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New statement by Leica on the M8

S

sirvine

Guest
The new Leica Camera website is a textbook case study in how to annoy web users: requires a plug-in to load, automatically plays music, obfuscates the important information behind long, annoying advertisements, and (sin of all sins) pop-up windows. The whole thing is totally out of step with Leica's reputation for capable engineering.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
SNIP

/rant
Peter:

I totally agree with ALL of these issues! My point was that for me, I'd rather have the digital M I have, complete with all its warts, than no digital M at all...

Agree that their current brand of service is abhorrent, agree that the new website is a joke AND an insult to me as a customer and even agree with your statement on lens coding!

The bigger problem as I see it, is that Leica is and remains a German company -- complete with traditional German arrogance toward their market... Unfortunately this is what's hurting them in the current GLOBAL economic world and unless they change their ways, they will die. (And by the time that happens, I just hope I can afford a Leaf back and Rollei Hy6 outfit :D)

Cheers,
 
H

Huwge

Guest
Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is €1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

Huw
 

Daniel

New member
Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is €1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

Huw
sounds good to me, but e-mail from whom, leica?
 

LJL

New member
Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is €1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

Huw
This looks interesting, and the multiple options may be the result of folks requesting that....hard to tell. It does look like you transposed the prices on the glass (should be 750) and the shutter (should be 800), based on the German site for which you provided the link. No big deal, and glad to see this as possible adjustments to the program. Timeframe still seems too long, but we will have to see how that plays out.

LJ
 

Daniel

New member
http://de.leica-camera.com/service/service_and_repair/m8upgrade/?mid=334

There you go, only in German but soon to be in English

Huw
thanks!

just found the english version:
http://en.leica-camera.com/service/service_and_repair/m8upgrade/?mid=334

New order process - As of August 2008
New is that you can commission the upgrades either through your Leica dealer or directly through the Leica Customer Service as of August 2008. Important: Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary nor the acquisition of certificates - the order will be handled just like any other service commission. The payment will only be due before your camera is sent back to you.

Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers:
As planned, fitting the sapphire glass cover and the shutter will presumably commence as of August 2008 in Germany, and it will also be possible (this is new) in all other authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers in the USA, Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea. Please observe that sending the camera to a Service Center is carried out at your own expense. Within the EU, you may call upon our Quick or Express Service for the upgrades.

The three upgrade-options now available will cost:

- ex 1120,- EUR for both the shutter and the sapphire glass cover
- ex 750,- EUR for the sapphire glass cover only
- ex 800,- EUR for the shutter only



There is no need to reserve a "certificate" from Leica for this upgrade.
You can make upgrade arrangements through a Leica dealer or directly with Leica.
The Quick or Express Service is available within the EU.
Payment due only when upgraded camera is ready to be returned.
 
Last edited:
H

Huwge

Guest
This looks interesting, and the multiple options may be the result of folks requesting that....hard to tell. It does look like you transposed the prices on the glass (should be 750) and the shutter (should be 800), based on the German site for which you provided the link
LJ
my bad, sorry
 

woodyspedden

New member
Just so folks understand the technical tradeoff of higher ISO and lower noise: To get there, Canon and Nikon end up essentially "smearing" the color channels and re-assembling the smear during de-bayering. Bottom line it's why folks are complaining now about the Nikon D3's color not being up to snuff with the "old" Nikon standard, and it's why Canon has been sub-par for the past several cameras...

Me? I'll take superior color over higher iSO performance 8 days a week. If I need higher ISO, I'd rather live with the noise than crappy color...
Jack

I have the D3 and follow the nikon forums at both Fred Miranda and Nikonians to get a sense of what others are saying and comparing that to my own experiences. Frankly the last thing I have been hearing is about color fidelity. In fact there are raves about getting the best skin color ever from a digital sensor. That mirrors my experiences exactly.

Now understand, I am not comparing the D3 to the M8. As you know I have two bodies and virtually all of the great primes and intend to keep them as they work well for me. I would love to get better noise performance and certainly FF is one way to get there if you keep the total pixel count in the 12-14 Mpx range to take advantage of the larger pixel dimensions. And given the M8's sensational image quality at 10Mpx. 12 to 14 would certainly be enough for me to print my 22x30 images at even better quality than I get now.

But for macro, long telephoto and low light shooting i will take the D3 without hesitation.l JMBO and YMMV

Woody
 

woodyspedden

New member
thanks!

just found the english version:
http://en.leica-camera.com/service/service_and_repair/m8upgrade/?mid=334

New order process - As of August 2008
New is that you can commission the upgrades either through your Leica dealer or directly through the Leica Customer Service as of August 2008. Important: Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary nor the acquisition of certificates - the order will be handled just like any other service commission. The payment will only be due before your camera is sent back to you.

Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers:
As planned, fitting the sapphire glass cover and the shutter will presumably commence as of August 2008 in Germany, and it will also be possible (this is new) in all other authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers in the USA, Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea. Please observe that sending the camera to a Service Center is carried out at your own expense. Within the EU, you may call upon our Quick or Express Service for the upgrades.

The three upgrade-options now available will cost:

- ex 1120,- EUR for both the shutter and the sapphire glass cover
- ex 750,- EUR for the sapphire glass cover only
- ex 800,- EUR for the shutter only



There is no need to reserve a "certificate" from Leica for this upgrade.
You can make upgrade arrangements through a Leica dealer or directly with Leica.
The Quick or Express Service is available within the EU.
Payment due only before upgraded camera is returned.

I'm assuming that "Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary" means no extra warranty? Any clarification?
Note however that the warranty extension is now one year wheras the original announcement was for two years. To me that significantly changes the value of the upgrade. A two year extension to me was very valuable.

Woody
 

Daniel

New member
Note however that the warranty extension is now one year wheras the original announcement was for two years. To me that significantly changes the value of the upgrade. A two year extension to me was very valuable.

Woody
sorry about my quick edits. i keep forgetting that the postings are very live.

anyway, now i'm wondering if the upgrade adds an additional year to existing warranty. for example, i purchased my m8 in january 2008. if i upgrade my shutter, does this arrangement gives me an additional year to my existing warranty, or does the warranty resets to a one-year warranty. Or, my existing warranty remains, but the other one-year warranty applies only to the shutter.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jack

I have the D3 and follow the nikon forums at both Fred Miranda and Nikonians to get a sense of what others are saying and comparing that to my own experiences. Frankly the last thing I have been hearing is about color fidelity. In fact there are raves about getting the best skin color ever from a digital sensor. That mirrors my experiences exactly.
Hi Woody
I hope you're well - has that silver beauty gone?
the reason I left Nikon was because of colour - D100 - D1x - D2x - D200, I never could get it right, and from what I see it hasn't changed . . . . .
Not skin tones - they're great, but greens - I never could get them right, generally they were too yellow, but it wasn't as simple as that, I tried and tried and tried.
On the other hand the Olympus E1 (and now the E3) seem to nail those greens every time, subtle and lovely compared to the Nikon's crass yellow tinge (especially in early morning and late evening light).
The M8 is good, but it struggles with pillar box reds (try shooting some sweet peppers in direct sunlight) - pinkness is always a danger - the difference is that it's fixable.
But those Olympus colours - I love 'em!
 

woodyspedden

New member
Hi Woody
I hope you're well - has that silver beauty gone?
the reason I left Nikon was because of colour - D100 - D1x - D2x - D200, I never could get it right, and from what I see it hasn't changed . . . . .
Not skin tones - they're great, but greens - I never could get them right, generally they were too yellow, but it wasn't as simple as that, I tried and tried and tried.
On the other hand the Olympus E1 (and now the E3) seem to nail those greens every time, subtle and lovely compared to the Nikon's crass yellow tinge (especially in early morning and late evening light).
The M8 is good, but it struggles with pillar box reds (try shooting some sweet peppers in direct sunlight) - pinkness is always a danger - the difference is that it's fixable.
But those Olympus colours - I love 'em!
Hey Jono

I am very well and leaving Florida tomorrow for the journey back to Fort Collins Colorado. The six weeks here was very invigorating.

Yes I still have the silver chrome 24 and no plans to sell at this time. It is a wonderful lens and i vacillate between it and the 28 Cron as my favorites. I also just got my CV 35 1.4 and have not had a chance to do real testing with it yet but first results are very good. I look forward to comparing it with my silver 35 Lux (which thankfully has no discernable focus issues).

I agree that no system has perfect color. Each one takes work if accurate color is the benchmark. However if pleasing color is the goal I love the M8 and, particularly for skin colors, find the D3 to be wonderful. By the way doing the raw conversion in Capture NX is far and away the best option for the D3 albeit dealing with a very slow process. I expect to continue to use both systems hopefully always optimizing the tools for the task at hand.

Woody
 

woodyspedden

New member
Well I dont care about high ISO and I don't want in camera smoothing ala CaNikon, and I care about quality files so I have an M8 and now again a DMR. The quality of the files is what makes me so interested in a full frame version of the M8 and the R - and the full frame version means my lenses work like they are supposed and designed to work.

I do care about paying for Leica quality and not getting it. The simple fact of the matter is that they are destroying their franchise by delivering gear that is not up to spec. This issue is compounded by poor service. There is a brain snap going on in there regarding how much they think they can push people's loyalty.

