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Thread: The end of the line for the R

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    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    The end of the line for the R

    Finally the final word on the future of the R system. I a meeting of the LUF in Hessenpark Stefan Daniel announced this bombshell.
    Leica will not attempt to muscle in on the DSLR market, as they see it a a sure way to commit harakiri.
    But there is no reason to sell your R lenses (unless, of course, you want to send them to me )

    In a later conversation I had with Stefan later he outlined Leica's plans with full commitment:
    Leica will have a FF EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses and of Leica quality. On the the EVF he said that Leica regards the G1 EVF as the very lowest acceptable quality and is aiming to offer something substantially better.
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Hi There Jaap
    Thank you for that - I'd have loved to have been there.
    FF EVF eh! presumably it'll be made by panasonic.
    We live in strange times . . . any news on anything else coming up?

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    M9 (or M8.3) coming soon, just after the S2 that is on schedule. If 1.3x, M8.3, if FF M9. Solution for the IR filter "possible but difficult" S2 technology for the next M morph. Upgrade program, the current will continue, but no new ones, due to dealer protests
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    andybarton
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    As I have posted here already, full story as we know it for M and R line is on LUF

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by andybarton View Post
    As I have posted here already, full story as we know it for M and R line is on LUF
    Come on Andy.........most of us already use both these sites for our daily Leica uptakes. You don't need to try to swing these folks from one to the other. Let us all have fun and use both!

    JMHO

    Woody Spedden

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    ... Leica will have a FF EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses and of Leica quality. On the the EVF he said that Leica regards the G1 EVF as the very lowest acceptable quality and is aiming to offer something substantially better.
    Sounds quite sensible to me. Dispense with that ancient, noisy, flipping mirror bit and use that superb lenses on a modern camera. The G1 viewfinder already smashes most pro-35mm SLR viewfinders flat when it comes to ease of use, critical focusing, etc, for most purposes. Make something better and get major bonus points.

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Leica will have a FF EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses and of Leica quality. On the the EVF he said that Leica regards the G1 EVF as the very lowest acceptable quality and is aiming to offer something substantially better.
    OK maybe I don't need to get a spare DMR.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    It ought to be substantially better for the price it's gonna cost.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Not necessarily if it is a full frame G1 as we can suspect. Better than stop down metering with Canikon?

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    What a crap answer for the successor to the DMR. Leica fumbled this one so many times that they couldn t recover. Does any current R user really want an EVF solution? They have world class lenses ..better than any others by a margin...and they can t figure out what many have been saying for years. Do a deal like Zeiss did with Sony and marry the Leica lenses to a decent DSLR made by someone else.

    And the transition plan for the M s ...wow ..read the stuff at LUF...probably an improved M8.3 before the M9. Of course that might even make sense . If they improve the ISO performance and have a maybe a slightly larger sensor....it will sell.

    You would have to almost try to do a worst job of product planning.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    You'd REALLY have to try - hard.
    Last edited by robmac; 13th June 2009 at 11:14.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What a crap answer for the successor to the DMR.
    You can say that again Roger. This is not what I was hoping for. Just ordered two new batteries for my DMR since it appears I will be shooting with it for a while.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Finally the final word on the future of the R system. I a meeting of the LUF in Hessenpark Stefan Daniel announced this bombshell.
    Leica will not attempt to muscle in on the DSLR market, as they see it a a sure way to commit harakiri.
    But there is no reason to sell your R lenses (unless, of course, you want to send them to me )

    In a later conversation I had with Stefan later he outlined Leica's plans with full commitment:
    Leica will have a FF EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses and of Leica quality. On the the EVF he said that Leica regards the G1 EVF as the very lowest acceptable quality and is aiming to offer something substantially better.
    sadly the EFV bar is not set very high..infact the g1 EVF,.. I would consider not acceptable for professional work..or serious amateur shooting..this trade off of lower mechanical functioning and product development costs for the potential gain of what? This at the expense of the "R".. it is a slippery slope we are on and to say again, just produce some new dmr batteries to see me through the waiting game for a small sensor professional camera.

