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Thread: New statement by Leica on the M8

  1. #51
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Note however that the warranty extension is now one year wheras the original announcement was for two years. To me that significantly changes the value of the upgrade. A two year extension to me was very valuable.

    Woody
    sorry about my quick edits. i keep forgetting that the postings are very live.

    anyway, now i'm wondering if the upgrade adds an additional year to existing warranty. for example, i purchased my m8 in january 2008. if i upgrade my shutter, does this arrangement gives me an additional year to my existing warranty, or does the warranty resets to a one-year warranty. Or, my existing warranty remains, but the other one-year warranty applies only to the shutter.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Jack

    I have the D3 and follow the nikon forums at both Fred Miranda and Nikonians to get a sense of what others are saying and comparing that to my own experiences. Frankly the last thing I have been hearing is about color fidelity. In fact there are raves about getting the best skin color ever from a digital sensor. That mirrors my experiences exactly.
    Hi Woody
    I hope you're well - has that silver beauty gone?
    the reason I left Nikon was because of colour - D100 - D1x - D2x - D200, I never could get it right, and from what I see it hasn't changed . . . . .
    Not skin tones - they're great, but greens - I never could get them right, generally they were too yellow, but it wasn't as simple as that, I tried and tried and tried.
    On the other hand the Olympus E1 (and now the E3) seem to nail those greens every time, subtle and lovely compared to the Nikon's crass yellow tinge (especially in early morning and late evening light).
    The M8 is good, but it struggles with pillar box reds (try shooting some sweet peppers in direct sunlight) - pinkness is always a danger - the difference is that it's fixable.
    But those Olympus colours - I love 'em!

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    One of the things I love most about my M8 are the wonderful colors I get out of it.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Woody
    I hope you're well - has that silver beauty gone?
    the reason I left Nikon was because of colour - D100 - D1x - D2x - D200, I never could get it right, and from what I see it hasn't changed . . . . .
    Not skin tones - they're great, but greens - I never could get them right, generally they were too yellow, but it wasn't as simple as that, I tried and tried and tried.
    On the other hand the Olympus E1 (and now the E3) seem to nail those greens every time, subtle and lovely compared to the Nikon's crass yellow tinge (especially in early morning and late evening light).
    The M8 is good, but it struggles with pillar box reds (try shooting some sweet peppers in direct sunlight) - pinkness is always a danger - the difference is that it's fixable.
    But those Olympus colours - I love 'em!
    Hey Jono

    I am very well and leaving Florida tomorrow for the journey back to Fort Collins Colorado. The six weeks here was very invigorating.

    Yes I still have the silver chrome 24 and no plans to sell at this time. It is a wonderful lens and i vacillate between it and the 28 Cron as my favorites. I also just got my CV 35 1.4 and have not had a chance to do real testing with it yet but first results are very good. I look forward to comparing it with my silver 35 Lux (which thankfully has no discernable focus issues).

    I agree that no system has perfect color. Each one takes work if accurate color is the benchmark. However if pleasing color is the goal I love the M8 and, particularly for skin colors, find the D3 to be wonderful. By the way doing the raw conversion in Capture NX is far and away the best option for the D3 albeit dealing with a very slow process. I expect to continue to use both systems hopefully always optimizing the tools for the task at hand.

    Woody

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well I dont care about high ISO and I don't want in camera smoothing ala CaNikon, and I care about quality files so I have an M8 and now again a DMR. The quality of the files is what makes me so interested in a full frame version of the M8 and the R - and the full frame version means my lenses work like they are supposed and designed to work.

    I do care about paying for Leica quality and not getting it. The simple fact of the matter is that they are destroying their franchise by delivering gear that is not up to spec. This issue is compounded by poor service. There is a brain snap going on in there regarding how much they think they can push people's loyalty.

    Why should I have to send my lenses into Leica so that they can get 'coded' so that some software can recognize the lens I am using in an M camera? Why cant they just supply me with a plug in module for C1 or Adobe and let me tell the module what adjustment to make to the raw file in post shot production? They are basing a lot of their decisions on bespoke service culture - and not delivering a bespoke service.

    if you guys think this is harsh - so be it. But I have been a long time user and supporter of Leica - because things used to work very well - out of the box. Now we get to the cheaper line of lenses announced - which aren't really much cheaper, and upgrade policies at ridiculous prices involving shipment back to Leica - in order to fix a sticky shutter release, noisy shutter and scratchy LCD - what rubbish!

    At the same time we have pictures of square jawed models posing with Leica cameras in some kind of Teutonic castle setting not even knowing how to hold the gear properly as a marketing break through - the common denominator is well meaning strategy - poorly executed.

