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Thread: New statement by Leica on the M8

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    New statement by Leica on the M8

    As Alice cried, “Curiouser and curiouser!”

    New statement by Leica on the M8


    "
    'Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the Leica product development team has begun to review the M system strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made. However, it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee. In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into 2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.

    It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame within the M system. However, the final decision regarding the appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.'

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Actually, that does not seem too far from the original pre-PMA discussions many reported. It seems to support the idea that a FF sensor is being considered....whether that be for the M8 or a later version M9 is still not being told, and also that it may be fit into the possible R10.

    This communication does suggest that the perpetual upgrade program for the M8 may be "soft pedaled" a bit, and that there may not be a true "roadmap" discussed with the public. So it is looking like Leica is working to "stabilize" speculation, keeping to its original statements about the M8 holding into 2009, and that options are being considered going forward. It does also say that Mr. Lee's statements at PMA, which some feel were either "out of school", premature, or possibly mis-stated by a pressured questioning and interpretation, are an issue they are trying to get in front of at this point. It does smack of some strategy shift or retraction, but without more clarification, my thought here are more opinion than anything else.

    Thanks for digging this out and posting. Nice to see that Leica is doing something other than hiding at this point.

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I'd bet Leica saw a potential cash flow crisis coming after the second quarter as M8 sales drop off in anticipation of a FF camera and realizing that there would not be enough upgrades sold to cover the slowdown in camera sales.

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    I'd bet Leica saw a potential cash flow crisis coming after the second quarter as M8 sales drop off in anticipation of a FF camera and realizing that there would not be enough upgrades sold to cover the slowdown in camera sales.
    I just wish they would sell me just a shutter upgrade. Don't need the saphire LCD with my Lugi case but I would like a quicter shutter.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I also hope they do the body revaluation with some RD-1s, Konica Hexars and and Autofocus Contax G's on the table for some inspiration from outside the Leica box.

    Send the designers out to shot for a couple of days with them.
    Last edited by johnastovall; 27th February 2008 at 10:13.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    I just wish they would sell me just a shutter upgrade. Don't need the saphire LCD with my Lugi case but I would like a quicter shutter.
    I was hoping for the same kind of "revision" to the upgrade plan. Offer the new shutter, CLA and extended warranty at an appropriately reduced cost. My bet is that they could make up a lot of volume upgrades if the price/offering was more reasonable. The problem for Leica is still going to be high QA and service turnaround on any of that work also. That is an area they really need to be addressing with both the general public, as well as all current clients. Their reputation is really taking a beating in that area, and not encouraging folks to jump into more gear, only to find that it has to go back for calibration, or whatever, and it will not be seen for many weeks. Not a nice thing.

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I was hoping for the same kind of "revision" to the upgrade plan. Offer the new shutter, CLA and extended warranty at an appropriately reduced cost. My bet is that they could make up a lot of volume upgrades if the price/offering was more reasonable. The problem for Leica is still going to be high QA and service turnaround on any of that work also. That is an area they really need to be addressing with both the general public, as well as all current clients. Their reputation is really taking a beating in that area, and not encouraging folks to jump into more gear, only to find that it has to go back for calibration, or whatever, and it will not be seen for many weeks. Not a nice thing.

    LJ
    The whole QA issue goes back to a thread I had in another forum about why Leica has never set up a Total Quality Management Program for just such issues and started down the path of an ISO9000 certification or at least Sigma Six.

    Maybe we should all send Leica management copies of Demings "The Fourteen Points of Management"

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Osborne computer failed due to premature disclosure.
    announcements AST serious business.
    -bob

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    sirvine
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Let's play armchair interim CEO!

    New upgrade package: (a) frame-line correction, (b) manual shutter winder or quieter automatic shutter, and/or (c) automatic sensor dust shaker.

    R10 should have full frame chip, acceptable high-ISO, and full backward compatibility.