    Now that their attention is fixed squarly on the S2, I hope the powers in charge will put it in gear and release a S2 system that is complete enough
    to intice commercial shooters to buy into it..a camera + 4 lenses is plenty for what I do, but not what a lot of others shoot with.

    If they want some quick action on sales.. how about this offer for the first 1000 pro's willing to pony-up, "buy the whole kit get an extra body". that would kick-start this thing.

    There are more than one of us Rollei users that are concerned about the future with franke-heidecke products and a little incentive would go a long way.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    For me these messages are making clear what I feared all the time in the background - Leica is going down the road and will hit the wall sometimes pretty soon.

    Reasons are simple - they messed up their loyal customers so many times that I do not believe someone else except a serious collector would give anything on their messages and communication and future products any longer.

    And not sure if you have read on LUF or heard somewhere else or if true - the S2 with lens shall be above €20k which means something like above $20k - man if this is true they will not sell many and this S system will be their next disaster

    I cannot believe a company making so many silly mistakes again and again over years and under different owners, Shows me that they all are not down to earth and having no glue about customer needs, wishes and the market at all.

    As a European I am NOT proud any longer that this is a European / German company - sorry to say that.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    sadly the EFV bar is not set very high..infact the g1 EVF,.. I would consider not acceptable for professional work..or serious amateur shooting..
    That's interesting. I use my G1 for professional shooting and find its excellent EVF allows me to nail critical focus and framing better than my pro-grade SLR bodies. Isn't that what a viewfinder is supposed to do?

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That's interesting. I use my G1 for professional shooting and find its excellent EVF allows me to nail critical focus and framing better than my pro-grade SLR bodies. Isn't that what a viewfinder is supposed to do?
    The problem with the G1 viewfinder for me is that if one uses the magnification one cant compose the imae any more.
    If one doesnt use magnigication it works ok. The fact that the g1 is a 4/3-camera helps with its longer DOF compared to full frame.
    I dont see how the g1 focuses more accurate than a D3 or D3x so I can not share your theory.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The problem with the G1 viewfinder for me is that if one uses the magnification one cant compose the imae any more.
    If one doesnt use magnigication it works ok. The fact that the g1 is a 4/3-camera helps with its longer DOF compared to full frame.
    I dont see how the g1 focuses more accurate than a D3 or D3x so I can not share your theory.
    I have my G1 set up so that I can compose, press button to start magnification, move cursor to point of focus, press to magnify, focus, press shutter to return to regular magnification and adjust framing. The G1 allows more precise focus than my D700 or Fuji S5. If it had the sensor of the D700, then it would be perfect.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    No real R10 DSLR? Disappointing, for sure. If true, I guess this really is the end of the line and Leica has made one heck of a stupid decision. Glad I bought the R8 and a few R lenses for their own sake, although it would have been nice to put them on a R series DSLR someday.

    Gary
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Anyone know of a good deal on a DMR?

    Gary

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That's interesting. I use my G1 for professional shooting and find its excellent EVF allows me to nail critical focus and framing better than my pro-grade SLR bodies. Isn't that what a viewfinder is supposed to do?
    I said that wrong godfrey, I should have said for me I find the evf innadequate for professional work, but I have been spoiled by big viewfinders on the older equipment and large pieces of ground glass..I am sure they produce very good results for those like yourself who are use to them and have grown to like them...it is tough to teach old dogs new evf tricks. It is all gets down to what you like to shoot with..and my eyes need as big and bright a viewfinder as possible.. it also seems that I use a small handheld camera in bad lighting conditions and that makes it even worse.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    No real R10 DSLR? Disappointing, for sure. If true, I guess this really is the end of the line and Leica has made one heck of a stupid decision. Glad I bought the R8 and a few R lenses for their own sake, although it would have been nice to put them on a R series DSLR someday.

