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Thread: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

  1. #51
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4


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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    I like the last one.

    It seems that rendering of the Nokton 35/1.4 is nice at all intermediate f-stops. This seems like the behavior of the pre-asph Summilux, which was lovely at intermediate f-stops, but I am told was sometimes bizarre at 1.4 and 2.0. My summicron-asph 35 has a flat image field (checked it with a newspaper on the wall) at 2.0, and bokeh which looks to me like coarse stage painting. So I'll stay with it for now. (Have to, since the initial supply of the CV35/1.4 is sold out.)

    scott

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    All the photos taken at f1.4 shots look better then my 2nd 35 1.4 aspherical black model I have a titanuim now this might rival .

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    I'm really beginning to like this lens and its idiosyncrasies have stopped bothering me. It's definitely one that's above the Mendoza Line.

  5. #55
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Is that line doubling in the OOF areas on some of the first shots? Before I quit shooting my R-D1 my 40/2 leica did that I think but it was supposed to clean up when you stop down. This lens looks like a good optic for the money and has quite a bit of bite IMHO.

  6. #56
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    Re: further request

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Maggie --

    For the obsessed pixel-peepers, could you upload one or two raw files to Yousendit and share the links? You're posting resized jpegs on Flickr, so a lot has already happened to the file before we see it. Cases of most interest would be:
    f/5.6 outdoors with objects at various distances;
    the classic brick wall, bulletin board or wall of books at f/1.4 and tripod;
    and pictures somewhat like your cattails in which there are fine details backlit such as tree branches against a medium tone sky. (at f/5.6, not at f/11, so that there is no possibility of diffraction limiting the sharpness or obscuring any CA)

    If you share the raw file, it is possible, thanks to Cornerfix, to know the aperture used. Flickr's exif reading is a mixed bag. I can see your firmware level, ISO, number of shutter activations, and software used to create the Jpeg, but the shutter readout is not convincing, and the aperture and focal length are a complete mystery.

    Sean is off to Florida and motorcycles, so we are probably a month away from seeing his detailed test of this lens. In the mean time, you are the expert.

    thanks,

    scott
    Hi Scott,

    I am in Florida now but I can't ride until my leg heals fully from the VT fall on ice (walking). I have SC and MC versions of the 35/1.4 here but will be away from my usual testing setups until April. So, I'll do the review in two parts. Part one will be based primarily on field use and will be published while I'm here. Part two will include my usual comparative tests.

    I'm working on the Daytona Wall pictures through Saturday and then people on beaches through the end of March.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  7. #57
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I think it probably has focus shift. If you look at the shots of your sister, the ones at f1.4 are soft, while the the f2 are nice and sharp.
    Just be careful to do controlled tests with focus bracketing before drawing any conclusions about resolution, focus shift, etc. Its easy to be fooled by confounding variables.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  8. #58
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I'm looking at the bricks. I see why Sean insists on focus bracketing when he tests wide open. It looks to me as if the 1.4 is a little out of focus, and shows some vignetting. The 5.6 and the 8 seem sharp and evenly illuminated, but I would have guessed that there is diffraction at f/11 reducing the sharpness and contrast of the image. From the cans, it looks like there is a focus shift of as much as an inch at f/1.4, so try pulling the focus forward in tiny amounts and I bet that one will sharpen up and brighten as well. How does the best result with your brick wall work out at f/2? The can trick to check for focus shift at f/2.0 would also help to determine if you will have to focus bracket here as well.

    scott
    Hi Scott,

    I focus bracket for the full aperture series with each lens and, yes, it's essential. Its very easy for slight misfocus to confuse one's sense of what's going on.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  9. #59
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    OK, here's a thought- if the lens is backfocusing, wouldn't it make sense that the middle is mushy (that was the focus point) and the corners, being farther away, should be in focus? Though f5.6 should have enough DOF to cover that range, yes?

