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Mr. Lee is gone from Leica
- Thread starter Terry
- Start date
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
LJ Sounds like we had similar work experience. I was a partner in a consulting firm and I saw plenty of palace revolts. If my sponsorship came from the departing executive ..well things would not have been good for me. Mr Lee was clearly brought in because the ownership thought change was required and that the CEO had to have a strategy background. Things obviously have not been going well(in the opinion of Dr Kaufmann and maybe Mr Lee). So a change was required. Lots of reasons for these things but generally not a good sign. Leica has probably never had a more important year. Everyone certainly hopes for the best and that Dr Kaufmann finds a great replacement quickly. Roger
a few thoughts:
so if Lee got on the board in Aug. '06 and the M8 was in reviewer's hands in summer, '07, how much influence/contrtibution could he have had on the wonky stuff? Certainly he was in the chair for the spin that followed, of course.
leica has several other models...do we know how much of Lee's oversight spread to other models besides the M8?
what portion of gross sales is due to the M8? maybe his problems had to do with the other product line shortcomings/sales
jm
so if Lee got on the board in Aug. '06 and the M8 was in reviewer's hands in summer, '07, how much influence/contrtibution could he have had on the wonky stuff? Certainly he was in the chair for the spin that followed, of course.
leica has several other models...do we know how much of Lee's oversight spread to other models besides the M8?
what portion of gross sales is due to the M8? maybe his problems had to do with the other product line shortcomings/sales
jm
scott kirkpatrick
Well-known member
John,
Lee had little or nothing to do with the M8. He was brought on in August '06 and the M8 was released in early November '06, not Summer '07.
Your points about other things being in the mix are well taken. As I mentioned earlier on, we will probably never know the entire backstory with respect to his precipitous departure, unless he decides to do a tell-all interview (barring any gag order that may be placed on whatever severance package he may be taking out).
All of this does not bode well for Leica at this point. They really need to get their act together quickly and solidly. They have great product and brand, but their service and forward planning seems horrific at best. Trying to milk the M8 for as much cash as possible with various programs and options might work, had the M8 been a stellar performer out of the gate. It was not, and the programs to "fix" things have been slow and costly, not helping Leica, nor boosting much confidence for customers, who have been nearly blindly loyal to a fault at times.
I keep thinking that there must have been some seriously egregious activities of some sort that would have generated such an abrupt departure, and dealer whining or complaints do not seem enough, as there are not that many dealers to even rep the brand anymore, and most have had no stock, losing out to large retailers instead. Customer complaints may have been high, but again, Lee inherited the problems in all lines. His inability to get things right given the culture, etc., were known challenges going in on both sides, so something else had to happen to send such a major shock into the company.
LJ
Lee had little or nothing to do with the M8. He was brought on in August '06 and the M8 was released in early November '06, not Summer '07.
Your points about other things being in the mix are well taken. As I mentioned earlier on, we will probably never know the entire backstory with respect to his precipitous departure, unless he decides to do a tell-all interview (barring any gag order that may be placed on whatever severance package he may be taking out).
All of this does not bode well for Leica at this point. They really need to get their act together quickly and solidly. They have great product and brand, but their service and forward planning seems horrific at best. Trying to milk the M8 for as much cash as possible with various programs and options might work, had the M8 been a stellar performer out of the gate. It was not, and the programs to "fix" things have been slow and costly, not helping Leica, nor boosting much confidence for customers, who have been nearly blindly loyal to a fault at times.
I keep thinking that there must have been some seriously egregious activities of some sort that would have generated such an abrupt departure, and dealer whining or complaints do not seem enough, as there are not that many dealers to even rep the brand anymore, and most have had no stock, losing out to large retailers instead. Customer complaints may have been high, but again, Lee inherited the problems in all lines. His inability to get things right given the culture, etc., were known challenges going in on both sides, so something else had to happen to send such a major shock into the company.