    Gary
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    I think if you wait a year or so when Leica has a chance to put out there their legacy R glass solution, you will find that it is a good one for the future.
    yes look for a dmr, I am sure they will continue to be a good deal if in good shape for the next couple of years.. it provides really good files if you don't need to go too big.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    This is beyond disappointing and I guess I should have expected something like this from Leica. The only buisness model that is accepted in Solms must include preservation of German manufacturing jobs. If you start with that goal ..the decisions Leica has made and is making today follows. Products made elsewhere are fine if they generate revenue that supports the new factory in Wetzler.

    You can see this theme in the S2. Business partnerships are utilized to maintain world class standards ( the chip,microprocessor and software) but not to manage costs. Every body/ lens to be made in Germany? The totally incompetent supply chain of German component manufacturers will be brought in house . And this will translate into a "value proposition" for whom? Make a list of what s relevant to a working pro(and by that I mean someone that could actually make money from and thereby benefit from the capabilities of the S2).

    The S2 will sell to some financially capable buyers who can ignore the value proposition and just want one. Not unlike buying a Porsche...of course it makes no sense..but its what I want so damn the cost and the abuse I have to take. Nothing like having a track proven car that will do zero to 60 in less than 5 seconds.

    Unfortunately we wanted a body that took our much loved R lenses. A new R that would be FF,have better high ISO and 15-20MP and auto focus lenses. Of course you can t make the camera in Wetzler unless you start with major components made at lower costs. Even better ..don t make it at all ..just have it made to tighter tolerances than Canon or Nikon.

    No one suspected that the breakthrough idea would be an "adequate" EVF DSLR made by Panasonic. Something closer to the Sony A900 is what most wanted.

    Leica should just own up and kill the whole idea of a Leica branded EVF DSLR....this isn t going to fly.

  23. #23
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    I don't have any R glass but I can quite understand how people who do feel about this announcement by thinking what an M9 substitute from Panasonic would be like. Live View/EVF only, gratuitous complexity, a user interface from hell, no thanks.

    Don't get me wrong, I have a G1, like it for the opportunity to use it with M glass but there is so much stuff in there I don't want or need - starting with the puny built-in flash through to the scene modes - that it can never be a serious camera for me. Sure, my big Nikons have options aplenty but they don't get in the way like they do on the Panasonic. The S(-tupid) mode on the M8.2 is, for me, the start of a slippery slope in any case.

    How is this new camera going to be anyway? Restricting its use to those with R glass is hardly going to work so there would have to be a new range of AF lenses, presumably made by Panasonic with Leica IP. Overall, this just sounds too much like a re-run of the Digilux-3 debacle. An unloved clunker, a commercial disaster. Remember the Panasonic Lens Road Map which lead nowhere?

    I can more than understand how disappointed R users must be by this announcement and take no comfort at all that I am M only because the same could all too easily happen to us.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    I just don't understand why Leica can not release this sort of information in a professional manner. They should have had hand out and a webpage ready to go up the minute the meeting was over. I go and check Leica U.S.A.'s web "News" and learn Leica has opened a store in Moscow.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Sad news indeed. But not unexpected.

    The state of DSLRs has advanced so rapidly, and there are so many choices now available, that it does seem a daunting task to undertake.

    While the S2 is all well and good, I do wish they would concentrate on improving the performance of the M8 & M8-2 while looking to eventually deliver a FF M9. Just improve the ISO performance some and I'd be a happy camper for awhile.

    It seems Leica cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    After all that mess they are in meanwhile, I have my doubts about the S2.

    I am getting to feel this system and especially the camera will be:

    1) outdated then it comes to market
    2) too expensive (somewhere 20.000.- were mentioned for body and lens
    3) who will trust Leica and their cryptic product strategy and NON willingness for somehow open communication - this degrades all Leicas to pure luxury articles, far away from anything useful for daily business

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Leica probably looked at their (lack of) sale of new R glass over the last few years and came to the conclusion that releasing an R10 would prove to be nice for a handful of dyed in the wool R users who already own glass, and maybe a few new users who would get their glass on the used market, but probably wouldn't do much for the sale of new lenses due to the astronomical price they would have to be compared to the already established competition.

    I agree with fotograz - they really should have just stuck to the M and compact line (where's the DP1/2 killer?). The S2 could possibly sink them for good and that would be sad.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Anyone know of a good deal on a DMR?