    In a small company, lacking resources...it is a dangerous way to play. Instead of focusing on what IS going to work - we have Leica making in one way or another two different classes of lenses, numerous branded cameras and lenses,in numerous formats and moving to a fast twitch business model. They cant do this properly ( as if anyone can) - what they have ended up with now - is a lot of inventory that people aren't buying, and the stuff peopel want to buy or get serviced isnt there! ..anyone in business knows that focusing on fewer product lines and get them right is what makes money. The consultants will be in there in due course telling them same.

    Looking forward what they can do right, is get world class products out - and that means - full frame bodies that work with existing and future best of breed lens designs. That has always been their market - and that should be their market. regarding announcements - making announcements via gossip and innuendo is really bad business.

    /rant

    Peter

    Agreed with all you have said.

    I would like to add that having been a CEO of two high technology companies in the Semiconductor industry I can tell you that allowing engineering to dictate the business model of the company is suicidal! Of course the engineers have to develop the products but if left alone never actually finish any design. They always have a new design or upgrade on the blackboard which is better than the design they submitted to at the outset. Consequently you get creeping elegance, higher costs and drastically increased time to market which kills the business model. Engineering, like any other discipline, must be held to their commitments and get a product that meets the original criteria to the market on time or earlier. Market windows are short and fickle . So I hope the new team doesn't allow the tail to wag the dog and that the engineering team at Leica get a product portfolio put together quickly which keeps Leica in a financially stable position. If I were CEO (and thank God that I am not) I would:

    1. Assure a service organization that can provide the service we need at reasonable costs

    a. Lens Coding
    b. Lens and body focus issues
    c. Rangefinder adjustments
    d. Actually fix what the customer required in the first place
    e. More local service so everything doesn't end up in Solms

    2. Get a FF or better R10 on the market by Photokina 2008

    3. Continue to develop relevent lenses for the M system, notably a fast wide, and a new 75 Lux incorporating the latest technologies. The Summarit series is nice but both CV and Zeiss have equivalent offerings at even better prices. Concentrate on the great primes which is where the Leica optical technology is superior to all

    4. Fix the current issues with the M

    a. Support for high capacity SDHC cards
    b. Elimation of the battery issues (Internal and normal)
    c. Menu support for other lenses with no implication of support from Leica
    for the performance of others!
    d. No changes to the basic mechanics of the M8. This would be very
    expensive and require perhaps large modifications in Solms.
    d. etc etc. You all know the drill by now


    I guess my bottom line is that until the community which bought the M8 gets the M8 they deserve, Leica's credibility willl remain suspect. And until the company brings out an R which is in the modern era the product portfolio is too small to be taken seriously and the company will suffer as a result.

    I truly want leica to win. I love the products with all of their flaws and will buy an R10 when it comes out. But I love my M's and want them brought up to speed. Forget for a moment about FF and M9........just fix the M8

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by thegrumpymonk View Post
    sorry about my quick edits. i keep forgetting that the postings are very live.

    anyway, now i'm wondering if the upgrade adds an additional year to existing warranty. for example, i purchased my m8 in january 2008. if i upgrade my shutter, does this arrangement gives me an additional year to my existing warranty, or does the warranty resets to a one-year warranty. Or, my existing warranty remains, but the other one-year warranty applies only to the shutter.
    Ahh nuts,

    That's a very good question and one worth finding out before sending in an M8 for an upgrade (or purchasing one!).

  7. #57
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    Ahh nuts,

    That's a very good question and one worth finding out before sending in an M8 for an upgrade (or purchasing one!).
    i was reviewing the wording in the link provided, and i noticed i missed this on the first paragraph:

    The camera's warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade.

    can we safely assume that extended by another year means just that? yes/no? how else could Leica mean by extended? am i splitting hair? like asking what is, manual?

  8. #58
    sirvine
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I think that means 1 year from the time of the upgrade, regardless of whether that year overlaps with the original warranty.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by sirvine View Post
    I think that means 1 year from the time of the upgrade, regardless of whether that year overlaps with the original warranty.
    I just got an email about all this, and they definitely used the word 'extended'

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by sirvine View Post
    I think that means 1 year from the time of the upgrade, regardless of whether that year overlaps with the original warranty.
    Sounds like it to me .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Only "native born" Americans can be President. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Can he be President?

    Until the Supreme Court (or Leica) decides, we can't be sure what "extended" means. Especially since the message was probably written in German first and then translated into English. Maybe someone who cares enough should ask Leica.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Only "native born" Americans can be President. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Can he be President?

