big difference in what I could hand hold.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    As far as the Leica 280 f/4 vs f/2.8 all I can add is that I have read from many experienced leica shooters that the 280 f/4 is the sharpest (highest resolving) lens that Leica has made so far.
    I had the good fortune to borrow a 280/2.8 for a few months while my 280/4 was in Solms for repair (broken front element caused by stupidity) and my observations are that the f/4 lens is sharper in the corners, has a closer minimum focus, shows better bokeh, and is easier on the shoulder.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Thanks everyone. Great input.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    A thank-you for this thread. I was looking at a 2.8/280 apo as wildlife lens, and I realized that it was not the ideal lens for me. I used the 280/4.0 apo on film for a long time, but this thread made me reconsider. So I got a 105-280 and I am bargaining for an 1.4x converter.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    I've played with a 105-280mm, nice lens. You must have bought the more costly of the two at KEH - noticed it was recently missing. Congrats and let us know what you think.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I've played with a 105-280mm, nice lens. You must have bought the more costly of the two at KEH - noticed it was recently missing. Congrats and let us know what you think.
    Bingo!
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    ... let us know what you think.
    I'm interested too!

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    I'm interested too!
    I own and use the (should I use the word miraculous?) 280 4.0 apo telyt and find it may be the best lens I have ever seen. I don't know if Doug Herr has and uses this lens, but with this talent this, in combination with the 1.4x extender, could produce images of simply exceptional quality. And Doug, if you don't have this lens, and would want to try, I would be happy to loan mine to you just to see what is possible in the hands of a master.

    Best

    Woody

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Thank you Woody, that's very generous. I have the 280 f/4 APO and 1.4x APO-Extender and I agree it's a spectacular lens!

    I'm interested in the 105-280 Vario because I haven't adequately resolved my needs for a shorter lens, for when I'm too successful at getting close to my subjects. I'm presently using the 80-200 f/4 Vario with the STA-1 tripod collar. IMHO the tripod collar is the weak link in this lens. The 180 f/2.8 APO is one possibility but I would use the same tripod collar with this lens (I suspect the 180 APO Summicron will be a bit too hefty to hike with it very far). Another possibility is the 70-180 APO Vario.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    The 180/2 is like carrying a small torpedo warhead around, but does perform sweetly with the 1.4x. I've shot with a borrowed 105-280mm and it was nice (better at long end) but my 180/2.8 APO which RobSteve and I shot it against out-resolved it by a modest margin - but it doesn't have the reach and the 2x on the 1st version 180/2.8 APO knocks the stuffing out of it's IQ.

    Would love to see a comparison of the 105-280 vs 70-200.

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    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Strange happenings at KEH

    Funny - I just spoke to them on the phone, as I got no e-mail nor a reply to mine... They refuse to take an European Visa or Amex card...Let's see if we can resolve this.
    JAAP
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    I am also interested in the handling and image quality of the F4.2 105-180.

    Erwin Puts gave the lens a pretty good report at the 200 and 280 end when stopped down by one stop, but I would still like to learn what a real "in the field" photographer makes of it.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Strange happenings at KEH

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Funny - I just spoke to them on the phone, as I got no e-mail nor a reply to mine... They refuse to take an European Visa or Amex card...Let's see if we can resolve this.
    Is an "American" Express Card not American enough for them Tell them to pick up a phone and get the sale authorized the old fashioned way.

    I ran into a similar problem in France one early morning on the way to the CDG airport and I couldn't fill up my rental car with the self sevice pumps. I had to search a bit until I found a service station with a human to take my Canadian Visa Card.

    Robert

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am also interested in the handling and image quality of the F4.2 105-180.

    Erwin Puts gave the lens a pretty good report at the 200 and 280 end when stopped down by one stop, but I would still like to learn what a real "in the field" photographer makes of it.
    Dave:

    I have had a 105-280mm for about ten years and it is stunning on both film and the DMR. If you have shot the 80-200mm f4 ROM, the 105-280mm is one notch better in quality. At the longer ranges it practically etches the image onto the film or sensor.

    This is the 105-280mm shot on film at 105mm.



    This is also on film and probably in the 200-280mm range.