    No other new products. All available funds go into developing first-in-class customer service and a steady stream of upgrade and firmware releases.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by sirvine View Post
    Let's play armchair interim CEO!

    New upgrade package: (a) frame-line correction, (b) manual shutter winder or quieter automatic shutter, and/or (c) automatic sensor dust shaker.

    R10 should have full frame chip, acceptable high-ISO, and full backward compatibility.

    No other new products. All available funds go into developing first-in-class customer service and a steady stream of upgrade and firmware releases.
    My biggest concern now is the future of R! When the announcement talks about only the M in the context of the flagship system, and basically preannounces either a delay or a no-op regarding a full frame M body I wonder where leica is going! If they don't have a new M to talk about at Photokina and no R announcement as well, there will be hell to pay in the marketplace. This would truly be the start of the beginning of the end for leica. JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    This new statement, IMHO, just shows Leica has no business strategy or product plan. It appears that Lee tried to force a high margin FF and upgrade/service strategy and schedule down the throat of the engineers. The engineers revolted and won. Guess American business model and German culture just don't mix. The M9 and R10 will come when the engineers are good and ready (which may not be a bad thing) at their leisurely pace (which is a bad thing), but hopefully before they run out of money...

    Alan
    Last edited by apsheng; 27th February 2008 at 16:37.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Wether Leica wants to hear this or not I no longer care - if they dont come out with an R10 announcement this year - I am gonski from the brand. Life is too short to fret about companies who want to meander along as if there is no competition. fact of the matter is that there IS a LOT of competition for Leica.

    I am selling my M8 and M lenses the removal of the full frame M from the agenda is about them worrying about being left holding obsolete product ( M8's). The upgrade announcement scared me - the step back from that has scared me more. The whole company strategy has been too reliant on worrying about inventory on hand management - rather than getting the right inventory in. The service stories I am consistently hearing about the M8 and lens focus issues are scary. i have known for a while I cant get critical focus with any of my M lenses on my M8 - and have been shooting F5.6+ in order to mask this stupid situation ..I have had enough already!

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    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Osborne computer failed due to premature disclosure.
    announcements AST serious business.
    -bob
    Exactly!

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    [...] the removal of the full frame M from the agenda is about them worrying about being left holding obsolete product ( M8's). [...]
    Or, it could be about them not having anything viable in the pipeline, and not wanting to leave expectations wide open, needlessly, until they're further along being able to release a full frame solution.

    (I'm guessing it's a little of both, actually.)

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by NonFiction View Post
    Or, it could be about them not having anything viable in the pipeline, and not wanting to leave expectations wide open, needlessly, until they're further along being able to release a full frame solution.

    (I'm guessing it's a little of both, actually.)
    I think you may be right ..

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I really don't understand all the fuss about full frame futures except possibly in the improvement of high iso noise and maximum field of view.
    With lenses like the CV 12 available, most FOV challenges I have come across have been met. I would be more interested in a new lens at the wide end of the spectrum from Leica or perhaps new sensor technology perhaps based on non-traditional bayer technology. If FF were to happen, no apparent sharpness benefit would be achieved unless the sensor pitch were reduced. That means a much larger file size and longer write times.
    I bought my M8s at the time I did because of the files they produced and I thought that the price was fair considering all factors. My biggest beef is about execution, quality control, and service; not camera futures. A FF sensor I doubt will have any significant impact on prints 17 by 25 and under. If you shoot for digital media output, it will have no impact whatsoever.
    Now, nice high iso low noise performance would be nice, but there are a few ways of getting there and not all of them involve a larger sensor, although admittedly that does help as long as the resolution is not increased.
    CEOs should be restricted to only the vaguest of statements like "our engineers are working on cutting edge technologies in order to provide future products to meet our customers' needs. We are enhancing our manufacturing technologies and customer satisfaction delivery systems to provide the future responsiveness our customers deserve. Maintaining financial strength and high quality is the road to the future"
    Now, that is what I would have expected from any reasonable CEO.
    But now that the pot has been stirred, nothing but tincture of time will allow the turmoil to settle. They best say less than more until the point that they are able to deliver.
    -bob

