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Thread: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    If anything, it may spur Leica to become more competitive as they are currently alone in the DRF market. I am closely following these developments. I am also keenly interested in the Sony α950, which if it has ISO performance similar to my D700 would be of great use to me in my stage work.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Ranger 9 - we could also see something in between. My guess is a 16.67 MP at 1.2x crop; this is being derived from the same sensor as the S2, just a smaller size with the 30mm on the long side. If Leica made forward progress to 1.2x or 1.15x I think most people would be happy to see the change. It may not be ideal, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John B
    Well Carlos, if those Zeiss Ikon-D wishes come true, that could be a stunning development.
    I'd be stunned, all right... particularly since nobody involved in the current Ikon (Zeiss and Cosina) has the sensor, signal-processing, and system-integration expertise to make a digital camera. That was what Epson brought to the party for the R-D 1.

    So, who'd have to come into the picture for an Ikon D? Someone who has the technological expertise to "digify" a camera system, but who doesn't have an existing camera brand or lens line that would be hurt by this.

    For example, I can't see Canon, Nikon or Pentax wanting to contribute to a camera that couldn't be sold with their name (and lens mount) on it. Sony? Well, I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Cosina a sensor, but someone else still would have to do the overall integration. Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung all seem to have their own alternative direction and wouldn't want a distraction from it.

    Who's left? That's why Epson was such a good fit for the R-D 1... they had the know-how, but no existing camera business to protect. I'm not sure who else is available to fill that role.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    I
    I'm also skeptical that such a completely re-engineered camera could be delivered at a $7,700 price point, although I suppose all the electronics and software work that went into the S2 would be applicable to this as well.

    Alternatively, I could also imagine a September-announced, $7,700 M9 that's conceptually nothing more than an M8.2 with a higher pixel count, but that would produce a lot of long faces out in Leica-land...
    Consider the D3x. Nikon wasn't reinventing the wheel with that and it is a $7K camera. I fail to see how Leica could be making a FF M9 at this point, especially to sell for only $7K

    What makes far more sense to me is a Leica/Panasonic u4/3 camera in the $2-3K range and a smattering of M glass modified with a u4/3 mount. M9, if it exists, would more likely be an upgraded version of the M8 (ie some will dub it an M8.3).

    disclaimer - I have no inside information. But I also think that some dealers often don't know what they're talking about either...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    A reliable dealer in Asia is only getting 10 sets (he wants more) for the first shipment and they are all booked. I ordered 2 and have to pay in full by month's end to get a further discount instead of just placing a deposit. I'm being very optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    I agree that an "M9" with the traditional M form factor, optical range/viewfinder, full M lens compatibility, and 36x24mm sensor, priced at about $7,700 per earlier rumorposts, would be a great addition to the Leica line.

    I just don't think it can be done.

    Technically speaking, something in that dream feature set would have to give. In the M8, what gave was the 36x24 sensor.

    In a putative M9, I could imagine a 36x24 sensor but not with full M lens compatibility. (Maybe M lenses would be restricted to "crop mode," the way FX Nikons do with DX lenses, with a different line of longer-back-focus lenses that could use the full 36x24.)

    I'm also skeptical that such a completely re-engineered camera could be delivered at a $7,700 price point, although I suppose all the electronics and software work that went into the S2 would be applicable to this as well.

    Alternatively, I could also imagine a September-announced, $7,700 M9 that's conceptually nothing more than an M8.2 with a higher pixel count, but that would produce a lot of long faces out in Leica-land...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by steflaurent974 View Post
    For me the micro 4/3 is interesting for those looking for a new point and shoot, but it'll never replace nor a M8 nor a M9...
    Or cropped on an S2 sensor.....