    Is this something that can be adjusted? Do I send the lens back to Cameraquest? I'm kinda getting bummed out here. (Thankfully, I can go and shoot with my lovely 50/2 Heliar Classic and it cheers me up.)
    Hi Maggie,

    I wouldn't worry until and unless you see a problem after doing very methodical testing. Semi-methodical testing is, unfortunately, the most potentially misleading of all. If your usual pictures look good to you, I wouldn't worry for now.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Maggie,

    I wouldn't worry until and unless you see a problem after doing very methodical testing. Semi-methodical testing is, unfortunately, the most potentially misleading of all. If your usual pictures look good to you, I wouldn't worry for now.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to at this point- I'm making photos that look like how I expected them to look, so I'm not going to worry. Thanks for the reinforcement!

  11. #61
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Give Steve Gandy a call, and show him these pictures. It might be worth trying a second copy of the lens. There were reports of variations in performance with the CV21 and Cv25s. Ideally, the plane of sharpest focus should be a plane, not a sphere or other curved surface, but few lenses can really pull that off. Those that can are usually labeled macro lenses, and have been designed for flatness of field. When Sean shoots his resolution tests, he first checks very carefully to ensure that the back of the camera is parallel to the test wall, then focus brackets. I think he chooses the image which is sharpest in the center to study. If the image field is curved, then you will see that the corners are soft when the center is sharp.

    scott

    That's right. The camera must be absolutely parallel (horizontally and vertically) to the (nearly flat) test subject. Then one needs to focus bracket in steps so small that they, initially, do not even move the RF window. As Scott knows, as an engineering professor, one must eliminate confounding variables in order to see a set of results clearly. I strongly recommend that people not worry too much about results that "seem" to be revealed by casual testing. The method often just isn't precise enough to tell us what we need.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  12. #62
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Looking at my non-boffin shots, I have to say that I'm happy with most of them, and the ones that don't quite look right could be more due to my sloppy technique than the lens. I talked to my SO about this and he suggested that I shoot a bunch more with the lens- out and about, maybe go downtown and get all street with it and then see how I'm feeling and thinking about the lens and the images it produces.

    I think he's right on the money with that advice.

    Sorry to be late to the party with this thread. I've been resting/seeing doctors, then travelling, then shooting each day as long as my leg would tolerate. Its a rainy day now so I've got some time to catch up on forums and work on articles.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Last edited by Sean_Reid; 7th March 2008 at 09:03.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    The first part of Sean's review of this lens is up at his site.

    Looks like the backfocus problem is an issue with his sample lens, too.

    Anyone want to trade a CV 2.5 Color-Skopar for my Nokton?

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    From Sean's review, i would conclude that the new CV is not a way for me to get one more useful stop than I presently enjoy with a 35/2.0-asph Summicron. He compares it with the 35/1.4-asph Summilux, which he had handy. I hope he will compare with the Summicron as well when he is back in the lab. Opnions differ on whether the 'cron or the 'lux is the sharper at f/2.0 or above (read Erwin Puts, for example).

    It's too bad. I would have preferred to hear that Cosina had a real winner, if just to keep things lively. And it does look like a very enjoyable, tiny lens to shoot with.

    scott

  15. #65
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Hi Scott,

    Actually, I don't have a 35 Lux ASPH handy here but will do that testing when I get back to VT. The comparison lens I used for Part One was the CV 35/1.7. I did compare the Cron and the Lux in the 35s review last year.

    Maggie,

    It may be that later samples of the 35/1.4 do better. In any case, though, a good copy of the CV 35/2.5 is the greater sleeper of 35 mm RF lenses. My LTM version of that lens has been my primary lens this month.

    Also, the 35/1.2 Nokton and 35/1.7 Ultron are both impressive in many ways. Those would be the less expensive ways for you to gain a bit of lens speed, Scott. Still, the 35 Lux ASPH is king of the fast 35s for me.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    I've got the 35mm Ultron- it was my first lens for the M8!