LJ
man, i missed by a year!
so when M Reichman was asked to not report on his perceived magenta problems, Lee was not around.
the camera was released to the public just a few months after Lee joined (only one month later to photokina)...sounds like that ship was already set to sail before he had any influence
then the apology letter, filter offer, 30% discount were his doing
finally, the upgrade announcement precedes his departure by only a few weeks. Maybe the negative/confused/emotional public response to that was his final straw?
so when M Reichman was asked to not report on his perceived magenta problems, Lee was not around.
the camera was released to the public just a few months after Lee joined (only one month later to photokina)...sounds like that ship was already set to sail before he had any influence
then the apology letter, filter offer, 30% discount were his doing
finally, the upgrade announcement precedes his departure by only a few weeks. Maybe the negative/confused/emotional public response to that was his final straw?
johnastovall
Deceased, but remembered fondly here...
Stephen Lee Did not join Leica until Oct. 2006. The M8 first show at Photokina 2006 in Sept. He was made CEO in Nov. 2006
Mr. Lee's first position on the Leica board was not as CEO but as corporate strategy and marketing.
He had nothing to do with the development of the M8 and it's problems.
PeterA
Well-known member
I followed the link to the L -Forum and was surprised to see that the first cab off the rank regarding the change in management was a moderator of teh forum saying that that spells the end of the R10.
One thing that has always amused me is how critical Leica users are of Leica. It is a small niche player always playing aginst much bigger companies with biger marketing budgets and resources, struggling to survive.
The DMR brought the company into the digital age -it wasnt Leica's fault that Imacon stopped making digital backs for Leica. It was Leica's fault that they listened to silly Leica users and made a hybrid camera compromising on full frame which could have been delivered and blown the opposition away at that time as a full frame camera - in order to satisfy silly notions of preserving the R8/9 bodies for film and digital use.
The M8 was a technical tour de force regarding digital quality from a rangefinder whilst maintaining the look and feel of the traditional M. Again a full frame version will be much better - eliminating the compromise inherent in using wide angle lenses with a cropped chip.
So the future direction for Leica is pretty clear and already mapped out - deliver the R10 and then move on to a full frame M. Charge a premium and deliver on quality - which means service as well as cute packaging.
I didnt have the negative reaction to the idea of marketing Leica in a user context - I did have a problem with the sloppy execution of the 'idea' and the unfortunate choice in characters and poses adopted - not to mention the storyline. Given a different story board and more respect paid to real photographers - the marketing idea coudl have been and will probably be quite an innovation.
Anyway it seems that the company has growth problems not being able to cope with demand for its products and stumbling on quality control as a consequence - this is a major issue for them.
One thing that has always amused me is how critical Leica users are of Leica. It is a small niche player always playing aginst much bigger companies with biger marketing budgets and resources, struggling to survive.
The DMR brought the company into the digital age -it wasnt Leica's fault that Imacon stopped making digital backs for Leica. It was Leica's fault that they listened to silly Leica users and made a hybrid camera compromising on full frame which could have been delivered and blown the opposition away at that time as a full frame camera - in order to satisfy silly notions of preserving the R8/9 bodies for film and digital use.
The M8 was a technical tour de force regarding digital quality from a rangefinder whilst maintaining the look and feel of the traditional M. Again a full frame version will be much better - eliminating the compromise inherent in using wide angle lenses with a cropped chip.
So the future direction for Leica is pretty clear and already mapped out - deliver the R10 and then move on to a full frame M. Charge a premium and deliver on quality - which means service as well as cute packaging.
I didnt have the negative reaction to the idea of marketing Leica in a user context - I did have a problem with the sloppy execution of the 'idea' and the unfortunate choice in characters and poses adopted - not to mention the storyline. Given a different story board and more respect paid to real photographers - the marketing idea coudl have been and will probably be quite an innovation.
Anyway it seems that the company has growth problems not being able to cope with demand for its products and stumbling on quality control as a consequence - this is a major issue for them.