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    So, who'd have to come into the picture for an Ikon D? Someone who has the technological expertise to "digify" a camera system, but who doesn't have an existing camera brand or lens line that would be hurt by this.
    The first "brand" that came to mind for me was Fuji. As for the sensor, who knows. There appear to be many companies able to produce CMOS, but Sony seems the most likely candidate since they'll sell to anyone.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    According to the stuff I and others have uncovered, the likely suspect for the sensor is Sony with it's Exmor-R sensor which fixes the issue of corner vignette with M-lenses. Sony may be contracted to do the whole shebang and slap a Zeiss label on it as part of the renewed contract between Zeiss and Sony. Lord knows Zeiss can tell them how to build it and the DRF market is way too niche for Sony to be interested. A Zeiss Ikon Digital wouldn't make the slightest dent in their sales. Plus, the camera is slated to be announced in 2010, after Sony has shipped their own Exmor-R based Alphas.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Carlos, that'd be cool if it all panned out. Panasonic says backlit sensors would get too hot if scaled up to 36x24mm... but maybe Sony knows something Pana doesn't.

    Also, rather than Sony doing the whole shebang, I'd be perfectly happy with Cosina handling the mechanical part, as they do with the film Ikon. Most people I've heard from seem to be very happy with the Ikon's RF/VF unit. The quality of this component is key to the RF shooting experience, and it's a challenging-to-make piece with which Sony has no experience.

    Either way, though -- and even if it's all only a dream -- this is still a more appealing dream for me than the Leica-branded dreams circulating elsewhere in the thread. I'm still a very avid Epson R-D 1 user -- for me the 1:1 viewfinder is a huge deal -- and I've felt for years that the same basic camera with a longer RF base, a higher pixel count, and a little more ISO range would be all I'd need for about 80% of my photography. (And it's looking more and more as if a Micro Four Thirds camera with an EVF and an M-adapter would cover the other 20%.) What you're describing sounds like exactly that camera...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    FWIW, Ranger9, I wouldn't forget that Sony makes a plethora of professional movie cameras and sound equipment that can price in the six figures, so I wouldn't worry too much about Sony's ability to build a little rangefinder, should they choose to.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I have pre-ordered a M9 to my european dealer. The price is 5500€, I have to choose between three colors (black, chrome, anthracite grey) and the dealer will only have ten !!!

    It will be delivered at the end of september or early october ; and according to the dealer ( not so far from sSolms) the leica M9 IS a Full Frame 24X36 sensor with 18 MP.

    We are now waiting for the full specification and pictures of the beast !
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Carlos, that'd be cool if it all panned out. Panasonic says backlit sensors would get too hot if scaled up to 36x24mm... but maybe Sony knows something Pana doesn't.

    Also, rather than Sony doing the whole shebang, I'd be perfectly happy with Cosina handling the mechanical part, as they do with the film Ikon. Most people I've heard from seem to be very happy with the Ikon's RF/VF unit. The quality of this component is key to the RF shooting experience, and it's a challenging-to-make piece with which Sony has no experience.

    Either way, though -- and even if it's all only a dream -- this is still a more appealing dream for me than the Leica-branded dreams circulating elsewhere in the thread. I'm still a very avid Epson R-D 1 user -- for me the 1:1 viewfinder is a huge deal -- and I've felt for years that the same basic camera with a longer RF base, a higher pixel count, and a little more ISO range would be all I'd need for about 80% of my photography. (And it's looking more and more as if a Micro Four Thirds camera with an EVF and an M-adapter would cover the other 20%.) What you're describing sounds like exactly that camera...
    Dave Farkas has dashed cold water on this whole ZI idea on LUF. Apparently Zeiss went on record stating to him that they decided that there would be no ZI DRF. It turned out to be impossible to produce one at a price that would be competitive to Leica, thus making the projected market share too small.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    It will be interesting to see how they solved the problem with oblique rays, stronger retrofocus-lenses (todays M-WA are non-symmetric because of the lightmeter, e.g. 3,4/21->2,8/21) don't really solve the problem because it would make older lenses incompatible and more demanding designs (like the new Summilux 21/24) impossible at this size and performance.

    Most likely are new microlenses that slowly become available, because they are part of the problem. Sensors without them can deal with oblique rays much better (that's why MFDBs work so well with Rodenstock/Schneider-WA) but are also less sensitive.