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    From Sean's review, i would conclude that the new CV is not a way for me to get one more useful stop than I presently enjoy with a 35/2.0-asph Summicron. He compares it with the 35/1.4-asph Summilux, which he had handy. I hope he will compare with the Summicron as well when he is back in the lab. Opnions differ on whether the 'cron or the 'lux is the sharper at f/2.0 or above (read Erwin Puts, for example).

    It's too bad. I would have preferred to hear that Cosina had a real winner, if just to keep things lively. And it does look like a very enjoyable, tiny lens to shoot with.

    scott
    Hi Scott
    I'm with you here - I'm afraid the 'crons are the wallflowers of the leica lens lineup; if you're going for leica, go for the best and get the 'lux, but I have the 35, 50, 75 'crons, and they are all excellent and small, if I want to be really fast then I'll bung on a Noctilux and have done with it.

    The 35 cron asph seems to me to be a lovely and businesslike lens.

    Just this guy you know

  18. #68
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    I've got the 35mm Ultron- it was my first lens for the M8!
    I thought so. In many respects it seems to be a better lens than the 35/1.4. Sometimes aspherical elements do the trick.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    But my objective was fast, light and wide, and it seems that only two at a time are possible, sometimes only one.

    scott

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    I was deliberating back and forth on what to do for my 35 and placed a deposit on the CV35 Nokton. I have the color skopar which is excellent and when a version IV cron recently turned up at a good price I picked it up. The CV is so inexpensive and so good and sooooo small I'm keeping both.

    ooops. Forgot to write that I cancelled the Nokton order.

    From Day 2 with my M8 (wasn't doing too well on the framing) the OOF areas are very smooth. Very hard to believe this is about a $210 lens.

    Last edited by Terry; 1st April 2008 at 19:00.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Maggie, what the h$ll is that in your avatar??? (Or is it what I think it is???)
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Terry, I thought you had a Cron version IV ??? You have TWO 35's ???




    PS: GREAT shot, BTW!
    Jack
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Terry, I thought you had a Cron version IV ??? You have TWO 35's ???




    PS: GREAT shot, BTW!
    Oops. I just edited my post. I cancelled the order on the 35 Nokton after buying the version IV cron. I still have the CV35 f2.5. I have a couple of CVs to sell but haven't done it yet. I can't bring myself to put the 35 up for sale (hey it costs less than a handgrip, magnifier, and many other accessories and was my first lens) and the last time I posted about putting the 21 up for sale Sean went becuase he tested it and it was a very good copy sharp across the whole frame. Finally I have a 28 that is unused. I got it because the LTM version had been discontinued and I didn't know what I was doing on lenses.....think back to one of my very first posts on your site "I'm going to Morocco and I have nothing fast on the wide end".....Terry gets inaugurated into the the world of expensive lenses with a 28 cron

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Maggie, what the h$ll is that in your avatar??? (Or is it what I think it is???)
    It's a bidet.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    My copy of the 35 1.4 appears very good right to the corners but of course I am not doing rigorous testing like Sean. Perhaps when he returns to Vermont Sean might like to borrow my copy to see how it compares to what he already has. Mine is an MRC by the way

    Woody

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    It's a bidet.
    I actually knew that... Only problem is I've never seen instructions. Several years back we traveled with the family to Europe. Upon entering the hotel for the evening, my 8 year old son exclaimed, "Wow, wait until you guys see the fancy drinking fountain in the bathroom!"


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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I actually knew that... Only problem is I've never seen instructions...
    Maybe it's because you're a guy Jack.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I actually knew that... Only problem is I've never seen instructions. Several years back we traveled with the family to Europe. Upon entering the hotel for the evening, my 8 year old son exclaimed, "Wow, wait until you guys see the fancy drinking fountain in the bathroom!"