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Seriously folks, how bad off are we really with the 1.3 sensor and lowly 11 megapixels of resolution? (I make pretty impressive 16x24 inch prints off the M8 11MP files, and have gone as large as 44x66 and the images still look very good!) How often will I ever need WIDER than my CV12 offers? It's an effective 16 on the M8 and frankly that's darn wide for most images. The M's sweet spot realm has ALWAYS been 28 through 50 with 21/24 and 75/90/135 on the "specialized" ends of the sweet spots. Back in the day, entire portfolios of phenomenal images were assembled by talented photographers with one or two lenses period; usually the 35 and 50, but sometimes a 28 or 90 tossed in the mix. And this range AND MORE is still very well represented with the current offerings...

    The M is and always has been about making images, at least for serious photographers, and IMO that hasn't changed. Perhaps it has been about a jewelry-like accessory for the not-so-serious photographers -- those that want to look the part but don't take the time to actually learn it -- and thus the tech advances of excellent AF and Auto-metering are perhaps better suited to this latter group. And beginners. And for any subject matter that requires a long lens. But this does not take away what the M is best at, and at some point a photographer turns more artist and wants to be in total control of his/her image making environment and a more basic camera becomes a superior creative tool... IMO this is why view cameras and the Leica M (and even film) have endured so well during the digital revolution.

    So let's quit our whining and get out there and use the tools we have. IF/WHEN something better comes along, GREAT! Until then, I'm "dancing with the one I brung."

    /rant

    PS EDIT: Bob posted immediately above while I was typing this and his response is obviously in synch with mine, sorry for the repetition.

    Great minds Bob!
    Jack
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I knew there was a reason you are my partner than just your good looks.

    I agree 110 percent and well said my friend even this guy agree's
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I knew there was a reason you are my partner than just your good looks.

    I agree 110 percent and well said my friend even this guy agree's
    But you did not shoot this with a FF digital Leica (Just kidding, as you well know )

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    LOL the only reason i want FF is more MPX and squeeze these lenses more than there being used today. I love my CV 12mm and all my wide angles so from that POF i am not hurting one bit in the wide area.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Not sure you can get better than this for a 600 dollar lens



    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Guy,
    I want lower noise and higher ISO.
    There is the rub, it is a technical tradeoff. Both at the same time is a (engineering term follows) bitch.
    -bob

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Well i more stop would be great , I agree.

    There is room for improvement, no question.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well i more stop would be great , I agree.

    There is room for improvement, no question.
    Right, but as Jack pointed out, and which I agree.....you do not NEED a FF sensor to accomplish that. The 1.33x crop at 10MP could be improved to stay at 10MP or bump up slightly, but provide better high ISO performance. Would a 12-14MP 1.33x crop sensor with true ISO 2500(3200) performance be a BAD thing? I think not. If Nikon and Canon and others are able to improve noise control, Leica should be able to do that too. We are talking about a sensor, electronics and software that is(will be) several years old soon, and tech has advanced quite a bit over that time.

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Just so folks understand the technical tradeoff of higher ISO and lower noise: To get there, Canon and Nikon end up essentially "smearing" the color channels and re-assembling the smear during de-bayering. Bottom line it's why folks are complaining now about the Nikon D3's color not being up to snuff with the "old" Nikon standard, and it's why Canon has been sub-par for the past several cameras...

    Me? I'll take superior color over higher iSO performance 8 days a week. If I need higher ISO, I'd rather live with the noise than crappy color...
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  26. #26
    sirvine
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    There is NO question in my mind after shooting a Canon 1DMKIII for the past week or so: that high ISO performance is nothing more than an in-camera Noise Ninja (or similar noise reduction filter). Why turn your camera into a crippled version of Photoshop? For me, better high ISO performance means better, more film-like grain at high ISO -- i.e., not banding and other video-like artifacts.

