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Thread: Let's talk R-10

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Let's talk R-10

    We all know it is coming and the rumor is next year at Photokinia 2008 which i believe is in Cologne in October. So what do you think leica will release.

    My guess now i don't have inside info here , the info channel is down to a zip lock bag that won't open for anyone even dealers and sales team . Big lid on what is going on but we have heard a few things.

    My guess little bit bigger than the 5D . Larger than FF sensor, yes there is a big image circle on the lenses so they maybe able to go bigger without issue. maybe even 30 x 40 or some dimension like that. Kodak CCD sensor and i am thinking at least 18 mpx, No AA . Rom will control all lens functions and still be manual focus but have 3 or 4 AF lenses that the motors are built into the lenses , so all manual lenses will still work and get focus confirmation through the Rom . 3 or 4 fps per second , SD cards SDHC, Big viewfinder. ISO levels very good at 1250. What else could we ask for. Bigger buffer for one
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    I think it may be unrealistic to expect the R10 to be 5D size. I would bet it is going to be more like the 1D size, maybe just a bit smaller.

    Another unrealistic expectation people have is that is will be priced like a M8. I expect it will be more in the Canon 1Ds MKIII price range, probably a bit higher.

    Finally, some have mentioned high frame rates. Leica has never had high frame rates in its SLR line and I don't see it being any different with the R10. My guess is 3.5 FPS at the most. Leica SLRs have too many heavy parts to move to get a high frame rate without a huge motor.

    Robert

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    I agree with Robert on the frame rate. Leica doesn't need to compete on speed.

    As far as size: What I've heard from the R product manager is that the R10 will be slightly smaller than the R9 with the motor winder (not motor drive).

    Guy, you left off 16-bit capture and a nice 3" screen that is visible in bright daylight (like the DMR screen).

    I also hope the hand strap from the DMR is kept as well.

    David

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Thanks David i sure did forget 16 bit and 3 inch screen. i agree also past 3.5 FPS is not what Leica shooters need.

    To be competitive it ALL has to be about image quality, that is what Leica is known for and anything less than not worth buying

    The hand strap is the BEST i have every used
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    photokina dates are September 23 - 28, 2008.

    Yes, keep the handstrap!
    Also keep the manual Mirror Pre-Release Lever from the R9. No need to go menu hunting for that.
    Clean and simple like the R9/DMR combo.
    If the base ISO level is 100 like the DMR then clean 800 and usable to 1250 would be great.
    I am very happy with the Kodak CCD sensor, if they change it must be better.
    I expect image quality to be very high.

    In the LFI interview Steven K. Lee states: "The R system needs to be the very best, the cream of the crop, and it has to stay that way. And I can tell you that there's a lot of room for improvement in terms of performance and handling. There's more R experience to be had."

    Now, let's see if he delivers on that. I have confidence Leica can do it.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Well let's see where I come out on this.

    I agree with Rob that size will not be the differentiator. This is likely to be a big body. No matter so long as the overall product delivers the image quality we all desire.

    Hoping that the latest kodak technology makes its way into this machine. The big yellow K still delivers the best goods and Kodak has learned a lot from its forays into MF. My guess, and good Lord knows it is a guess, is that the sensor will deliver around 16Mpix but a very different 16Mpix than the N or C competitors. When you consider what we got from 10 Mpx a non AA 16Mpx might be just what the doctor ordered. We'll see but I am very hopeful. If we can maintain a 24x36 sensor size all the lenses will be predictable and useful. Hopefully the fact that frame lines are not involved in a DSLR we can actually see what we will get. Having said that, I would still love to see outside the frame lines a la the DMR/Rx. Seeing outside the lines is a good thing as I see it whether for landscapes or portraiture.

    AF is, IMHO, not going to create a large differentiator for Leica. In fact it may have the opposite effect as now Leica will be in the glare of the N and C headlights. I would bet that 90+% of Leica shooters are O.K. with manual focus. What is most important is to have a DSLR that maximizes the strengths of the R glass. The DMR/R9 for me was a very good product. Having full frame and more resolution in a body that has all of the required features in a more integrated way is the key to success. I have sold some of my R glass but the primes are staying in my bag, now and forever! Where nothing can be compromised is in the area of image quality. What the new machine must embrace is an improvement over the already world class IQ of the DMR and M8. If you do this, there are a lot of pros out there who will embrace this body for their every day (paying) work!

    What about high ISO performance? Not a big issue for me personally because I am basically a landscape shooter for fine art prints. Some folks may disagree and I will understand their preference. I kind of look at MF and the digital backs that are on the market for them. ISO 400 performance is a key and 640 or higher is a big plus. But not the 3200 or 6400 that the newest Canon and Nikon deliver. The R10 will not compete for the sports shooters for sure. Hopefully the R10 will be a good performer but will not deliver the very best as the N and C deliver.

    This is probably a bit of a ramble and I am sorry if that is the case. I do believe that the R10 can be a big winner but Leica must position it in the best way for its strengths to be realized.

