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Thread: More M9 rumours

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    More M9 rumours

    Hi there
    M9 rumour on photo.net
    Silly stuff perhaps.
    But I heard the same story from a big UK leica dealer, spoken with quite as much conviction . . . I refer back to my other post about the fact that they certainly wouldn't be advertising the fact right now.

    So, when you rubbish this rumour, please file it away for further recall, just in case it's right!

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Rubbish.

    Sounds like someone who didn't understand what the S2 is/will be.
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Rubbish.

    Sounds like someone who didn't understand what the S2 is/will be.
    Sure Lars
    but why was I told exactly the same thing by a UK dealer?
    (remember, he was speaking AUS dollars, not US)

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Sure Jono. I just wanted to say "Rubbish".
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    I believe you Jono.

    Others may scoff but I'm sure it's a natural step forward for the M system. However, unless there is a radical overhaul of the rangefinder focusing which makes it useable for me with my poor eyesight, I doubt I'd be interested.

    Come to think of it, at the price quoted AU$ 15000 or 8500 euro and the current price of Leica glass, it's gotten a little too ritch for me.
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Leica can't ship an M body at that price level. If its technology lifespan is anything like the M8 it will be hopelessly out of date after three years, no matter the build quality. Glass and film bodies could arguably be seen as more of a long term investment but a digital body has to be written off at a fairly aggressive pace.
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Leica can't ship an M body at that price level. If its technology lifespan is anything like the M8 it will be hopelessly out of date after three years, no matter the build quality. Glass and film bodies could arguably be seen as more of a long term investment but a digital body has to be written off at a fairly aggressive pace.
    That's true if you buy into all the marketing hype fed to the mass migrating Lemmings salivating for the next nano advancement that slashes prices of current gear while upping the ante for the next best thing that makes you an inferior photographer for not having.

    Stuff goes out of date because they brain washed people into believing they will be a better photographer with their latest greatest. Granted, some advancements can help you get somewhere depending on intent and application ... but most folks buy without knowing where they are going or why.

    I'd say my only true error in all this is not taking advantage of it because I'm idiotically impatient ... which is an expensive character flaw in today's photographic world. If I had just kept shooting my M7s and waited I could be using a M8 for 50% of what I paid initially. The one today is just as good as one from 2 years ago. IMO, $2,500. is more in line with what the camera is worth.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Sure Jono. I just wanted to say "Rubbish".
    Oh - be my guest then, I recognise my position around here as the chief rubishee (as opposed to rubisher)

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That's true if you buy into all the marketing hype fed to the mass migrating Lemmings salivating for the next nano advancement that slashes prices of current gear while upping the ante for the next best thing that makes you an inferior photographer for not having.

    Stuff goes out of date because they brain washed people into believing they will be a better photographer with their latest greatest. Granted, some advancements can help you get somewhere depending on intent and application ... but most folks buy without knowing where they are going or why.
    Hence all my angst in thinking about switching from Nikon to Sony.....

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Hence all my angst in thinking about switching from Nikon to Sony.....
    Absolutely Terry, but have hope, I'm the worst of the bad, and after nine months with the A900, I still don't have anything in my sights as a replacement. It's hard to see quite what would tempt me away (sounds like famous last words doesn't it!).

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Hence all my angst in thinking about switching from Nikon to Sony.....
    Depends on what your applications are doesn't it?

    For me, the A900 was a replacement for the Leica DMR, and a slew of Zeiss ZF lenses I used on the Nikons. It wasn't a replacement for the Nikons which I still use when high ISO and super speed is required.

    The applications drove that ... where better technology actually fit the need better ... in the case of both the DMR and Zeiss ZFs that it replaced, it was he Sony's high IQ ZA optics that are Auto Focus AND image stabilized in camera ... which I can use for a majority of my work.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Stuff goes out of date because they brain washed people into believing they will be a better photographer with their latest greatest.
    That would apply to the M8 if it was a good camera when it arrived. It wasn't, Leica screwed up on a number of issues that only Leicaphiles are in denial over, if it wasn't for the glass the M8 wouldn't last more than six months on the marketplace. Just try the exercise of imagining the same body at the same price point with a Canon or Nikon label and corresponding bayonet, it would have been a total embarrassment.

    As it stands there is room for improvement, which is why the tech lifespan of M8 is limited. Compare to M6, or M7 which will likely hold its value well over time.
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    That would apply to the M8 if it was a good camera when it arrived. It wasn't, Leica screwed up on a number of issues that only Leicaphiles are in denial over, if it wasn't for the glass the M8 wouldn't last more than six months on the marketplace. Just try the exercise of imagining the same body at the same price point with a Canon or Nikon label and corresponding bayonet, it would have been a total embarrassment.