    Until the Supreme Court (or Leica) decides, we can't be sure what "extended" means. Especially since the message was probably written in German first and then translated into English. Maybe someone who cares enough should ask Leica.

    I certainly thought I knew what 'extended' meant, and :
    "The cameraís warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade"
    would seem to me to mean that the extra year was 'another year' which started after the current warranty expired (of course, I could be wrong!).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Only "native born" Americans can be President. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Can he be President?
    Actually, that's not quite accurate. Only "Natural born US Citizens" can become president, and there is an important difference: Per the US constitution as "extended" in 1790: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

    So McCain is safe

    Cheers,
    Jack
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  14. #64
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    If Leica doesn't run translations of public releases past an English-speaking lawyer, they are truly incompetent.

    "The cameraís warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade."

    They should have said "another year following the date of the upgrade's completion", in my opinion.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Actually, that's not quite accurate. Only "Natural born US Citizens" can become president, and there is an important difference: Per the US constitution as "extended" in 1790: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

    So McCain is safe

    Cheers,

    That reminds me of a friend I have that dares not go to Cuba. His father was a Canadian diplomat stationed in Cuba during the late 1950's. My firend was born in Cuba and there is the chance if he ever sets foot there he will be put into the obligatory military service every male born in Cuba is required to do.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Err,
    I think that means to add to the end of the existing warranty
    see
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extend
    -bob

  17. #67
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Well, it would be an extension unless you have more than one year left on your original warranty. Hence the ambiguity.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I don't see it as ambiguous at all.
    Extending the warranty by a year lengthens it by a year no matter where it stands at the point of extension; that if they mean what it says.
    The interesting point to me is if the camera were already out of warranty by a year, then it would be extended and used up at the same time.
    -bob

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Well, I agree that this wording is a bit more ambiguous than the wording of the original proposed program. On THAT program, it stated that there would be a 2 year warranty from date of upgrade completion. So if a camera were out of warranty, you got two years, just like a new camera. If your camera was still within the warranty window, you still only got two years beyond the upgrade completion, NOT beyond the original warranty.

    This revised program merely says it is an "extension". I would read that to mean the warranty would cover things for one year from the completion date of the work. If your camera was out of warranty at that point, you get a new one year. If it was still within warranty, those warranties would run concurrently.

    That is how I would interpret this, but after past communications and miscommunications, it still is not all that clear. I agree, Leica needs to have a competent German/English speaking lawyer understand and word this correctly.

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    So, wait until the original warranty is about to run out, get a shutter installed, and then, a year later, have new glass installed, and then, a year later, have a FF sensor installed, and then, a year later...buy an M9.

    There, a six year plan! Take that, Stalin!!!! SIX! HA!

  21. #71
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    So, wait until the original warranty is about to run out, get a shutter installed, and then, a year later, have new glass installed, and then, a year later, have a FF sensor installed, and then, a year later...buy an M9.

    There, a six year plan! Take that, Stalin!!!! SIX! HA!
    woo-hoo!!!

    (0150, yes i'm still awake!)

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Geez, that sounds like the best deal so far.
    How about a Leica Subscription?
    $2000 per year and they just keep you up to date and under continuous passport warranty.
    At least they could change the color of the "dot" every year or maybe put the last two digits of the year on it so that you can show it off to the rest of the Hermes crowd.
    -bob

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I don't see any ambiguity to this at all: extension means extension, which is 1 additional year to what you already have whether that is 0 or 2 years... And it makes sense as a change from the original 2 years new warranty, which was a new beginning at the time of the work, which penalized someone who had the work done to a new camera. Guy and I pointed this flaw out to them at PMA...

    Cheers,
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I don't see any ambiguity to this at all: extension means extension, which is 1 additional year to what you already have whether that is 0 or 2 years... And it makes sense as a change from the original 2 years new warranty, which was a new beginning at the time of the work, which penalized someone who had the work done to a new camera. Guy and I pointed this flaw out to them at PMA...

    Cheers,
    Certainly that's what I assumed - interesting that the mention of CLA has gone . . . . let's hope the CLA hasn't gone too!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Certainly that's what I assumed - interesting that the mention of CLA has gone . . . . let's hope the CLA hasn't gone too!
    the point is that while there is much "logic" behind the assumptions, no one really knows the truth.

    Come on Leica.........Clarify

    Woody Spedden

  26. #76
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I've just receive a reply from Leica for my request for warranty clarification:

    Dear Mr. Chow,

    The one year warranty will be added from the date of upgrade. So for example, if You bought your M8 in January 2007 and the upgrade will be done in October 2008 the warranty will be until October 2009.

    Makes sense to me.

    -dan

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Guy just got this, clear as can be from Stephan Daniels...