    I don't see how the new CMOS-technologies (like backlit or Exmor R) can solve these problems, because these are specific solutions to problems of CMOS-sensors. Their biggest disadvantage is their low fill-rate, which makes heavy post-processing necessary (which is quite easy with the integrated electronics of CMOS but makes IQ more problematic) that's why Sony and others try to position the non-light-sensitive parts of the area behind the light-sensitive parts. But CCDs don't really have this problem and I think the new 6µm-CCD-generation already has a fill-rate of over 80%!?

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009?

    Quote Originally Posted by steflaurent974 View Post
    I have pre-ordered a M9 to my european dealer. The price is 5500€, I have to choose between three colors (black, chrome, anthracite grey) and the dealer will only have ten !!!

    It will be delivered at the end of september or early october ; and according to the dealer ( not so far from Solms) the leica M9 IS a Full Frame 24X36 sensor with 18 MP.

    We are now waiting for the full specification and pictures of the beast !
    As Mr. Spock used to say on the old Star Trek TV show: "Interesting, if factual."

    It still stretches my credulity to think that:

    (a) They've really solved the problem of shallow flange distance on a 36x24mm sensor when other makers with much more sensor knowledge and bigger R&D budgets have not.

    (b) That they actually are far enough along to deliver finished cameras by the end of September (which would almost certainly mean that component orders would have had to be placed, field testing completed, and publicity materials printed many months ago, and that actual production would be happening right now) without having made any announcement. Maybe they didn't want to steal the S2's thunder, but it still seems implausible.

    On the other hand, I can't imagine that dealers would want to hack off good customers by taking deposits without being pretty sure they'd have something to deliver! True, habitual Leica buyers seem to be more tolerant than most (e.g. their willingness to go through the M8 "customer beta" phase) but on the other hand, they're also affluent, privileged-class people who aren't accustomed to being told "No, you can't have it"! So I'd think the dealers must be pretty convinced there's some fire behind all that smoke.



    Maybe I'm just in an unusually euphoric mood (brought on by the thought of how cool an anthracite-gray M would look) but on this particular day it seems possible that such a camera might actually even sell beyond the M8 customer base of plutocrats, celebrity hobbyists, and Middle Eastern nobility. Although loyal M8 owners rationalize otherwise, the practical reality was that it was a dubious value proposition in terms of picture-taking capability, which is a polite way of saying you were being asked to pay a helluva lot of money for a 10-megapixel camera with mediocre high-ISO performance and lots of operational limitations.

    If they can actually do it, an 18-megapixel M9 at 5500 euros (which is a nice, round US $ 7,777 at today's exchange rate) sounds a lot less crazy compared to what Nikon and Canon get for their top-end DSLRs.

    Such a camera might be semi-reasonable enough to tempt mainstream photographers who could benefit from the "rangefinder aesthetic" ... especially now that Zeiss and Cosina offer lower-cost lens alternatives, and Micro Four Thirds provides a cheap way to get a "digital Visoflex" for occasional close-up or tele shooting with your M lenses.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    "Hearsay" is defined as an out of court statement offered (as evidence) to prove the truth of the matter stated. Based on someone saying his or her "European dealer" said something, we're off on a frolic over the features the camera will have. I was told by an anonymous source that the M9 will have the same sensor as the mythical S2, that it will be available next Monday, and will sell for 7400 Euros. The downside is that it will not work on battery power, so will have to be shot tethered or with the optional 110/220 v. adapter. Let's wait til next week and see what transpires.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    On the sensor my bet would be the S2 since they will use really the same technology and Leica can get a better deal on buying many than compared to buying two separate sensor types. If someone did the math here on FF size with a 6 micron sensor and come up with a MPX . That would certainly help answer it given the rumor is 18 I believe
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    call it wish full thinking but an M9 AND a "visoflex" viewfinder for R lenses is what I would want because I couldn't afford to buy both an M9 & an R10 (and I'd rather have an M9 than an R10).
    Last edited by gero; 17th August 2009 at 10:00.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Those of you that have put your names in the list and have paid in full (assuming it is from an authorized dealer) are in for a treat (if the rumors are true, of course)... Just don't punish us with too many M9 cat images, please