Hank Graber
New member
I don't envy the new CEO. Leica still has a really difficult fundamental problem going forward. How do you recover development costs in the digital age on a niche product that sells maybe 10 - 25,000 units without charging absurd prices. Now if that is not already a daunting enough task add the proviso that the company is committed to their German employees in high cost Euroland with the Euro making new highs against every other currency.
Who ever the new guy is. I wish him luck. He' going to need it.
Who ever the new guy is. I wish him luck. He' going to need it.
woodyspedden
New member
My experience with these kinds of conflicts would suggest that Mr lee and Mr Kauffman had a very different opinion on the direction of Leica into the future. Mr Kauffman is a Leica traditionalist and Mr Lee is not above using other channels e.g. Panasonic in even greater extent to assure they have profits to fund the tradition. We will see how this all plays out vis a vis products, branding etc but I suspect they had a knock down drag out fight over direction and Kauffman showed Lee the door
Woody Spedden
Woody Spedden
Daniel
New member
being a CEO is a tough responsibility. there's a lot on your head and and shoulders all hours. make a miscalculated move and you could take down a company - employees, suppliers, shareholders, etc. it's a serious decision for the board to make, and i hope they're making the right move. but i'd like to believe that they are making the right move.
when the noise settles down - that is, the gossips and rumors are done and over with - i hope that the company will continue with both it's flim and digital products. as for me, i hope they'll continue the commitment to the M8 and up.
there are photographers who'd refuse to use or despise digital, but they'd probably appreciate digital if they're allergic to film chemicals. i Enjoy using range finder cameras because i find using them very engaging. when Leica produced the M8, i took it as a blessing. it's a unique camera. if mr kauffman steers Leica away from digital, then it'd be an unfortunate move. i think the M8 (even with some of it's quirks) is an ideal digital range finder camera. an indispensable tool for the artist.
i hope all the noise will soon settle down, and we'll soon hear nothing but encouraging news.
– dan
when the noise settles down - that is, the gossips and rumors are done and over with - i hope that the company will continue with both it's flim and digital products. as for me, i hope they'll continue the commitment to the M8 and up.
there are photographers who'd refuse to use or despise digital, but they'd probably appreciate digital if they're allergic to film chemicals. i Enjoy using range finder cameras because i find using them very engaging. when Leica produced the M8, i took it as a blessing. it's a unique camera. if mr kauffman steers Leica away from digital, then it'd be an unfortunate move. i think the M8 (even with some of it's quirks) is an ideal digital range finder camera. an indispensable tool for the artist.
i hope all the noise will soon settle down, and we'll soon hear nothing but encouraging news.
– dan
Last edited:
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Here folks . I knew this was a big mistake when Jack and I were at PMA and brought this up to Leica personal. Looks like it backfired on Mr. Lee
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...e_full_frame_M__editors_view_news_182228.html
Thanks Steve for the link. Pretty interesting
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...e_full_frame_M__editors_view_news_182228.html
Thanks Steve for the link. Pretty interesting
Terry
New member
I read this article last night. However, I thought about it differently. Nobody including AP knows how far along in the process they are or how much fine tuning needs to be done between now and September. I'm not defending Lee I just thought the article had a lot of speculation that couldn't be backed up. I don't really think that Lee had a choice but to speak about full frame if they were going to talk about an upgrade program.
With all that is being written and said my only hope is that Leica comes out with a communication that makes it clear what is going on with the M8, M8-2, M9 and even R. That would be the best service they could do to their customers. Leaving uncertainty in everyone's mind will hurt current sales, the upgrade process, and further annoy the installed base.
Daniel
New member
What Maggie said.
Terry,
I agree with your assessment also. Seems to me that the earlier statements about a FF sensor not being possible (back in 2006) may not have taken into account any new tech developments, so there still could be a way to do it.....it just was not known at that time. That either makes Mr. Lee's comments contradictory to earlier statements made when he was not even at Leica (plausible), or he was "sort of" making a promise about a tech development that may or may not have been achieved yet, while still asking his staff not to talk about such things. Seems like there are lots of moving parts in all of this, but the bottom line is still that Lee was dismissed. Leica may have a harder time finding a replacement for him, given the situation of his departure....who would risk stepping into a "family owned" business with mainly downside options?