    And, yes, get rid of that damn green band problem. That's just embarrassing.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I am definitely not whining about full frame as I really don't care about it, I don't print anything huge and as Jack as shown you can get pretty darn large with what we've got.

    Agree, the high ISO performance would be great.

    The big "joke" is me potentially getting a second body and when all of the uncertainty of what comes next from Leica is all around us, it makes me pause and evaluate what the best next steps are (buy used and upgrade, buy a new body, wait for M9, etc.) To the extent that I am paused I am sure others are as well and that does not help Leica sell cameras and generate good cashflow for the needed R&D investments.

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I am definitely not whining about full frame as I really don't care about it, I don't print anything huge and as Jack as shown you can get pretty darn large with what we've got.

    Agree, the high ISO performance would be great.

    The big "joke" is me potentially getting a second body and when all of the uncertainty of what comes next from Leica is all around us, it makes me pause and evaluate what the best next steps are (buy used and upgrade, buy a new body, wait for M9, etc.) To the extent that I am paused I am sure others are as well and that does not help Leica sell cameras and generate good cashflow for the needed R&D investments.
    Terry,
    I agree with your comments about being "paused". That is the reaction many folks have after watching/reading about this entire Leica communication and mis-management. They have not helped their cause right now. If they can quickly get the house back in order, and to me, that means "fixing" the service department, getting QA/QC up, and keeping lenses in stock for folks to purchase, in addition to getting their act together about the M and R lines, they can weather this. I would like to see reasonable and practical upgrades/improvements for the M8. A new FF sensor is not as big a priority in my mind as making some other fixes first, and yes, cleaner high ISO performance (without color smearing that Jack talks about) is one of those things that would be welcomed.

    LJ

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Paused? I'm thinking about a third body just so I have redundant back-up for a few additional years
    Jack
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I see no reason to pause myself. But i understand if folks want to do that. The biggest issue is service. But there is improvement, i just can't talk about it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I love the M8, I was very excited by the prospect of a FF digital M, for several reasons.

    I would like to see 15+MP in the sensor, giving more "cropability", and higher resolution when it's needed.

    Sensor technology has also improved since the original M8 CCD was designed. The micro-lenses can now be configured to capture more light (more surface area) to deliver to each photo site. This is how Canon squeezed more pixels in to the Mark III series, without increasing the sensor's size, and while maintaining or improving the noise levels (more light captured at each photo site).

    I like the trade-off of CCD over CMOS. CCD produces very crisp and clean images. But they take a lot of power, and produce more noise at higher ISOs. I'd like to see the M system using the best available CCD technologies, providing the same crisp/clean pixels, but with lower noise when you get to ISO 800 - 3200.

    If Leica makes these improvements in the M series (upgraded M8, or new M9), then I'll be all over it. While they're at it, they can address these other annoyances...

    - SDHC support
    - Electronic crop lines
    - Faster burst-rate (frames per second)
    - electronic focus confirmation (not sure how this would be done on a range-finder)
    - better battery life based on newer battery technology
    - Get rid of the silly bottom plate, to make changing cards/batteries easier

    I know this sounds like whining, but the reality is that there is room for improvement with the M8. It's a wonderful tool, but Leica needs to stay committed and passionate about improvements to the product line, incorporate new technologies that are emerging in digital imaging over time.
    Mike Hatam
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    Printing large & full frame

    IMHO there is no connection between the two whatsoever, actually. More MP = print larger, true in most cases; full frame = less noise, yes in most cases. Other than that, 10 MP on a 1.33x sensor will print as big as 10 MP on a 24x36 sensor. The Nikon D3 has less noise than its predecessors mainly because of pixel size: 12 MP on a 1.5x sensor are smaller (therefore noisier) than 12 MP on a 24x36 sensor. The noise difference in the D300 vs D2x comparison, same MP count & same size, on the other hand might be due to technological improvement of sort: Jack's remark might well be correct here, though I have a D300 and don't see "bad colors" coming out of it - plus, I'd PP the heck out of them anyway
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I'm such a noob with Leica that I'm still in love with the glass. The body is cool, but I'm not all that attached to it. However, there's already more potential in the existing body config. than I have the skill or the time to pull out of it. So as long as I can use my 28 cron and dream about all the other lenses I want to use on the M8 (or whatever it morphs into) then I'm a happy camper.