    Cheers,

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    My (respectable) Belgian Leice dealer just confirmed that there will be a relaese of a new M camera in september.
    The new M (9 - 8.3 - ??) will coexist alongside the M8.2

    No details however.
    Just a serious price drop of the M8.2 and the end of life of the original M8.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    On the sensor my bet would be the S2 since they will use really the same technology and Leica can get a better deal on buying many than compared to buying two separate sensor types. If someone did the math here on FF size with a 6 micron sensor and come up with a MPX . That would certainly help answer it given the rumor is 18 I believe
    Rotating on the S2 sensor such that 30mm becomes the "long side" on the M9, it results in 16.67 MP in 30mm x 20mm size which is ~1.2x crop. I know for some that nothing less than full-frame will do. For me, 1.2x crop would be just fine. The only wrinkle in the 1.2x crop factor is its impact of the WATE viewfinder and another viewfinder gizmo's since 1.2x probably wouldn't map well to alternative set of lines / magnifications in those finders.

    And I fully agree with you Guy. Leica would presumably gain cost efficiencies by using Kodak as the sensor supplier, and presumably the same sensor foundation as the S2 (assuming it can be produced in the desired dimensions). I would also expect to see the Maestro chip as the M9's DSP. In theory a good portion of the DSP development from the S2 could be re-used in the M9, thus speeding up development and hopefully reducing cost.

    Cooter's Camera in Dallas this weekend only mentioned that many camera forums were speculating about a forthcoming M9 in September. They seemed indifferent about the rumor. Their Leica selection is barely one shelf in a glass case, so I doubt Leica is concerned about keeping them "in the know".

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    John I would think at the wafer stage say it is 8 inch round they could possible cut 3 S2 size than saving space instead Of trying to squeeze in two more S2 size just make 3 or 4 M9 size. That was my thinking, obviously the numbers maybe off here but you get my thinking. They could gain more by splitting it up and get as least waste as possible which saves money. Than each type of sensor would go into the micro- lens stage since they would most likely be different.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Here is a question for the M8/8.2 owners/M9 wanters.....let's imagine the M9 makes it to the streets in a month or so, or later; further, let's imagine it will be 36x24mm (full frame 35mm), or even as is suggested, 30x20mm (1.2x crop, which is not all that far from the present 1.3x crop of the M8/8.2 model); further, it will accept all the present M lenses, etc......what are folks thinking about with respect to getting the M9 yet keeping their M8/8.2 as a second or back-up camera? How are you thinking about the UV//IR filter issue? Plan on carrying a little folder of various UV/IR filters to swap on an off lenses whenever you switch bodies? How convenient is that going to be for many?

    Sure, it is not much of an issue, as most M8/8.2 owners already have filters, so no added cost, but now it becomes more of the extra equipment to carry, not to mention what differences may exist in color profiles when going to process things later. None of this may be an issue, but I just started thinking about that aspect, and wonder what others thought. Would folks start to ditch their M8/8.2 bodies, or keep them and live with the ongoing UV/IR filter hassle? Yeah, almost all of us would prefer shooting without those pesky and expensive filters, so would many just stop shooting the M8/8.2 once they got the M9 that would not need those filters anymore? Use the M8/8.2 for B/W or IR shooting mostly? Dump the M8/8.2 and try to dump the filters also? (Leica sure cleaned up on selling those puppies to most of us, and now they would become a bit more obsolete for all but those keeping and using the M8/8.2 body. Feeling a bit more burned now? I am.)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    LJL, your question assumes the "M9" will eliminate the need for the filters.

    That's what everybody's hoping will happen, and various technological breakthroughs have been invoked to explain how it might happen. (Anybody thought of employing Maxwell's Demon? He could run around with a little prism, straightening out the chief ray angles at the edges of the sensor...)

    But we don't know that it will happen... and if it doesn't, the filters will be as necessary as ever.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

    1) Be full frame 24x36 and

    2) Not need additional IR cut filters and

    3) Be in the M8 form factor body and

    4) Probably use the same battery as the M8 and

    5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    LJL, your question assumes the "M9" will eliminate the need for the filters.