    ,
    Back in the 1970's when my parents renovated their house, my mother put in a bidet. As a young teenager, I would show it to my friends with the taps turned on and the water flowing. I would then have them turn the tap that turned on the water jet. Most of them ended up with that fountain of water in the face :_ If you had the taps open far enough, it could practically hit the ceiling

    Robert

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    There's a new meme making the rounds over at RFF: Sean's review of this lens is wrong because:

    1)His testing methods are sloppy
    2)His M8 is out of adjustment and it is a problem with the camera and not the lens
    3)He is "pushing some agenda"

    There are claims that the lens was "designed for film cameras," and as such, of course it won't work with the M8, which is terribly flawed, etc... Also, his reviews are supposedly incomplete because he doesn't test each lens on a film camera in addition to the M8.

    Sounds like hooey to me. How could it be the camera, when the other six Voigtländer lenses I own all work perfectly with my M8?

    My question about the lens is this: are we seeing a few lemons or does it have a fundamental design flaw?

  30. #80
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Hi Maggie,

    I didn't see that. The focus bracketing process takes care of the focus question. I'm not sure if I want to dive into a Viper's pit or not but what is the link?

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    There's a new meme making the rounds over at RFF: Sean's review of this lens is wrong because:

    1)His testing methods are sloppy

    ...(snip)...

    My question about the lens is this: are we seeing a few lemons or does it have a fundamental design flaw?
    I disagree with #1, no comment on the rest of the "points" made. I don't always agree with the steps he follows, but he is explicit about what he is doing, he controls for things like illumination color temperature, and he is clearly careful enough so that his lens-to-lens comparisons have held up.

    The MaggieO lab work on this lens (that was you, wasn't it? So long ago...) was quite sufficient to show that the CV35/1.4 offers curvature of field and focus shift, even though she didn't get the focus perfect at f/1.4 and I think used the same focus settings at the smaller apertures. That test got all four corners equally sharp, which indicates that the back of the camera was parallel to the target wall.

    Read the Chris Weeks stream of consciousness review and I can see where the lens has appeal -- for dramatic effect that may not be for everyone. My M2 with its 1950s lenses (Canon 35/2 was the primary one) had the characteristic that any exposed light sources in the forward half sphere would contribute a lovely overall glow to the pictures. The CV35/1.4 instead gives impressive local flare and ghosting with intriguing shapes. So it is a step ahead of my Canon 35/2.0, but so would a pre-asph 35 Summilux have been. That is probably the proper comparison.

    scott

    PS -- In some of the comments after the Weeks blog article I detected a self-incriminating tone of dismissal that I haven't heard since high school -- jocks vs the college-bound geeks. And best ignored.
    Last edited by scott kirkpatrick; 6th April 2008 at 09:14.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Here's the thread.

    Tom A seems to be getting very good results from his copies of the Nokton. So, maybe it's more of a problem with Q/C than a design flaw? He's using them on an M4, I think.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    PS -- In some of the comments after the Weeks blog article I detected a self-incriminating tone of dismissal that I haven't heard since high school -- jocks vs the college-bound geeks.
    Well, Chris' writing seems to be designed to inflame, so the responses really didn't surprise me.

    Oh, and yeah- I did the focus shift (with soup cans) and brick wall test shots.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Maggie O in the viper pit (rff blog): I don't have a film M-mount camera, nor do I know anyone within 1200 miles who owns one.
    I'll volunteer. I have an M2 coming back from Sherry Krauter in a few weeks. Would love to try the CV35/1.4 on it.

    scott

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    OK, send it to me! I promise to be nice to it.

    Are you close to Lincoln, NE?

  36. #86
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Pages 4 and 5 of this thread may be of interest:
    http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...t=57155&page=5

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    That topic has been deleted, I'm afraid.

  38. #88
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Too bad! I've been on the road all day (still am till later tonight) but I imagine someone must have tried to pull that thread into the toilet. Its a shame because there was some very good info in it and a good discussion between Tom A and myself. Bummer...

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Stephen Gandy explained that the original poster deleted the thread, FWIW.

    Yeah, it's a shame it's gone.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    When this lens is on, it really does nicely.