    My biggest fear at this point is if Leica will even be around. The recent double hit of communication from them is very unsettling. In the darkest places of my imagination I can envision the M8 becoming the camera equivalent of an Edsel.

  34. #34
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I must say, I think that the best first step is to concentrate on the M8 they have:
    SDHC support
    better JPG's (don't need 'em myself but folks do)
    easier exposure compensation, ISO, WB changing (as per Sean's posts on the Leica forum).

    These things can all be done with the existing hardware - by all means keep to the shutter upgrade (I'd like one fast one and one quiet one).

    I'd like to see a new sensor at some point, but right now I'm pretty happy, and some sort of commitment to improvements to the M8, and the fact that it won't be superseded for a year or so ought to settle the jitters, then they might sell some more cameras!

    . . . . . . and of course they should be working on their QA.

    Just this guy you know

  35. #35
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I have no idea what is next from any vendor.
    The idea that I would is bad for their business and thus ultimately bad for me.
    Not knowing what is next is not and should not be an issue for pause.
    Management issues, on the other hand, might be, but only if you fear their collapse.
    This was not so important in the mechanical days when somebody like DAG could pick up the burden. All this electronic stuff needs parts inventories and so-forth to provide support.
    But, if the product doesn't fail, it is less of a worry, but but Leica could do some work here to improve the situation.
    Most of the electronics business, except for the military side of things, has a very short support life. Camera buyers have a longer expectation than most, so that translates into spares reserves which cost must be built into the price. Except for some notable analog parts (op amps for example) sensors and ics have a manufacturing life under five years. But I can't remember the last ELECTRONIC thing that I have ever owned that has lasted that long other than televisions and similar; certainly not cameras or computers.
    -bob

  36. #36
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    I love the M8 as is and so am not whining about FF or upgrades (nice to haves no doubt). However I am concerned (or whining about) Leica's apparent inability to take advantage of the M8 success and may fall back to the marginal company it was before.

    Alan

  37. #37
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    i've been pondering about full frame this past several weeks, and a few days ago i realize that the M8 is almost full frame. comparing the m8 sensor size to the other sensors on the market, the m8 is approximately 77 percent (1.33) versus 50 percent (1.5) of full frame for the other sensors. is my math correct? otherwise, you can call this my new math

    – dan

  38. #38
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    When we talk crop, we are comparing capture area on the sensor. Note that you arrive at the crop factor if you compare the frame diagonal, just like with prints. So a 1.33 crop camera has 1/1.33 or 75%, while a 1.5 crop is 1/1.5 or 67%...
    Jack
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  39. #39
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    ...and it is 56% and 44% when considering the area of coverage of the sensor...

    Alan

  40. #40
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Well I dont care about high ISO and I don't want in camera smoothing ala CaNikon, and I care about quality files so I have an M8 and now again a DMR. The quality of the files is what makes me so interested in a full frame version of the M8 and the R - and the full frame version means my lenses work like they are supposed and designed to work.

    I do care about paying for Leica quality and not getting it. The simple fact of the matter is that they are destroying their franchise by delivering gear that is not up to spec. This issue is compounded by poor service. There is a brain snap going on in there regarding how much they think they can push people's loyalty.