    That's what everybody's hoping will happen, and various technological breakthroughs have been invoked to explain how it might happen. (Anybody thought of employing Maxwell's Demon? He could run around with a little prism, straightening out the chief ray angles at the edges of the sensor...)

    But we don't know that it will happen... and if it doesn't, the filters will be as necessary as ever.
    Yes, I am assuming any M9 if it has a new sensor will NOT require additional UV/IR filtering on the lenses. That may be a poor assumption, but I think Leica would continue to get slammed if they did not correct that ugly mistake on a new generation/model camera. To purposely continue to build in this sort of "problem", with the offered correction still working against the concept of why folks would prefer to use Leica glass without extra filters in front, seems unlikely. I could be very wrong, but can you imagine a new camera, new sensor, new processing, etc., plagued with an old, ugly problem that could be fixed, rather than perpetuated?

    LJ

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I agree it would be better to fix the IR issue, I just don't know if it can be fixed within the scope of the M-mount flange distance AND with something they can release by the end of September!

    Jack, any comment on what's behind your electronic-focus-confirmation belief? This would be a stretch for me, since there's nothing in the M8 design that would provide an input for it. (You can't do this off the imaging sensor; you'd need to add a pair of phase detectors, a la the Contax G1/G2...)

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

    5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

    ,
    In a dSLR the light is routed to AF sensor via a sub-mirror, so how do we get the light to the AF sensor in a M9? And we know the CCD won't be turned on with contrast AF like a digicam due to heat build up. The idea sounds interesting, but technically it sounds quite challenging. I'd like to Build-To-Order options of .72 and/or .85 viewfinder magnification. I'd also like to see the diopter adjustment built into the M body. My eyes vary day by day, some days I need more diopter adjustment, other days less.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    John I would think at the wafer stage say it is 8 inch round they could possible cut 3 S2 size than saving space instead Of trying to squeeze in two more S2 size just make 3 or 4 M9 size. That was my thinking, obviously the numbers maybe off here but you get my thinking. They could gain more by splitting it up and get as least waste as possible which saves money. Than each type of sensor would go into the micro- lens stage since they would most likely be different.
    Guy

    I don't know about the 8 inch wafer as a size of choice for such a large sensor. I would guess these to be produced on 12 inch wafers which dramatically changes the production economics.

    Wait and see I would guess

    Woody

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Jack - Hope you're right on the focus confirmation; if true firmware could conceivably correct for focus shift and the Nocti could actually be usable with a decent yield of keepers in poor light. A very big development.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Guy

    I don't know about the 8 inch wafer as a size of choice for such a large sensor. I would guess these to be produced on 12 inch wafers which dramatically changes the production economics.

    Wait and see I would guess

    Woody
    Thanks Woody I know you have been in this business and was not sure of the true output size of the wafer. Thanks for inputting that but I know you know what I was getting at with waste it could be cut up between the two sizes to save costs.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Okay I am going out on a limb here because i mentioned this to Leica 2 years ago and maybe just maybe they did it on the M9 and it was actually drawn out on a napkin in a German pub. Nothing added here

    Okay electronic frame lines. Take out those stupid mechanical frame lines and when you put a coded lens on it reads the focal length and the processor projects the exact 100 percent accuracy frame lines for that lens on the body. Now my added twist. Once you have that and say you put a 75mm lens on which today is a small rectangle on the M8 again the processor and on board computer reads the code decides it is a 75mm and magnifies the frame lines to almost the full frame of the finder and any lens you put on there it does the same thing . So you always will have the image in almost all of the finder regardless of focal length. Yes folks this is the magic part. I know I am nuts but hear me out what are the two biggest complaints about the M8. i will tell you focusing and viewing that small frame lines. If you had exact electronic frame lines at 100 percent of coverage than had the image almost to full magnification in the finder you can see for one and you can focus easier for two. Now put that in the crystal ball.

    I know genius come to mind but hold the applause please.