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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    This is with 400D 105-280 @280mm, probably F4.2.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Rob - how's Venezuela?

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am also interested in the handling and image quality of the F4.2 105-180.

    Erwin Puts gave the lens a pretty good report at the 200 and 280 end when stopped down by one stop, but I would still like to learn what a real "in the field" photographer makes of it.
    Hi Dave

    I had the 105-280 for about two years and really liked it (a lot). Very heavy and long though so for a 70 something like me a bit tough to hand hold. So I ended up with the 180 elmarit and the 280 4.0 along with my 90 APO and am very satisfied although obviously it takes more work to always be changing lenses. I sold my 105-280 to Gogopix and would love to hear his impressions.

    Woody

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Rob - how's Venezuela?
    Hot, with a nice breeze so it doesn't feel too hot.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Rob - go to the beach man...

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    Re: Strange happenings at KEH

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Is an "American" Express Card not American enough for them Tell them to pick up a phone and get the sale authorized the old fashioned way.

    I ran into a similar problem in France one early morning on the way to the CDG airport and I couldn't fill up my rental car with the self sevice pumps. I had to search a bit until I found a service station with a human to take my Canadian Visa Card.

    Robert
    The problem seems to be that they fear the payment might be reversed and that they would have trouble in case of a dispute - well, if the lens is as advertised there won't be a dispute, the phrase "cold dead hands" springs to mind, but if I do a wire transfer as they want, where is my customer protection? If it were an e-bay transaction I would run as fast as I could: wire transfer, no e-mail coming through... But as this is a shop of high reputation I will go with the telephone and wire transfer, I guess....
    JAAP
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    I guessed wrong.. I have thought it over, no e-mails and a demand for a wire-transfer, that is an Internet no-no in my book, especially with a 3000$ item. There are more of these lenses out there...
    JAAP
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Thanks Rob and Wayne, all great images so you have "sold" me! Woody I know the problem of carrying heavy gear as I am not too far behind you in the age stakes!

    However I do regularly haul 7.5 Kg (16.5lbs) of R9/DMR and lenses around with me, so I will keep at it until I have to reduce the weight a bit!

    I guess it is not possible to use a converter on the 105-180 zoom?
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    1.4x apo or 2x apo. With outstanding results, I'm told. Both these stacked even gave more than decent results on my 280/4.0 apo, so I suspect you can even stack them on this lens
    Last edited by jaapv; 10th March 2008 at 05:20.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post

    I guess it is not possible to use a converter on the 105-180 zoom?
    It will work with either converter. I don't tend to use mine with converters because I have a 400mm f2.8 that I can move up to for longer reach.

    I suppose for Jaap's use on a safari, the loss of one or two stops of light would not matter out in the bright daylight.

    Robert

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    That is correct, Rob, I might add, these converters are amazing. On the 280 apo 4.0 the image quality loss is negligable, if any, and as I said, even stacked to make an 800/11 it is better than cropping. And the lack of weight more than makes up for the lack of speed when hiking in 110 degrees.
    Last edited by jaapv; 10th March 2008 at 08:54.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Interesting. I looks at the various forums and at some dealers for lenses often and rarely saw a 105-280/4.2. Now they're as thick as thieves.

    jaapv -if reluctant to use wire transfer with KEH (or work thru a US buddy), Kurland Photo (which has a good rep) has at least 3 for sale on their auction site.

    KEH does have a stellar rep, but their non-NA sales process can be a PITA and they aren't big on answering emails.

    That being said, I usually get an email reply within a day or so. I imagine they are simply inundated with emails.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Interesting. I looks at the various forums and at some dealers for lenses often and rarely saw a 105-280/4.2. Now they're as thick as thieves.
    Rob:

    If searching on Ebay and selecting world wide, you will get more than in the past, but I think it is just that more of the German photo shops are using Ebay now. On some of the international sellers, they are just advertising and may not actually have the lens, but know Leica has some in stock to order.

    I don't think there are that many out there just that we are seeing the same ones for sale over and over. If you search completed auctions, I doubt you will see that many of them sold. Actually, I just searched completed and none came up.