Why should I have to send my lenses into Leica so that they can get 'coded' so that some software can recognize the lens I am using in an M camera? Why cant they just supply me with a plug in module for C1 or Adobe and let me tell the module what adjustment to make to the raw file in post shot production? They are basing a lot of their decisions on bespoke service culture - and not delivering a bespoke service.

if you guys think this is harsh - so be it. But I have been a long time user and supporter of Leica - because things used to work very well - out of the box. Now we get to the cheaper line of lenses announced - which aren't really much cheaper, and upgrade policies at ridiculous prices involving shipment back to Leica - in order to fix a sticky shutter release, noisy shutter and scratchy LCD - what rubbish!

At the same time we have pictures of square jawed models posing with Leica cameras in some kind of Teutonic castle setting not even knowing how to hold the gear properly as a marketing break through - the common denominator is well meaning strategy - poorly executed.

In a small company, lacking resources...it is a dangerous way to play. Instead of focusing on what IS going to work - we have Leica making in one way or another two different classes of lenses, numerous branded cameras and lenses,in numerous formats and moving to a fast twitch business model. They cant do this properly ( as if anyone can) - what they have ended up with now - is a lot of inventory that people aren't buying, and the stuff peopel want to buy or get serviced isnt there! ..anyone in business knows that focusing on fewer product lines and get them right is what makes money. The consultants will be in there in due course telling them same.

Looking forward what they can do right, is get world class products out - and that means - full frame bodies that work with existing and future best of breed lens designs. That has always been their market - and that should be their market. regarding announcements - making announcements via gossip and innuendo is really bad business.

/rant

Peter

Agreed with all you have said.

I would like to add that having been a CEO of two high technology companies in the Semiconductor industry I can tell you that allowing engineering to dictate the business model of the company is suicidal! Of course the engineers have to develop the products but if left alone never actually finish any design. They always have a new design or upgrade on the blackboard which is better than the design they submitted to at the outset. Consequently you get creeping elegance, higher costs and drastically increased time to market which kills the business model. Engineering, like any other discipline, must be held to their commitments and get a product that meets the original criteria to the market on time or earlier. Market windows are short and fickle . So I hope the new team doesn't allow the tail to wag the dog and that the engineering team at Leica get a product portfolio put together quickly which keeps Leica in a financially stable position. If I were CEO (and thank God that I am not) I would:

1. Assure a service organization that can provide the service we need at reasonable costs

a. Lens Coding
b. Lens and body focus issues
c. Rangefinder adjustments
d. Actually fix what the customer required in the first place
e. More local service so everything doesn't end up in Solms

2. Get a FF or better R10 on the market by Photokina 2008

3. Continue to develop relevent lenses for the M system, notably a fast wide, and a new 75 Lux incorporating the latest technologies. The Summarit series is nice but both CV and Zeiss have equivalent offerings at even better prices. Concentrate on the great primes which is where the Leica optical technology is superior to all

4. Fix the current issues with the M

a. Support for high capacity SDHC cards
b. Elimation of the battery issues (Internal and normal)
c. Menu support for other lenses with no implication of support from Leica
for the performance of others!
d. No changes to the basic mechanics of the M8. This would be very
expensive and require perhaps large modifications in Solms.
d. etc etc. You all know the drill by now


I guess my bottom line is that until the community which bought the M8 gets the M8 they deserve, Leica's credibility willl remain suspect. And until the company brings out an R which is in the modern era the product portfolio is too small to be taken seriously and the company will suffer as a result.

I truly want leica to win. I love the products with all of their flaws and will buy an R10 when it comes out. But I love my M's and want them brought up to speed. Forget for a moment about FF and M9........just fix the M8

JMHO

Woody
 

ChrisDauer

Workshop Member
sorry about my quick edits. i keep forgetting that the postings are very live.

anyway, now i'm wondering if the upgrade adds an additional year to existing warranty. for example, i purchased my m8 in january 2008. if i upgrade my shutter, does this arrangement gives me an additional year to my existing warranty, or does the warranty resets to a one-year warranty. Or, my existing warranty remains, but the other one-year warranty applies only to the shutter.
Ahh nuts,

That's a very good question and one worth finding out before sending in an M8 for an upgrade (or purchasing one!).
 

Daniel

New member
Ahh nuts,

That's a very good question and one worth finding out before sending in an M8 for an upgrade (or purchasing one!).
i was reviewing the wording in the link provided, and i noticed i missed this on the first paragraph:

The camera's warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade.

can we safely assume that extended by another year means just that? yes/no? how else could Leica mean by extended? am i splitting hair? like asking what is, manual? :)
 
S

sirvine

Guest
I think that means 1 year from the time of the upgrade, regardless of whether that year overlaps with the original warranty.
 
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