Be that as it may, I am with you in hoping that Leica does get things sorted quickly, and does communicate things to folks and the market quickly and clearly. If that means retracting some "promises" or changing/delaying a program like the perpetual upgrade thing, so be it. Seems they could still offer the shutter options and stuff, but just not say the M8 will forever be upgradable in every way. Far as I know, you cannot put an M7 rangefinder on an M3....so what is the big deal if the M8 cannot get a FF sensor, but there is an M9 that has one? Maybe a 15MP 1.33x crop sensor with true 16-bit higher speed processing would be fine for the M8 at some point. I could live with something like that quite nicely. (That part is pure speculation, folks, and only offered as an example, so please do not start "running" with that as anything other than conjecture.)
I too would like to see more info about an R10, and whether Leica is going to seriously play in that realm again or not. As for the M8, if there is an M8.2, fine, or an M9 at some point, fine. None of that seems to be a real problem, and does reflect the reality that digital is not the same as film. Changes to hardware and electronics are much more frequent, and must accommodate the tech development cycle differently than the mechanical cycle Leica has been built upon. I really think most customers understand that part quite well already, as almost everything tech they own becomes "obsolete" with respect to new tech at some point. We may not like that, and the idea of forever being able to change out the guts seems nice, but has been shown to be impractical or prohibitively expensive, and thus better to buy the newer model/version. Leica may desire to be unique in this respect, and that is admirable, but it will be extremely costly for customers as well as Leica with respect to constant redesign and repair/replacement. Just does not seem sustainable at anything other than way above market costs on both sides. Just my opinions there.
LJ
I agree with your assessment also. Seems to me that the earlier statements about a FF sensor not being possible (back in 2006) may not have taken into account any new tech developments, so there still could be a way to do it.....it just was not known at that time. That either makes Mr. Lee's comments contradictory to earlier statements made when he was not even at Leica (plausible), or he was "sort of" making a promise about a tech development that may or may not have been achieved yet, while still asking his staff not to talk about such things. Seems like there are lots of moving parts in all of this, but the bottom line is still that Lee was dismissed. Leica may have a harder time finding a replacement for him, given the situation of his departure....who would risk stepping into a "family owned" business with mainly downside options?
Be that as it may, I am with you in hoping that Leica does get things sorted quickly, and does communicate things to folks and the market quickly and clearly. If that means retracting some "promises" or changing/delaying a program like the perpetual upgrade thing, so be it. Seems they could still offer the shutter options and stuff, but just not say the M8 will forever be upgradable in every way. Far as I know, you cannot put an M7 rangefinder on an M3....so what is the big deal if the M8 cannot get a FF sensor, but there is an M9 that has one? Maybe a 15MP 1.33x crop sensor with true 16-bit higher speed processing would be fine for the M8 at some point. I could live with something like that quite nicely. (That part is pure speculation, folks, and only offered as an example, so please do not start "running" with that as anything other than conjecture.)
I too would like to see more info about an R10, and whether Leica is going to seriously play in that realm again or not. As for the M8, if there is an M8.2, fine, or an M9 at some point, fine. None of that seems to be a real problem, and does reflect the reality that digital is not the same as film. Changes to hardware and electronics are much more frequent, and must accommodate the tech development cycle differently than the mechanical cycle Leica has been built upon. I really think most customers understand that part quite well already, as almost everything tech they own becomes "obsolete" with respect to new tech at some point. We may not like that, and the idea of forever being able to change out the guts seems nice, but has been shown to be impractical or prohibitively expensive, and thus better to buy the newer model/version. Leica may desire to be unique in this respect, and that is admirable, but it will be extremely costly for customers as well as Leica with respect to constant redesign and repair/replacement. Just does not seem sustainable at anything other than way above market costs on both sides. Just my opinions there.
LJ