    Showdown, February, 2008



    M8, Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4 @ somewhere between f2 and f2.8 (IIRC), ISO 1250.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Nice Maggie!!!

    B/W conversion with . . . (JFI, Exposure)?
    Grain added?

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Nice Maggie!!!

    B/W conversion with . . . (JFI, Exposure)?
    Grain added?
    Thank you!!

    PP was all done in LightZone; no grain added, that's the noise @ ISO 1250, which I think looks pretty good in B&W.

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    no grain added, that's the noise @ ISO 1250, which I think looks pretty good in B&W.
    Amen to that!

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  44. #94
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    When this lens is on, it really does nicely.

    Showdown, February, 2008



    M8, Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4 @ somewhere between f2 and f2.8 (IIRC), ISO 1250.
    BRILLIANT MAGPIE!!!
    Your work reminds me of "Good' advertising campaigns
    Cheers! helen

  45. #95
    Haya
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Maggie i love the images you have taken with the nokton I would be very satisfied with the purchase too!

    I have just purchased a 35mm f1.2 nokton myself as well as a 15mm Heliar as I have been eyeing both those lenses since I bought my M8 a year ago

    The only reason I didn't go for the 1.4 Nokton is I really wanted the faster lens and I'm trying to appease my Noctilux cravings.

    I cannot get that lens out of my mind, I seriously think about it at least 3 times a day! I just can't justify the price tag

  46. #96
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Thanks, Haya! (and welcome!)

    I came to the conclusion that the Nokton Classic is kind of like an Alfa Romeo- it's a bit dodgy mechanically and you have to adjust to its way of doing things, but at the end of the day it's just so much fun and so full of character that you wind up loving it anyway. Even of you do think about selling it every other day.

    The big f1.2 Nokton looks like an awesome lens and I was mightily tempted by it, but the Ultron 28mm is about as big a lens as I'm comfortable with on my M8, so I was really jazzed when the f1.4 was announced.

  47. #97
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
    BRILLIANT MAGPIE!!!
    Your work reminds me of "Good' advertising campaigns
    Cheers! helen

  48. #98
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Haya View Post
    Maggie i love the images you have taken with the nokton I would be very satisfied with the purchase too!

    I have just purchased a 35mm f1.2 nokton myself as well as a 15mm Heliar as I have been eyeing both those lenses since I bought my M8 a year ago

    The only reason I didn't go for the 1.4 Nokton is I really wanted the faster lens and I'm trying to appease my Noctilux cravings.

    I cannot get that lens out of my mind, I seriously think about it at least 3 times a day! I just can't justify the price tag
    That 1.2 is an excellent lens with virtually no detectable focus shift.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  49. #99
    Haya
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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Yes Sean, your first 35mm review totally sold me on the lens I dunno why it took me so long to place the order, I knew I was going to buy it and the 15mm before I even got my hands on the M8

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    Re: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 35/1.4

    Haya,
    Welcome to a great community. Glad you are on board!

    The CV 35/1.2 Nokton was the first lens I used on my M8 and I still enjoy it very much. Sean's review is what got me into it also. I did succumb to the 50/1.0 Noctilux siren, and that has become my most used lens to date. I love it wide open, and I also love how it handles stopped down also. It has a bit of reputation for arriving with some backfocus problems, but they are easily fixed if needed.

    I was really looking forward to the CV 35/1.4 Nokton when folks here first started to talk about it, and I do like the much smaller size, but the 35/1.2 Nokton is still hard to beat for the images it draws. I think of it as my slightly "wider" Noctilux, and given the sensor crop compensation, it essentially is pretty close to a Noctilux on a film body.

    I also got the CV 15/4.5 and have fixed it (coding and filter) to work on the M8. Still one of the best deals going for the images it produces. It is a bit slow, and I find shooting it around f6.3-8 to be about ideal.

    You have a couple of gems....now, just find a way to snag a Noctilux.....at least for a couple weeks shooting. You will love what it does also.

    LJ

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