    Oh than add Jacks focus confirmation and you have maybe the best 35mm camera on the market. Eat that Nikon, Canon and Sony

    Okay that was my silly moment of the day
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

    1) Be full frame 24x36 and

    2) Not need additional IR cut filters and

    3) Be in the M8 form factor body and

    4) Probably use the same battery as the M8 and

    5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

    ,
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    LOL that is why he is my business partner. I maybe dumb but I ain't stupid. LOL
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I am going out on a limb here because i mentioned this to Leica 2 years ago and maybe just maybe they did it on the M9 and it was actually drawn out on a napkin in a German pub. Nothing added here

    Okay electronic frame lines. Take out those stupid mechanical frame lines and when you put a coded lens on it reads the focal length and the processor projects the exact 100 percent accuracy frame lines for that lens on the body. Now my added twist. Once you have that and say you put a 75mm lens on which today is a small rectangle on the M8 again the processor and on board computer reads the code decides it is a 75mm and magnifies the frame lines to almost the full frame of the finder and any lens you put on there it does the same thing . So you always will have the image in almost all of the finder regardless of focal length. Yes folks this is the magic part. I know I am nuts but hear me out what are the two biggest complaints about the M8. i will tell you focusing and viewing that small frame lines. If you had exact electronic frame lines at 100 percent of coverage than had the image almost to full magnification in the finder you can see for one and you can focus easier for two. Now put that in the crystal ball.

    I know genius come to mind but hold the applause please.

    Oh than add Jacks focus confirmation and you have maybe the best 35mm camera on the market. Eat that Nikon, Canon and Sony

    Okay that was my silly moment of the day
    Guy,
    I think the idea of electronic frame lines projected into the viewfinder for the specific lens could work. However, not so sure about the magnification of things to fill the framelines. That would seem to require some sort of either mechanical/aux lens with the viewfinder assembly, or an electronic viewfinder/live view sort of arrangement. The first part would not work, but the second part would if the sensor was "hot" to view things. If that was the case, then you would not need some other form of focus confirmation, nor would framelines even matter, as you would be working off of the LCD, like most P&S cameras do now.

    Not tossing water on the idea, but it does seem difficult to do....the magnification of image area to fill the electronic framelines. Maybe I need a few martinis or something, but I am not following the concept at this point without going to a lot of mechanical work in a very crowded space, or without going live view. I just do not see the viewfinder of the M changing all that much, or it will essentially no longer be a "rangefinder" camera. Electronic framelines that are accurate would work fine. Focus confirmation is going to be tricky, but I guess there could be contrast sensors placed on the rengefinder ends that when overlapped perfectly signal a LED in the viewfinder that things are in focus. That seems doable.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Gotta believe in magic and fairy dust bud. LOL
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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The electronic frame lines still would not be 100% accurate. They can be 100% accurate (or darned close to it) at the focussed distance but as long as it's a non-TTL viewfinder there will always be some error on either side of the plane of focus.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Even with an M9 I would keep my M8. Multiple cameras as backup is not a big thing to deal with.

    If the M9 requires lens coding and that is the only way to get framelines, it becomes a no-go. All my classic lenses going back to 1938 go out the window along with the Zeiss and Canon ones. I guess I would buy an 8.2 and wish Leica well in it's brave new world.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I could almost guarantee they would not do that. It would be suicide. If there were electronic framelines, I am sure you would be able to select a focal length (even if they only give you the option of the standard 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, 135). Anything else would be inconceivable, and they know it. This is not like lens coding not being selectable in the firmware (which they argued had to be individually tuned for each Leica lens), this would make a lens completely unusable if it were not coded. I can't see Leica doing that.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Not everyone would like the magnification, some like to see what is outside the frame - anticipating the action to move into the frame at the right moment or to adjust framing to catch the action. May also depend on if one shoots with both eyes open or one open, one closed.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I'm with LJL on the frameline issue. Electronic framelines, using an LCD instead of that tiny, delicate-to-make metal finder mask (assuming LCDs have enough contrast now) would make a lot of sense -- more versatile and less expensive to manufacture. Taking this step would eliminate not only the metal mask itself, but the frameline-selecting mechanism, the linkage that moves the mask for parallax compensation, and all the adjustments needed for those two subassemblies. It also would finally put an end to the complaints that some of the framelines are too "sketchy" or interrupted (necessary because of the metal that holds the mask together between the slots.)