    Woody Spedden

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post

    AF is, IMHO, not going to create a large differentiator for Leica. In fact it may have the opposite effect as now Leica will be in the glare of the N and C headlights. I would bet that 90+% of Leica shooters are O.K.
    Woody Spedden
    Woody:

    What I fear with AF is that we will have to live through the mutitude of posts saying "My R10 doesn't AF correctly, back focuses, front focuses."

    There is a reason why Leica stayed away from AF in the past.

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    Senior Member atanabe's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    My wish list:
    1) Accept all old R lenses with or without ROM
    2) 1.3 crop minimum 1:1 would be great!
    3) Price point at $6000 range

    Response from source at Leica "You will be VERY HAPPY"
    Same source as the new Summarits in June.

    Stocking up on R lenses again
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Al, I believe I bought the 180/2.8 from you through eBay. June of 2006. I am VERY HAPPY with it, just love it.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    A full frame sensor would be great so that the wides are wide..in 35mm land I dont care about the megapixels - if the R10 can give me M8 or DMR quality files in a FF sensor I am happy. The R9/DMR is a nice package - well balanced and a great metering system ( something most people don't mention)...I have started collecting my R lenses ( thanks Woody ) looking forward to trying out the legendary 35-70 2.8 AND the 70-180..

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Al, I believe I bought the 180/2.8 from you through eBay. June of 2006. I am VERY HAPPY with it, just love it.
    I regret selling my R lenses 19, 100, 180, 280. Glad some have found good homes!
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    A full frame sensor would be great so that the wides are wide..in 35mm land I dont care about the megapixels - if the R10 can give me M8 or DMR quality files in a FF sensor I am happy. The R9/DMR is a nice package - well balanced and a great metering system ( something most people don't mention)...I have started collecting my R lenses ( thanks Woody ) looking forward to trying out the legendary 35-70 2.8 AND the 70-180..
    Peter:

    Did you get your new lenses yet? I bet you will be impressed with the 35-70mm.

    Robert

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Okay Peter, when you get tired of that R35-70/2.8 put me at the top of the list for first dibs ; -)

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Rob/Marc - I am waiting for Woody to get back from vacation so he can ship me the 'stuff' - Marc I will keep you in mind! LOL

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    In case you all haven't seen this info:

    http://www.freelists.org/archives/le.../msg00146.html

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Thanks for the link BJNY - very interesting.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Okay Peter, when you get tired of that R35-70/2.8 put me at the top of the list for first dibs ; -)
    Marc

    I have another one if you are really interested!

    Woody

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    A full frame R10 allowing manual focus for older lenses and focus confirmation ( if they go for an auto focus system) will be a dream camera for Leica-philes.

    What is obvious though ( at the moment) is that the company can't keep up with demand for its lenses or repairs...a sad aftermath of a couple of large head count reductions.

    On a brighter note - R lens availability is pretty good at the moment - although teh first early signs of increasing demand is already emerging.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    maybe even 30 x 40 or some dimension like that. Kodak CCD sensor and i am thinking at least 18 mpx,
    If they use the same 6.8 micron Kodak CCD, only at 30x40, then that's 26MP.

    I wouldn't mind if they dropped it to 5.5 micron though, and called it a day at 40MP, 30x40.

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    couple of points

    I wonder if the reason that Canon has opted for an even stronger AA filter is due to unacceptable moire from a 24x36 sensor with such close pixel spacing? If so then Leica must be careful because I think we all would prefer little to no AA rather than more mpx?

    Robert I too am afraid of negative reactions from the inclusion of AF as you point out. I understand why Leica would want to include it though since it will certainly result in quite a large number of new lens sales IMO. Remember that Dr Kaufmann talked about 24 new lenses being developed and only the four Summarits have showed up so far. I believe that means many of the remaining will be AF R lenses.

    I wonder why Leica (and others) don't follow Nikon in using a set of concentric knobs on the top of the camera to control ISO,WB,Image Quality, and then all of the shooting modes eg Clow,Chigh,Single,Live View and Mirror up. The Nikon knobs are relatively small on a Full size body and provide most all of the often changed items without resorting to menus. I love this implementation as do most other Nikon shooters I talk to. I would hope that with all of the complaining about the lack of such features on the M8 that Leica would solve all of these on the R10.

    As a landscape shooter I find that I like the live view mode now. (When I first bought the D300 I felt that without a swiveling LCD screen it had limited usefulness). Where it is great is as a focusing aid. While in live view mode you can magnify the image just as you would in normal playback to see if you hit the focus. You can then manually focus at the high degree of magnification and believe me you can really nail the shots. I hope Leica will see fit to include this feature as most of us will still be using our manual focus R glass for a long time to come.

    Woody

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Woody:

    Doesn't the DMR have knobs and switches to do all the things you suggested?

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    Re: Let's talk R-10

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Woody:

    Doesn't the DMR have knobs and switches to do all the things you suggested?
    It does Rob for sure. Part of that was due to the original design of the R9 for features such as mirror up and exposure compensation and the DMR did the rest. What I love about the Nikon approach is that all of these features exist on two easily moved concentric knobs on the left top of the camera. When it comes to ergonomics I think Nikon wins hands down. Canon is now up to the 1DsMkIII and you still have to go through multiple levels of menus to get the bloody mirror up!

    Woody

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