    "The camera's warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade.
    (This is the sentence we stated in the newsletter).

    This means: on top of the (still running) original warranty (2 years) we will grant one year additional warranty for all functions of the camera after the upgrade. The newer the camera, the longer the warranty.

    Before there was a two year warranty after the upgrade, but not taking into account the running warranty on the camera. Example: having bought an M8 yesterday would have resulted in no additional warranty. With the current scheme, customer will have 3 years in total.

    Please let me know if it is clear now.

    Mit freundlichen GrŁŖen / Kind regards

    Stefan Daniel"
    Jack
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  28. #78
    wilsonlaidlaw
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    If the CLA has gone, the sapphire glass will be the most expensive bit of glass since the Hubble Telescope (hope it works better). Unless they are going to replace the entire LCD and not just the cover glass/plastic, we all know that the current cover can be removed in less than 5 minutes work with a hair dryer. Yet again, Leica is doing a disservice to its clients by making ambiguous, contradictory and unclear statements - don't they ever learn?

    Wilson

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Thanks Jack for posting that for me . I have 5 minutes to get back to shooting but wanted folks to know that info from Solms which i sent a e-mail this morning on clarification of the warranty


    Morning Guy,



    The camera's warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade.

    (This is the sentence we stated in the newsletter).



    This means: on top of the (still running) original warranty (2 years) we will grant one year additional warranty for all functions of the camera after the upgrade. The newer the camera, the longer the warranty.



    Before there was a two year warranty after the upgrade, but not taking into account the running warranty on the camera. Example: having bought an M8 yesterday would have resulted in no additional warranty. With the current scheme, customer will have 3 years in total.



    Please let me know if it is clear now.







    Mit freundlichen GrŁŖen / Kind regards



    Stefan Daniel
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    That is very good news for me and other newer camera owners. Seemed sort of silly that someone who wanted an upgrade and was willing to pay for it but had a new camera would be at a disadvantage.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I like the sound of this too.
    Not having to pay until the work is done removes my resistance. I will sign up for the works.
    -bob

  32. #82
    sirvine
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    That is just a bizarre offer, but I guess it works. I'll stop trying to run their business for them now!

  33. #83
    Digital Dude
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    After reading the change to the upgrade program I’m left somewhat bewildered. I knew when I purchased my M8 in November; it was a different kind of camera and a different kind of company although if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn’t have chosen Leica. There are simply too many issues with the company that make me feel uncomfortable. Unlike other specialty companies such as Apple, Leica doesn't seem all that centric on any particular development plan. Sure, they’re a small company but I’m beginning to think they have no more than 100-employees. Now, I realize I’ll invoke some pretty nasty responses but that’s just the way I feel at this point. Still, I’ll likely opt for the current update since they have retracted from wanting our money up front, or at least that’s how I read their current communication.
    Regards,

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Dude View Post
    After reading the change to the upgrade program Iím left somewhat bewildered. I knew when I purchased my M8 in November; it was a different kind of camera and a different kind of company although if I knew then what I know now, I wouldnít have chosen Leica. There are simply too many issues with the company that make me feel uncomfortable. Unlike other specialty companies such as Apple, Leica doesn't seem all that centric on any particular development plan. Sure, theyíre a small company but Iím beginning to think they have no more than 100-employees. Now, I realize Iíll invoke some pretty nasty responses but thatís just the way I feel at this point. Still, Iíll likely opt for the current update since they have retracted from wanting our money up front, or at least thatís how I read their current communication.
    Regards,
    Hi Daniel
    Remember - before the M8 18 months ago Leica had been in the doldrums for many years - you might like to compare them to Apple ten years ago.
    Now they do at least have something to sell, and people who want to buy.

    I think that this looks like a good deal for us all, and I think that the current concept of upgrading the M8 is excellent . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    The M8 is Leica's Bondi Blue iMac: far from perfect, but so much better than the doldrums that came before.

    Also, Leica has the most badass cameras on the entire planet! There. I said it.

  36. #86
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    The M8 is Leica's Bondi Blue iMac: far from perfect, but so much better than the doldrums that came before.
    LOL - I was searching for the words . . . you have a better memory than me - of course, I was only 10 then
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Also, Leica has the most badass cameras on the entire planet! There. I said it.
    Absolutely

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    LOL - I was searching for the words . . . you have a better memory than me - of course, I was only 10 then

    Absolutely
    I hear ya but unfortunately I purchased one of the very first Macís (sub-1000) and these daysí Iím proud to be a pioneer. Who knows, maybe Iíll live long enough to be considered a sophomore in Leica.
    Regards,

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