    Gary
    I am so pleased that I sold my R9/DMR back in January when the writing was already on the wall in my view. (Reports of spares and service difficulty for the DMR)

    My Sony A900 with Zeiss and some Sony (read Minolta) lenses are a formidable combination. Although I am disappointed that there will not be an R10, in reality it would have to have been been very, very special to tempt me away from my Sony FF DSLR
    Cheers, Dave
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am so pleased that I sold my R9/DMR back in January when the writing was already on the wall in my view. (Reports of spares and service difficulty for the DMR)

    My Sony A900 with Zeiss and some Sony (read Minolta) lenses are a formidable combination. Although I am disappointed that there will not be an R10, in reality it would have to have been been very, very special to tempt me away from my Sony FF DSLR
    Dave,

    exactly as I see it. For FF 35mm THE SYSTEM is most probably Sony, if you are looking for highest IQ.

    If you want something better, the only way which makes sense is to go with a MFDB.

    An R system would not have any chance between these fronts

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    Leica probably looked at their (lack of) sale of new R glass over the last few years and came to the conclusion that releasing an R10 would prove to be nice for a handful of dyed in the wool R users who already own glass, and maybe a few new users who would get their glass on the used market, but probably wouldn't do much for the sale of new lenses due to the astronomical price they would have to be compared to the already established competition.

    I agree with fotograz - they really should have just stuck to the M and compact line (where's the DP1/2 killer?). The S2 could possibly sink them for good and that would be sad.
    Personally, I don't care if Leica were in the compact business or not. I feel like they compromised their positioning in the marketplace with all those overprice re-badged cameras. Perhaps they made money on them, but at what cost?

    It is a shame that outlets for their true genius for optics are becoming more and more limited. I hope the S2 is a roaring success for them ... a place for that genius to shine.

    While I am a long time fan of Zeiss optics, in general Leica has been the leader, with Zeiss an also ran.

    The R 21/2.8, 50/1.4, 90AA, 180/2.8APO, 280/2.8APO and unique 35/1.4 & 80/1.4 in AF versions on a FF 35mm digital R10 that continued the IQ lead of the DMR would have been my preference over most anything.

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

    So, the A900 became the successor to my much loved but impractical DMR and Contax N digital. My passion camera system compared to my highly capable and sensibly practical workhorse Nikons that make the money to indulge in flights photographic fancy

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The R 21/2.8, 50/1.4, 90AA, 180/2.8APO, 280/2.8APO and unique 35/1.4 & 80/1.4 in AF versions on a FF 35mm digital R10 that continued the IQ lead of the DMR would have been my preference over most anything.
    Yes, don't they realize how good the R glass is on the DMR and what stellar images it produces?!?! Admittedly, it performs best in good light and doesn't have the feature set to be as versatile as the leading DSLR's but they really had something special with the DMR and to not follow up on that seems a shame. Oh well, I can understand - they'll have their hands full with the S2 and the M8.3/M9 and barely enough resources for them so no R10 it is.

    Marc - don't forget the 19mm, 28mm, and the two macros!
    AND I was really hoping for a 135/2.0 APO to go along with the R10, wouldn't that have been sweet.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    At last they've seen the writing on the wall. Apart from the M (ans possibly the S2, we'll see), there's no reason why Leica should make camera bodies. Although EVFs aren't up to standards yet, they will be in the future, and then, a camera will be an electronic device. Panasonic knows a lot more about manufacturing electronic devices than Leica will ever learn.

    A full frame Panasonic camera with EVF and Leica AF lenses sounds like a brilliant idea. It will sell, maybe not to us old guys, but to the likes of my son, who would love to have a red dot that matches his blue and white one.

    Yeah, yeah... I prefer optical viewfinders too, but look at the new Olympus. It doesn't even have an electronic one. There will hopefully always be other cameras to choose from for stubborn, quality conscious old men and women, and when there isn't, I'm going back to film

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    ....when there isn't, I'm going back to film
    ....and manual focus lenses.