    But varying the magnification would require a completely new optical subsystem, basically a real-image finder with a zoom lens. Contax gave this a heck of a good try on the G1 and G2, but still encountered a lot of complaints about finder brightness (or lack of it) and small image size.

    The optical RF/VF assembly is arguably the crown jewel of the M Leica, and I think they'd be reluctant to throw that baby out with the bathwater.

    But... the existing RF/VF optics and electronic LCD framelines plus a digitally coupled rangefinder mechanism using a fine-pitch stepper to replace a lot of tiny cams and levers... now there you'd have a interesting proposition, keeping the look and precision of the Leica RF while eliminating a lot of manufacturing cost and adjustment complexity. I'm sure Leica would be too conservative to do something like that, though...

  41. #91
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    So is Leica just way better at keeping secrets than other companies, or is this just a bunch of wishful thinking? Or maybe something will be announced on 9/9/09 to be shipped some time before 2012 (ie end of the world)? I find it hard to believe that a company could keep something like this under wraps so late into development.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

    1) Be full frame 24x36 and

    2) Not need additional IR cut filters and

    3) Be in the M8 form factor body and

    4) Probably use the same battery as the M8 and

    5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by stevem8 View Post
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    So is Leica just way better at keeping secrets than other companies, or is this just a bunch of wishful thinking? Or maybe something will be announced on 9/9/09 to be shipped some time before 2012 (ie end of the world)? I find it hard to believe that a company could keep something like this under wraps so late into development.
    It's wishful thinking... Did you guys know that in Germany they celebrate April's fools in September (I believe the correct day is September 9th)...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Leica needs a product that is bread and butter money. Need a constant seller that brings in lots of revenue at low costs to the consumers to maintain there advanced line of gear and keep the company cash flow going at all times. Just like their sport optics has kept the company afloat with a nice sales record. They need something on the camera side that does the same thing. 4/3rds or the 1k or less camera system is the ticket for them. The M9 and S2 are expensive items that will only enjoy sales to a limited number.
    I sort of agree with Guy, I've often said if Canon or Nikon could make a real digital rangefinder, even with a 4/3 sensor that sells for less than 2k with a decent normal, wide angle (or 2 or 3) and a couple of longer portrait type lenses they would sell like hotcakes. I like having my eye attached to the rangefinder viewfinder and not holding the camera out at arms length trying to compose and\or focus with a s**ty little LCD.

    Of course Zeiss made a stab at it with the new Ikon and I don't know how successful that camera was so maybe I'm barking up a tree, but I believe if Leica could do something similar having the Leica name plate affixed would make a difference - if priced smartly below the 2k price. No autofocus, no zooms, perhaps body IS and it need not be that small. Maybe a body sort of like a Canon G10 with a real viewfinder and inter-changeable fixed focal length lenses.

    Just my opinion. I'll continue to have hope.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I was thinking to keep 1 M8 because of the crop factor, which I sometimes do like - (plus I had sold my 135mm lens)
    Now if Leica wants to do us a favor they could just include a setting in the M9with UVIR- without UVIR) and include the cyan correction for those why use UVIR filters and want to keep them on their lenses.
    Just a thought.

    One other option would be to use certain lenses on the M8 (with filters) and others just on the M9.

    The other question is if one would really use a backup M8 much if one owns a M9. Probably not really.



    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Here is a question for the M8/8.2 owners/M9 wanters.....let's imagine the M9 makes it to the streets in a month or so, or later; further, let's imagine it will be 36x24mm (full frame 35mm), or even as is suggested, 30x20mm (1.2x crop, which is not all that far from the present 1.3x crop of the M8/8.2 model); further, it will accept all the present M lenses, etc......what are folks thinking about with respect to getting the M9 yet keeping their M8/8.2 as a second or back-up camera? How are you thinking about the UV//IR filter issue? Plan on carrying a little folder of various UV/IR filters to swap on an off lenses whenever you switch bodies? How convenient is that going to be for many?