    Why should I have to send my lenses into Leica so that they can get 'coded' so that some software can recognize the lens I am using in an M camera? Why cant they just supply me with a plug in module for C1 or Adobe and let me tell the module what adjustment to make to the raw file in post shot production? They are basing a lot of their decisions on bespoke service culture - and not delivering a bespoke service.

    if you guys think this is harsh - so be it. But I have been a long time user and supporter of Leica - because things used to work very well - out of the box. Now we get to the cheaper line of lenses announced - which aren't really much cheaper, and upgrade policies at ridiculous prices involving shipment back to Leica - in order to fix a sticky shutter release, noisy shutter and scratchy LCD - what rubbish!

    At the same time we have pictures of square jawed models posing with Leica cameras in some kind of Teutonic castle setting not even knowing how to hold the gear properly as a marketing break through - the common denominator is well meaning strategy - poorly executed.

    In a small company, lacking resources...it is a dangerous way to play. Instead of focusing on what IS going to work - we have Leica making in one way or another two different classes of lenses, numerous branded cameras and lenses,in numerous formats and moving to a fast twitch business model. They cant do this properly ( as if anyone can) - what they have ended up with now - is a lot of inventory that people aren't buying, and the stuff peopel want to buy or get serviced isnt there! ..anyone in business knows that focusing on fewer product lines and get them right is what makes money. The consultants will be in there in due course telling them same.

    Looking forward what they can do right, is get world class products out - and that means - full frame bodies that work with existing and future best of breed lens designs. That has always been their market - and that should be their market. regarding announcements - making announcements via gossip and innuendo is really bad business.

    /rant

  41. #41
    sirvine
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    The new Leica Camera website is a textbook case study in how to annoy web users: requires a plug-in to load, automatically plays music, obfuscates the important information behind long, annoying advertisements, and (sin of all sins) pop-up windows. The whole thing is totally out of step with Leica's reputation for capable engineering.

  42. #42
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    SNIP

    /rant
    Peter:

    I totally agree with ALL of these issues! My point was that for me, I'd rather have the digital M I have, complete with all its warts, than no digital M at all...

    Agree that their current brand of service is abhorrent, agree that the new website is a joke AND an insult to me as a customer and even agree with your statement on lens coding!

    The bigger problem as I see it, is that Leica is and remains a German company -- complete with traditional German arrogance toward their market... Unfortunately this is what's hurting them in the current GLOBAL economic world and unless they change their ways, they will die. (And by the time that happens, I just hope I can afford a Leaf back and Rollei Hy6 outfit )

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  43. #43
    Huwge
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is 1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

    Huw

  44. #44
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Huwge View Post
    Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is 1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

    Huw
    sounds good to me, but e-mail from whom, leica?

  45. #45
    Huwge
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    http://de.leica-camera.com/service/s...grade/?mid=334

    There you go, only in German but soon to be in English

    Huw

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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Huwge View Post
    Well, something seems to be happening. Just got an e-mail that says upgrades will begin in August, but you can opt to have both shutter & glass, shutter, or glass. Price is 1120, 750 and 800 respectively.

    Huw
    This looks interesting, and the multiple options may be the result of folks requesting that....hard to tell. It does look like you transposed the prices on the glass (should be 750) and the shutter (should be 800), based on the German site for which you provided the link. No big deal, and glad to see this as possible adjustments to the program. Timeframe still seems too long, but we will have to see how that plays out.

    LJ

  47. #47
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Huwge View Post
    http://de.leica-camera.com/service/s...grade/?mid=334

    There you go, only in German but soon to be in English

    Huw
    thanks!

    just found the english version:
    http://en.leica-camera.com/service/s...grade/?mid=334

    New order process - As of August 2008
    New is that you can commission the upgrades either through your Leica dealer or directly through the Leica Customer Service as of August 2008. Important: Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary nor the acquisition of certificates - the order will be handled just like any other service commission. The payment will only be due before your camera is sent back to you.

    Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers:
    As planned, fitting the sapphire glass cover and the shutter will presumably commence as of August 2008 in Germany, and it will also be possible (this is new) in all other authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers in the USA, Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea. Please observe that sending the camera to a Service Center is carried out at your own expense. Within the EU, you may call upon our Quick or Express Service for the upgrades.

    The three upgrade-options now available will cost:

    - ex 1120,- EUR for both the shutter and the sapphire glass cover
    - ex 750,- EUR for the sapphire glass cover only
    - ex 800,- EUR for the shutter only



    There is no need to reserve a "certificate" from Leica for this upgrade.
    You can make upgrade arrangements through a Leica dealer or directly with Leica.
    The Quick or Express Service is available within the EU.
    Payment due only when upgraded camera is ready to be returned.
    Last edited by Daniel; 29th February 2008 at 09:48. Reason: for clarity

  48. #48
    Huwge
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    This looks interesting, and the multiple options may be the result of folks requesting that....hard to tell. It does look like you transposed the prices on the glass (should be 750) and the shutter (should be 800), based on the German site for which you provided the link
    LJ
    my bad, sorry

  49. #49
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Just so folks understand the technical tradeoff of higher ISO and lower noise: To get there, Canon and Nikon end up essentially "smearing" the color channels and re-assembling the smear during de-bayering. Bottom line it's why folks are complaining now about the Nikon D3's color not being up to snuff with the "old" Nikon standard, and it's why Canon has been sub-par for the past several cameras...

    Me? I'll take superior color over higher iSO performance 8 days a week. If I need higher ISO, I'd rather live with the noise than crappy color...
    Jack

    I have the D3 and follow the nikon forums at both Fred Miranda and Nikonians to get a sense of what others are saying and comparing that to my own experiences. Frankly the last thing I have been hearing is about color fidelity. In fact there are raves about getting the best skin color ever from a digital sensor. That mirrors my experiences exactly.

    Now understand, I am not comparing the D3 to the M8. As you know I have two bodies and virtually all of the great primes and intend to keep them as they work well for me. I would love to get better noise performance and certainly FF is one way to get there if you keep the total pixel count in the 12-14 Mpx range to take advantage of the larger pixel dimensions. And given the M8's sensational image quality at 10Mpx. 12 to 14 would certainly be enough for me to print my 22x30 images at even better quality than I get now.

    But for macro, long telephoto and low light shooting i will take the D3 without hesitation.l JMBO and YMMV

    Woody

  50. #50
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    Re: New statement by Leica on the M8

    Quote Originally Posted by thegrumpymonk View Post
    thanks!

    just found the english version:
    http://en.leica-camera.com/service/s...grade/?mid=334

    New order process - As of August 2008
    New is that you can commission the upgrades either through your Leica dealer or directly through the Leica Customer Service as of August 2008. Important: Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary nor the acquisition of certificates - the order will be handled just like any other service commission. The payment will only be due before your camera is sent back to you.

    Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers:
    As planned, fitting the sapphire glass cover and the shutter will presumably commence as of August 2008 in Germany, and it will also be possible (this is new) in all other authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers in the USA, Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea. Please observe that sending the camera to a Service Center is carried out at your own expense. Within the EU, you may call upon our Quick or Express Service for the upgrades.

    The three upgrade-options now available will cost:

    - ex 1120,- EUR for both the shutter and the sapphire glass cover
    - ex 750,- EUR for the sapphire glass cover only
    - ex 800,- EUR for the shutter only



    There is no need to reserve a "certificate" from Leica for this upgrade.
    You can make upgrade arrangements through a Leica dealer or directly with Leica.
    The Quick or Express Service is available within the EU.
    Payment due only before upgraded camera is returned.

    I'm assuming that "Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary" means no extra warranty? Any clarification?
    Note however that the warranty extension is now one year wheras the original announcement was for two years. To me that significantly changes the value of the upgrade. A two year extension to me was very valuable.

    Woody

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