    As it stands there is room for improvement, which is why the tech lifespan of M8 is limited. Compare to M6, or M7 which will likely hold its value well over time.
    Again, I see that as market hype and internet mob mentality ... which I frankly participated in

    Of course there is room for improvement. But it isn't here. And at what price when it is?

    But now having lived with the camera and seen what others have done with it (like my pal Irakly) ... I'm content with it for the work applications I use a rangefinder for. I do agree that if it was a rangefinder with average or less than average optics it would be a goose egg. But it isn't. I also don't agree with the camera label thing. The Epson proved that.

    To each his or her own.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Depends on what your applications are doesn't it?

    For me, the A900 was a replacement for the Leica DMR, and a slew of Zeiss ZF lenses I used on the Nikons. It wasn't a replacement for the Nikons which I still use when high ISO and super speed is required.

    The applications drove that ... where better technology actually fit the need better ... in the case of both the DMR and Zeiss ZFs that it replaced, it was he Sony's high IQ ZA optics that are Auto Focus AND image stabilized in camera ... which I can use for a majority of my work.
    Precisely,
    But I am an amateur so I could live with the D700 for a long time. I am not regretting the purchase of the A900 because there are a lot of things that I like about it. However, I have been rationalizing away (to myself) giving up the high ISO of the D700 which is nice to have. That being said going from multiple choice in great lenses for a given focal length on the M8, that was my biggest disappointment in buying lenses for Nikon.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    I have heard the same things about a future M9 over a month ago. M9, FF, end of year, 14-16MP, better, but not crazy better high ISO. Only time will tell what is fact and what is fiction. BUT, if they do release this camera at the end of the year, or announce it I should say, then I CAN see them asking $8k US for it as the M8.2 is already at $6k. I also think it this M9 is released, the M8.2 will still be offered much like the D300/D700 is today. Just my opinions of course.

    At $8k it steps in to D3x territory and it is a Leica which has always been priced much higher than a Nikon or Canon. Will it be as versatile as a D3x? Hell no! Will it provide amazing quality as the M8 does? You bet it will. So to those Leica fans with the funds, they will buy it (counts me out). Again, that is, IF this M9 stuff is all true.

    As for the S2...it will be one amazing camera BUT the cost will keep it out of the hands of many talented shooters IMO. I'd love to see some Jono landscapes with that camera!

    Also, I have been eyeballing all of these great A900 images you guys have been taking and I must say, it looks like a killer DSLR. Terry, I love your A900 images and that 135 1.8 looks amazing!
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    and here i am still getting my head around the original M8. i always seem to be a generation or two behind, sigh.... not that i'm unhappy, though i do wish i'd jumped on the offer to have the framelines and shutter upgraded at the older price some sweet soul offered me as i really would have liked that. at today's prices, it's likely i won't unless the camera breaks and i need to service it (since i have no warranty).

    as for high ISO performance, i am eagerly awaiting the return of my Epson. whatever the reason, it is still much more pleasing to my eye in that regard, not to mention the ease of manual control on the top.

    DSLR's are much trickier. we have discussed getting a D700 in the household as we have a lot of manual Nikon lenses and love the low light capabilities, but the A900 images make us drool.... don't think we'll be making any decision soon.

    i've learned to call Kevin for shots that i know are hopeless on the rangefinder, even with my lovely glass.... and to be very content with what i have, older bodies or no.

    although the grass is always greener, i consider myself blessed to have what i have, outdated though it may be. my goal is to be able to live up to the camera and show what is possible with it in the hands of a lunatic who cares more about the moment than technical perfection

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post

    although the grass is always greener, i consider myself blessed to have what i have, outdated though it may be. my goal is to be able to live up to the camera and show what is possible with it in the hands of a lunatic who cares more about the moment than technical perfection
    AMEN!
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Keep an eye on those rumors... I guess only time will tell, right?

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    and here i am still getting my head around the original M8.
    Same here and I'm using glass from the 40's and 50's

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    although the grass is always greener, i consider myself blessed to have what i have, outdated though it may be. my goal is to be able to live up to the camera and show what is possible with it in the hands of a lunatic who cares more about the moment than technical perfection
    Hi Cam
    there's nothing lunatic about that - I'm afraid that my gadget freakery is in direct conflict with my photographic accomplishments. Sometimes I think it'd be nice to have one camera and one lens and just take pictures!

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Sometimes I think it'd be nice to have one camera and one lens and just take pictures!
    But then what do you use to snap an image of that one camera and one lens when someone here has a question and you need an image of it for illustrative purposes? Certainly not your cellphone!

