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Thread: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Not everyone shoots like that. I am happy with a 35 and a 75, and I rarely bring a second body. And as a former DMR owner, I would be surprised if 2 m8's and six lenses weighed more than the dmr and two zooms. The DMR was a beast. And for what it's worth, my M8 has been rock solid since the day I bought it, while my first DMR broke after 8000 pictures, then came back still broken after a month in the shop, was then replaced, the replacement was broken on day 1, and only after another 2 weeks did it finally keep working for 2 years. Then one day it just decided to stop working while I was shooting from a helicopter. That was the last straw for me.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I still see the main advantages of a rangefinder in fast and accurate focus specially for normal and wide angle lenses, bright viewfinder, no blackout when you take the image, very responsive, IMO it is smaller and lighter, less vibration for handholding long exposure times, unobstrusive, you see not only the image but also a little bit outside the frame.


    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    Great thread...........would'nt it be easier though just to stay with a tried and tested DSLR!

    Some of us can remember these sort of arguments when SLR film cameras took over as the favoured pro tool formerly the province of the rangefinder. Only Leica RF's survived that massive exodus to sanity! It was circa late 50's early 60's I think.

    A Leica user friend of mine sold all his DMR and R glass to switch to the M8 some years ago. When I last saw him he reckoned that his bag of two M8's, and six lenses which he needed to replace his zoom R lenses was just as heavy as his R9/DMR plus a few zoom lenses!

    He was looking for another used DMR system as he missed the flexibility of his zoom lenses! BTW he said he needed two M8's as one of 'em was usually away for repair!

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    .... and you see not only the image but also a little bit outside the frame.
    Well, that does not really set it apart from the DMR...
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Well, that does not really set it apart from the DMR...
    yes, by the way I still think the DMR to deliever the best IQ besides Medium format.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The DMR had the best color and tonal range in any of the 35mm world. Very simple reason CCD sensor and no AA. Still no other 35mm has that combo and it flourishes in MF. Main reason I went MF was their was nothing beyond the DMR like that except MF. My biggest blunder was selling the DMR for more the M8 stuff which I liked a lot but the DMR was the better tool for me. I will give this post the dead horse award since I blew it on that one. At least i woke up and moved up. That does not mean i did not like the M8 certainly did just the wrong tool for me in the long run.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I think rangefinders might work good for some people and not so good for others.
    I have used a M6 for many years, bought an R6 one day and sold it 4 weeks later.
    Today I use the M8 more than I use my Nikon dslr.
    I cant even tell why I get along so good with rangefinder, but it just does work for me. And maybe it just does not work for others.

    I enjoy MF as well, but personally I wouldnt give up the M8 and just use MF.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    yes, by the way I still think the DMR to deliever the best IQ besides Medium format.
    I couldn't agree more. I only regret I was late to the party.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The form and setup of your kit will always be most influenced by your subject matter and preferences . This should drive the decisions on whats best. For street(first) and travel(second) I haven t been able to beat the M series. Two bodies and 6 lenses (per venue) is about right. I cut down to 4 lenses each time I go out. Its light,fast and produces all the IQ I need for the subject matter. I can shoot sports with good success up to the 135mm but thats it .

    The M9 could have several really important improvements. The FF will be great but I really have a kit that covers from(16-135mm) 21-180mm FOV...almost perfectly (costs a lot but with the 21/1.4 I am there). I am worried a bit about loosing the 180mmFOV and mixing an M8 with and M9 may not create a consistent look in the images . (M people are never completely happy !)

    Better ISO performance is my highest priority. Beyond 320 you start to loose too much IQ . 640 is definitely useable ...but 1250 sucks IMHO unless you plan to work with the noise(as a grain look) and 2500 requires some post processing magic. One more stop gives you 1/60 at 1.4 under street lights or maybe the ability to use a 2.8 lens braced by something. This is what I have with the D3/D700 which for me has a 2EV advantage over the M8 .

    My 2nd priority which I don t think I will get is weather sealing...I shoot in the rain,snow and by the ocean . Sometimes the M8 is left home because of the weather... sometimes I risk it. The best light is often right before or after a storm.

    Agree on the ability to easily adjust exposure compensation as a must.....don t think I will get that either.

    The larger sensor 18MP will seal the deal as it should be a step function up in IQ..I would really hope that they would get us to 16bit as that seems to be the DMR s advantage over the M8 and you can easily see the improvement in dynamic range and color saturation(I have a DMR).

    Now if I was into large fine art prints ,commercial shoots,weddings,architecture,sports ...I would look to MF for image quality and DSLR for speed,flash,long lenses etc.

    A new M9 with the rumored specification would be a big improvement ..but if you need a DSLR or MF for the type of work you do most ...???