    BTW, there is one for sale by Samy's Camera in LA. I have dealt with them in the past and they are a large and reputable company.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-Zoom-105-2...QQcmdZViewItem

    Robert

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    When I got mine (20 months ago) a German ebay had buy it now for about US$5-5500. A year later the buy now from same people was about 3000. Not sure about now though.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Yes-You mean SH-Photo from Nuerenberg - watch this space...
    JAAP
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Thought this might be useful. Kurland Photo has 3 different 105-280/4.2 R lenses for sale on eBay. I have had good luck with new/demo products from them as the owner seems willing to commit to buying large quantities if needed to get a price break. I don t know about their fairness in grading used products. But he has 3 different lenses from 8+ to 9+ ..the cheapest below $2000. All ROM. The owners name is Eli and I would only deal with him on anything used.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Hah! Here it is! SH-Photo were brilliant, the German mail less so.
    Anyway, demo as new in box, ROM too, as-new 1.4x extender, not ROM, both sitting right beside me. I will test the optics this weekend.
    First impressions:
    Zoom ring: firm and positive, not extremely smooth.
    Focus: Very good and smooth, very long throw, but not the silky focussing of the 280/4.0 (but then, what is?) Focussing ring a bit narrow.
    Focusses down to about 1.5 meters, making it nearly macro on the extender.
    Well balanced on the DMR/R9. nice handrest, general impression:beautifully made.
    From the ergonomic point of view a good choice for my use i.e. hard work in African wild-parks. It will probably stay welded on the camera with the converter, whilst the M8 will take care of shorter lengths up to 135. It is not a light combo, but well, I'm a big bloke . Definitely Upstrap territory.
    I notice I will need a full matte screen.
    Does anybody know if the lack of a ROM on the converter makes any difference in practice?
    Last edited by jaapv; 31st March 2008 at 06:46.
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Does anybody know if the lack of a ROM on the converter makes any difference in practice?
    Leica has never made a 1.4x with rom. It probably doesn't make a difference with the exception of the exif. The DMR will doe vignette correction and other magic with ROM lenses, but the 105-280mm is pretty well behaved and probably doesn't need this correction.

    Robert

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    As a matter of interest does the 280/2.8 also need a matte screen to focus? Or is it just when using a converter with either the 280/2.8 or 105-280.4.2?
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    As a matter of interest does the 280/2.8 also need a matte screen to focus? Or is it just when using a converter with either the 280/2.8 or 105-280.4.2?
    In general, Dave I prefer a matte screen for all lenses over 200 mm, although up to f 4.0 or so, the microprism screen is very good to use too. But at 5.6 the microprisms clog up and a matte screen is the only option.
    JAAP
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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    A first try-out with the new lens plus converter. Just a quick ten minutes to see if it could compete with a follow-focus lens for flying birds. I was not disappointed.





    JAAP
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    The colours of my generation are black and white.

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Hah! Here it is! SH-Photo were brilliant, the German mail less so.
    Anyway, demo as new in box, ROM too, as-new 1.4x extender, not ROM, both sitting right beside me. I will test the optics this weekend.
    First impressions:
    Zoom ring: firm and positive, not extremely smooth.
    Focus: Very good and smooth, very long throw, but not the silky focussing of the 280/4.0 (but then, what is?) Focussing ring a bit narrow.
    Focusses down to about 1.5 meters, making it nearly macro on the extender.
    Well balanced on the DMR/R9. nice handrest, general impression:beautifully made.
    From the ergonomic point of view a good choice for my use i.e. hard work in African wild-parks. It will probably stay welded on the camera with the converter, whilst the M8 will take care of shorter lengths up to 135. It is not a light combo, but well, I'm a big bloke . Definitely Upstrap territory.
    I notice I will need a full matte screen.
    Does anybody know if the lack of a ROM on the converter makes any difference in practice?
    SH Photo is a very reliable, but expensive source for Leica products. There is rarely, if ever, a bargain. But if it is something you really want you can depend on the grading. This is my experience and I have bought 3 lenses from them over the past few years.

    Woody

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    Re: 280/2.8 APO Telyt Question

    Well, 2500 for the lens and 500 for the converter both of them demo ex+ grade was not expensive imo.
    JAAP
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