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Cam
    there's nothing lunatic about that - I'm afraid that my gadget freakery is in direct conflict with my photographic accomplishments. Sometimes I think it'd be nice to have one camera and one lens and just take pictures!
    not saying there's anything lunatic about it -- was just saying that I am a lunatic

    and, despite my nice assortment of lenses, i do often go out with one camera, one lens -- as i find it much easier to get the feel that way (i am hoping my 35 Lux Asph will be that lens). the only time i go to other lenses is when i know i will be out after dark (Nocti) or want to play with portraiture or shooting at a cafe (75 Lux). there is a certain luxury in simplicity.

    i seriously doubt i will ever be one to lug a lot of lenses around -- it's just not my style (not that there's anything wrong with that). i'm just a fixed kind of gal, who finds zooms and multiple focal lengths confusing and confining rather than expressive. i like to use my legs instead, running into difficulty only with the closest focusing available (hence my longer lenses) and sometimes in the metro (backing up without looking is not a smart thing to do there ).

    it's kind of freeing, and i heartedly recommend the one camera, one lens exercise to gadget freaks such as yourself -- even if it's only for a day. i think it makes you appreciate what you have so much more! then again, i might just be full of bollocks....

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    But then what do you use to snap an image of that one camera and one lens when someone here has a question and you need an image of it for illustrative purposes? Certainly not your cellphone!
    Certainly not my mobile -- it doesn't have a camera
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    it's kind of freeing, and i heartedly recommend the one camera, one lens exercise to gadget freaks such as yourself -- even if it's only for a day. i think it makes you appreciate what you have so much more! then again, i might just be full of bollocks....
    HI Cam
    Actually, I do it lots of the time - I don't like lugging stuff around, so I'll stick one lens on the camera, put it over my shoulder and bugger off. I do like zooms on slr's though - but they do need to be decent zooms!

    When I'm out taking photos my gadget freakery disappears in an instant (no special straps/waistcoats/tripods/accessories - although I am partial to a nice bag).

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    not saying there's anything lunatic about it -- was just saying that I am a lunatic

    Na just artistic expressionist. Sounds better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by stevem8 View Post
    I have heard the same things about a future M9 over a month ago. M9, FF, end of year, 14-16MP, better, but not crazy better high ISO.
    It is interesting to note that the S2, P65+ and D3X share a pixel density of about 166.6 pixels/mm. Thus...

    1) 16.6MP @ 20x30mm

    2) 24MP @ 24x36mm

    If 14-16 would be real, perhaps not FF and why such incremental increase that hardly makes difference?? On other hand... if Leica did solve the issue of FF on RF, then... 2) would be interesting in the market, would it not?

    I have no idea whatsoever what they are up to though...

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    not saying there's anything lunatic about it -- was just saying that I am a lunatic

    and, despite my nice assortment of lenses, i do often go out with one camera, one lens -- as i find it much easier to get the feel that way (i am hoping my 35 Lux Asph will be that lens). the only time i go to other lenses is when i know i will be out after dark (Nocti) or want to play with portraiture or shooting at a cafe (75 Lux). there is a certain luxury in simplicity.

    i seriously doubt i will ever be one to lug a lot of lenses around -- it's just not my style (not that there's anything wrong with that). i'm just a fixed kind of gal, who finds zooms and multiple focal lengths confusing and confining rather than expressive. i like to use my legs instead, running into difficulty only with the closest focusing available (hence my longer lenses) and sometimes in the metro (backing up without looking is not a smart thing to do there ).

    its kind of freeing, and i heartedly recommend the one camera, one lens exercise to gadget freaks such as yourself -- even if it's only for a day. i think it makes you appreciate what you have so much more! then again, i might just be full of bollocks....
    Hmmm, a day in deprivation Hell ... no thanks. Maybe a few minutes with one camera/one lens as long as there is a bag of lenses somewhere close in case of withdrawal ... you know, the shakes and double vision and all that ... symptoms that aren't conducive to photography.

    What's "Freeing" is to have ALL of EVERYTHING ever made worth having. Then you don't have to think about the next thing you may want. Totally liberating ... I highly recommend it.


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    Re: More M9 rumours

    I agree.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    I can't tell you how much money I have spent trying to find the "ideal" camera for my work.

    What I can tell you is that after three years of using everything from MF Film (Mamiya 7II and lenses) to old Leica M3, to modern MFDB (Hassy H3D) and modern M (M8's) and of course my Nikon kit which goes from an F5 and F100 to the D3 and D3X I have drawn my own conclusions:

    I could not live without my M8's and lenses for both IQ and the fact that it is the ultimate travel system. Just no question for me.