    I know that for alot of folks, autofocus lenses are an absolute must have, but for my slow methodical style and subjects I really prefer manual focus lenses. The Leica R lenses are a real joy to use in that regard. Leica MF R lenses on a digital Leica R10 would have been perfect for my needs/desires, but I guess the R8 and a scanner will work fine too.

    Gary
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  34. #34
    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    ....and manual focus lenses.

    I know that for alot of folks, autofocus lenses are an absolute must have, but for my slow methodical style and subjects I really prefer manual focus lenses. The Leica R lenses are a real joy to use in that regard. Leica MF R lenses on a digital Leica R10 would have been perfect for my needs/desires, but I guess the R8 and a scanner will work fine too.

    Gary
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    Slow subjects? There are a number of posters here that would disagree Up to and including flying hummingbirds...
    Doug, Lawrence, in a more modest way me....
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=766&page=13
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Yes, don't they realize how good the R glass is on the DMR and what stellar images it produces?!?! Admittedly, it performs best in good light and doesn't have the feature set to be as versatile as the leading DSLR's but they really had something special with the DMR and to not follow up on that seems a shame. Oh well, I can understand - they'll have their hands full with the S2 and the M8.3/M9 and barely enough resources for them so no R10 it is.

    Marc - don't forget the 19mm, 28mm, and the two macros!
    AND I was really hoping for a 135/2.0 APO to go along with the R10, wouldn't that have been sweet.
    Yes, yes, I actually meant the 19 not 21 ... and how could I have forgotten the best 35mm format 100 macro ever made by anyone?

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    can the R lenses fit the sony through an adapter? I am thinking of a ff digital alternative to the Canons.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    No adapter solutions as far as I know.
    But with Leitax you can change the R lens mount to fit the Sony Alpha mount.
    Stop down metering only though, and how compelling is that ?
    http://www.leitax.com/Leica-lens-for-Sony-cameras.html

    Sigh, I had high hopes for an R mount DSLR with a big and bright optical view finder, optimized for manual focus. So many manufacturers could easily build it. They already have, only they are not R mount.

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    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    The only rationale I can think of about this decision is that Leica was concerned an R product could cannibalize the sales of the new S system. In my opinion they should have done a new R system first then the S…but what do I know…..
    Mike

    website under construction

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Slow subjects? There are a number of posters here that would disagree Up to and including flying hummingbirds...
    Doug, Lawrence, in a more modest way me....
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=766&page=13
    Yes, I've marveled at those hummingbird photos etc taken with manual focus lenses.....a real testament to the skills of the photographers!! I'm afraid that I am not equally skilled (hence my preference for stationary subjects), but I nonetheless enjoy the simple act of bringing a lens into focus the old fashioned way.

    When I made that comment, I had in mind Marc's comments about his experience with shooting weddings.

    Gary
    Alaska

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    There are more than one of us Rollei users that are concerned about the future with franke-heidecke products and a little incentive would go a long way.
    Amen to that.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
    My lab is here: http://www.customphotolab.is and on facebook

  41. #41
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by andybarton View Post
    As I have posted here already, full story as we know it for M and R line is on LUF
    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Come on Andy.........most of us already use both these sites for our daily Leica uptakes. You don't need to try to swing these folks from one to the other. Let us all have fun and use both!

    JMHO

    Woody Spedden

    This is COMPLETELY allowed as Jack and I are members on the LUF as well our moderators and any moderator or admin from LUF is more than welcome to direct links back and forth to each forum on any news or info on either site. We and the LUF forums are open forums and above all else friends of each. Information is information and the more we all share the better we all are. Thanks Guy

    It's all about friendships. Thanks everyone
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Information is information and the more we all share the better we all are.
    that is IT.

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    Re: The end of the line for the R

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, yes, I actually meant the 19 not 21 ... and how could I have forgotten the best 35mm format 100 macro ever made by anyone?
    But you did forget the supreme 15 Elmarit, perhaps the best Super Wide Angle ever offered for 35mm. I had mine for a couple of years. I simply couldn't afford it given the amount of times I shoot that wide but performance wise!!!! This is it! Period

    Woody

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