    Sure, it is not much of an issue, as most M8/8.2 owners already have filters, so no added cost, but now it becomes more of the extra equipment to carry, not to mention what differences may exist in color profiles when going to process things later. None of this may be an issue, but I just started thinking about that aspect, and wonder what others thought. Would folks start to ditch their M8/8.2 bodies, or keep them and live with the ongoing UV/IR filter hassle? Yeah, almost all of us would prefer shooting without those pesky and expensive filters, so would many just stop shooting the M8/8.2 once they got the M9 that would not need those filters anymore? Use the M8/8.2 for B/W or IR shooting mostly? Dump the M8/8.2 and try to dump the filters also? (Leica sure cleaned up on selling those puppies to most of us, and now they would become a bit more obsolete for all but those keeping and using the M8/8.2 body. Feeling a bit more burned now? I am.)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Woody I know you have been in this business and was not sure of the true output size of the wafer. Thanks for inputting that but I know you know what I was getting at with waste it could be cut up between the two sizes to save costs.
    I much prefer the rangefinder because it is in the midle of the image and I can compose and focus at the same time.
    I also have the feeling (from my Hy6 or my Nikon) that my eyes are more precise than a focus confirmation lamp.
    So I really see no need for it - other if you wanted to be able to use non-M-lenses on the M9. Maybe R-lenses?

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Am I the only one who would like the M9 to be just like the M8, only without need for UVIR filter, with ff-sensor, a little better 1250 ISO, maybe include 80 ISO, quit shutter as the M8.2 but sync time as the M8, and the wish that the exposure time is shown in the viewfinder (just like in A-Mode) when you use manual exposure.
    Maybe make it a little more weather resistant.
    Please Leica dont overload this camera with additional electronic functions.
    Please dont make it an all metal-G1 with red dot or anything like that.

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    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    In a dSLR the light is routed to AF sensor via a sub-mirror, so how do we get the light to the AF sensor in a M9? And we know the CCD won't be turned on with contrast AF like a digicam due to heat build up. The idea sounds interesting, but technically it sounds quite challenging. I'd like to Build-To-Order options of .72 and/or .85 viewfinder magnification. I'd also like to see the diopter adjustment built into the M body. My eyes vary day by day, some days I need more diopter adjustment, other days less.
    It could take focus confirmation off the current rangefinder mechanism. It would not be more accurate, but as the current RF mechanism is a magnitude more accurate than any AF system that would not be a problem. But it sure would rule out user error and eliminate a lot of "misfocussing" threads on LUF.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    It's wishful thinking... Did you guys know that in Germany they celebrate April's fools in September (I believe the correct day is September 9th)...
    Then they are pulling the joke on a lot of their key dealers all over the world.

    Why keep it a secret? Perhaps to avoid undermining sales of existing M8.2 inventory ... and to keep from stealing the energy of the S2 launch.

    They would have nothing to gain by pre-announcing a M9 ... the only competition they have is their own existing inventory. Pre-announcements are designed to keep people from buying another brand in anticipation of a possible better solution ... there is no other brand, just their own camera.

    Just give me a full frame and useable ISO to 1600 ... and the ability to compensate exposure without multiple steps in a menu ... leave everything else alone. Oh, and skip the black paint please. Black chrome, and a good grip leather please ... I like to actually use my Ms not just look at them

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Great thread...........would'nt it be easier though just to stay with a tried and tested DSLR!

    Some of us can remember these sort of arguments when SLR film cameras took over as the favoured pro tool formerly the province of the rangefinder. Only Leica RF's survived that massive exodus to sanity! It was circa late 50's early 60's I think.

    A Leica user friend of mine sold all his DMR and R glass to switch to the M8 some years ago. When I last saw him he reckoned that his bag of two M8's, and six lenses which he needed to replace his zoom R lenses was just as heavy as his R9/DMR plus a few zoom lenses!

    He was looking for another used DMR system as he missed the flexibility of his zoom lenses! BTW he said he needed two M8's as one of 'em was usually away for repair!
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