    I could (now) not live without my D3X for those landscape shots that need to be printed big. I have shot many many comparisons to my Hassy H3D and while the D3X is not quite up to the subtle tonalites of the H3 and of course you can natively print larger with the H3, all of the advantages from High ISO to high shutter speeds and makro lenses and long telephotos, you just can't beat the D3X.

    I am sure i could say the same things about the A900 if I ever had used one but I wasn't up to losing all the money on my Nikon and Zeiss ZF lenses to get to a whole new system. It was cheaper to spend the extra money for the D3X body compared to the A900 for me.

    Plus, at 72 years old I must get the weight of my system down to something I can carry into the canyons and hills of the Southwest where I do most of my shooting. If I were shooting from within a few hundred yards of my car I would be more tempted by my H3D. But going a mile or two into canyon country and up and down hills I simply can't do it. So no matter the other advantages that is a killer for me.

    My ideal camera would be a higher ISO 16 Mpx M body to use with all the wonderful M lenses I own. Then I could take a tripod on one shoulder and the kit bag of M stuff on the other and traipse through the canyons til my heart's content. I would pay $8K for that privilege just because I would do more shooting as a consequence.

    JMHO

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I could (now) not live without my D3X for those landscape shots that need to be printed big. I have shot many many comparisons to my Hassy H3D and while the D3X is not quite up to the subtle tonalites of the H3 and of course you can natively print larger with the H3, all of the advantages from High ISO to high shutter speeds and makro lenses and long telephotos, you just can't beat the D3X.

    Woody
    this is interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post

    My ideal camera would be a higher ISO 16 Mpx M body to use with all the wonderful M lenses I own.
    Woody
    why not 24mp like Andres sais? and FF
    Last edited by gero; 3rd June 2009 at 09:59.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by gero View Post
    this is interesting



    why not 24mp like Andres sais? and FF
    I would certainly have no problem with either. When I quoted 16Mpx on a cropped format camera I was looking at something I felt would not be a real technical challenge for Leica

    Woody

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Well, If it's coming, then what I've heard is that the firmware will be basically the same as the S2 and R10, and that it will be full frame - As Anders points out, that makes it pretty much certain that it'll be 24mp, rather than 16 or 18.

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    It will have as much hardware from the S2 as possible, that's for sure. The Maestro DSP, basic firmware and propably control concept (display with four buttons).
    Two things are crucial:

    - The angular response of a larger sensor
    - The thin cover glass with IR-filtering

    http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/PDF...ings_final.pdf

    The third page shows a graph of the angular response, it's similar to the previous generation of CCDs without microlenses, which worked fine with real WA (Rodenstock HR/Digitars), so it should also work with M-lenses?

    With todays high fill-rate it doesn't seem to matter as much anymore how many megaxpixels are sitting on a sensor, as long as the sum of light-sensitive area (= sensor size) remains the same. A 24MP-sensor will have more noise-per-pixel, but noise-perception will be similar to a 12MP-sensor, given the same resolution in the print.

    What I'm really hoping for is some kind of live-view, even a B/W-version (like in some MFDBs) would be fine, it makes tripod work with precise framing much easier with a rangefinder!

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    - The angular response of a larger sensor
    - The thin cover glass with IR-filtering
    HI There
    I understood that with the new Kodak sensors the IR filtering was in the micro lenses (which would be necessary on an M camera with the changing angle of incidence).

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    But then what do you use to snap an image of that one camera and one lens when someone here has a question and you need an image of it for illustrative purposes? Certainly not your cellphone!
    a mirror


    is there a prize? no? what nothing?
    Last edited by nei1; 3rd June 2009 at 14:30.

  36. #36
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    Re: More M9 rumours


  37. #37
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    None of my usual sources can confirm anything of the sort. Not even hearing rumors or hints of a new M digital.

    If it comes ... great. If not, just keep shooting what you have.

    Investments in glass are a solid M strategy ... the optical hits just keep coming. Actually, I'm more interested in what may be next in the M lens department.

    Some more M8 firmware improvements would also be welcome. Many of my other digital cameras have visibly improved higher ISO performance without altering existing hardware ... why not the Leica M8?

    I'd be a very happy camper if ISO 1250 could be made more useable. Or even split the difference @ ISO 800 or 1000.

    Constantly looking to "what might be" is irritating, I'd prefer they improve what I already paid an arm & leg for ... so I can make better use of it, and the King's ransom in lenses I've invested in.



    -Marc

  38. #38
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Constantly looking to "what might be" is irritating, I'd prefer they improve what I already paid an arm & leg for ... so I can make better use of it, and the King's ransom in lenses I've invested in.



    -Marc
    HI Marc
    I quite agree -
    I'm sure you have better contacts than I,
    perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread
    Last edited by jonoslack; 4th June 2009 at 07:56.

    Just this guy you know

  39. #39
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    I heard this morning from my dealer that a future (6 months to a year) full frame M is a pretty sure bet and that it will come in priced around the same as the current M8.2. Nice thing to know as there is no way I would like to get saddled with a $6K 21mm (or even 24) lens when my 28 cron and 35 Lux ASPH will really what I'll want to use.

    So start saving your $ and Pounds. I know for me, a full frame M will be game over.

  40. #40
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    No, no, no, you guys are getting the wrong take on this. Here's the real info, leaked by an authoritative Leica headquarters employee who had underestimated the effects of American bourbon:

    -- Capitalizing on the huge activity and interest in participating in Internet photo forums, Leica is taking the next logical step into the "digital age" by ceasing the complex and expensive production of actual cameras, and instead specializing in the manufacture of camera rumours.

    -- Beginning this fall, every Leica customer will be able to purchase his or her own exclusive rumour, crafted with all the quality and precision you have come to expect from the Leica brand name. Your rumour will include a full package of highly engineered components including factory leaks, dealer gossip, blurry spy photos, mysterious sketches, patent filings and provocative listings of possible specifications... all the finely finished details that will bring you prestige and authority when you post them on photo forums.

    -- Customers demanding an even more individualised and distinctive rumour will be able to utilise Leica's "A La Carte" program to have their rumours customized with their choice of finishes and materials.

    -- Your Leica rumour will be fully covered by the Passport Protection Plan; if it becomes discredited, disparaged or otherwise broken within three years of purchase, it will be replaced with a new rumour at no additional charge.

    -- The Research and Development division already is working on future technological enhancements such as distribution of rumour components via Twitter feeds and high-definition online video, but no delivery date for these or other improvements has been proposed.

    Clearly this new direction for photography's most respected name will be a great benefit to Leica and its customers alike.

    Leica will improve its financial position through elimination of the expense and bother of buying raw materials, tooling, etc.; and cleanliness of facilities will be increased by removal of messy metalworking and painting operations.

    Also, the move eliminates the need to hire and train replacement workers for the Leica employees who actually are involved in camera production (Jurgen, Hans, Frieda, Kurt, Liesl, and that Polish guy in the back that nobody talks to) all of whom are scheduled to retire within the next three years.

    Customers will benefit by enjoying an exciting new product offering which will align more closely with camera users' interests, allowing them to spend even more time posting on photo forums while spending less time on tedious activities such as photography. Research has shown that photography is declining sharply in popularity among camera owners because it carries the risks of getting their lenses dirty and of coming into contact with dangerous and unpleasant phenomena such as wildlife, inclement weather conditions, and persons of lower socioeconomic standing.

    Other industry rumours suggest that Canon, Nikon, Pentax et al have already picked up hints of Leica's plans and have launched their own crash R&D programs aimed at phasing out camera manufacture and concentrating fully on rumour production. So once again, Leica is leading the camera industry as it did almost 80 years ago!

  41. #41
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    Re: More M9 rumours


    Now I am glad I started the thread

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    Re: More M9 rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    No, no, no, you guys are getting the wrong take on this. Here's the real info, leaked by an authoritative Leica headquarters employee who had underestimated the effects of American bourbon:

    -- Capitalizing on the huge activity and interest in participating in Internet photo forums, Leica is taking the next logical step into the "digital age" by ceasing the complex and expensive production of actual cameras, and instead specializing in the manufacture of camera rumours.
    LMFAO. This is one of the funniest things I've read in a longtime. Thanks for making my day. You could have a lot of fun with this on the Leica forums....there are a lot of rumor-bators there.

  43. #43
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    so will there be special Safari and obscure anniversary editions of these rumours for people who would never actually spread a rumour but like the idea of having one to keep in their special bespoke computer that is never actually connected to the internet with the hope that it will somehow rise in value?

    Also if you happen to purchase expensive add on insinuations and speculations for your rumor will you have to send your whole rumor back to Solms to make sure the syntax and spelling is still compatible and makes grammatical sense?

    :-)

    K

  44. #44
    andybarton
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    LUF has hot-off-the-press info re the full frame M and the "R10", straight from Stefan Daniel's talk to the forum members in Germany this evening

    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...10-coming.html

    Thought you guys over here may be interested.

  45. #45
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    Re: More M9 rumours

    No R10 but a rose by any other name is just a sweet....

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


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