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Roger - How do you lose 180mm? Cropping a full-frame image to 1.33x puts you right back where you are with the M8's crop's, so I don't understand how'd you be losing anything compared to what we have with the M8. I totally agree with you regarding some degree of weather sealing. It's scary that a rain drop can roll off the case, under the power button and seep into the camera body.

    Overall I like the M8 how it is. I don't want to see it get complicated with EVF's or electronic frame lines. If I want features, buttons and high levels of customization - then I'll buy / use a dSLR. What I like most about the M8 is its simplicity and directness. More MP, maybe full-frame, same sharpness, better ISO, 16-bit DNGs and maybe some other minor tweaks, and I'm happy. A nicely paced evolution into a full-frame M9 is about my pace.

    The Micro 4/3's solution is probably a good platform for some of these other ideas - like EVF type framing. A well thought out 4/3's body that can accept M lenses directly could be a very nice addition to the M8/M9 as a second body / back up. I'm not sure if I'd like using a 90 APO cropped to 2X for an effective 180mm FOV, but then again, I might like that option. With sensor stabilization that could be a very intriguing option.

    I'm also wondering if we'll see the Visoflex make a return as the R lens solution. That's probably not as slick of a solution as some people would like, but I get a kick out of the Visoflex III. It's a bit frankenstein in its execution, but it amuses me.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The DMR had the best color and tonal range in any of the 35mm world. Very simple reason CCD sensor and no AA.
    Okay, I admit I'm straying off-topic a bit, but I have a question about this.

    Given that we accept the proposition that anti-aliasing (AA) filters are bad for color, tonal range, detail, etc., and that consequently less AA filtering is better, and no AA filtering is best of all... then why do Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic, etc., etc., insist on including them in so many of their camera designs?

    Is it because:

    -- They're stupid? ("Whoa, duh, I'm gonna design in this thing that makes my camera take bad pitchers, and then I'm gonna stick my finger in this electric socket...")

    -- They're part of an evil conspiracy? ("Bwah-hah-hah, we'll include an AA filter in our expensive DSLR so people's pictures will be all mushy and off-color, and they'll think it's the lens, and then they'll go out and buy our new expensive lenses! And then we'll foreclose the Widow Jones' mortgage and take her farm! Hahahahaha!")

    -- They're wimps? ("Oooh, I wish I were a rugged, hairy-chested manly man, the kind who likes huntin' and fishin' and cold baths and can take his aliasing without flinching. But I'm just a 98-pound weakling wussy-pussy, so I'm going to design an AA filter into my new camera.")

    Or is it possibly that AA filters have their place? I know, I shouldn't have said it, but I hang around in the gutters and dark alleys of the photography world, where twisted souls who have turned their back on the Gospel of Solms whisper perverted heresies of this sort... I was going to enumerate a few, but was afraid of shocking the kiddies...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Not having an AA filter is like walking around without knickers. Takes a special person and a little getting used to.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    "...insist on including them in so many of their camera designs?..."

    Because these cameras/systems are designed to deliver high IQ out of the camera (mostly JPGs), that's why they spend millions on image processing, filter algorithms... It's convenient for the amateurs and fast for the press-photographers.

    Without AA-filters, moire can appear and has to be removed manually in the RAW-converter. But WHEN it appears, no crucial information is lost during this process that would have been captured WITH an AA-filter.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The big upside of an AA filter is that the slight blurring allows the raw editors to scrub the noise better. Additionally, the AA filter suppresses moire and reduces the likelihood of false color artifacts. I do not like AA filters, but admittedly they do have their benefits. In my experience they rob us of sharpness and in turn we apply sharpening which leads to a digital, artificial look. Once you've seen the "native" acuity of a non-AA'd sensor, it's very difficult to accept the AA look / results (at least IMO).

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I know a number of the Nikon pro s have had the AA filters taken off their sensors to improve acuity . But I have never heard the downside of doing so. The AA filter explains the sharpness and the CCD /16bit the dynamic range and color saturation? Is that correct?

    No one seems to be talking about 16bit and thats what appears to separate the M8 from the DMR. And its in the spec for the S2.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The images are still very sharp...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Without AA-filters, moire can appear and has to be removed manually in the RAW-converter. But WHEN it appears, no crucial information is lost during this process that would have been captured WITH an AA-filter.
    Well, I really don't want to hijack this thread into being about AA filters, but I ain't buyin' that one!

    The reason for my skepticism is that at work I use a medium-format back that lacks an AA filter. When you get moires -- which you inevitably do when you photograph fabrics or printed materials with halftone dot screens -- you're supposed to remove them via the manufacturer's software, which includes about two dozen different AA filter routines.

    None of them work as well as a DSLR with a properly-designed hardware AA filter. Crucial information is always lost (which is one reason I only use this back when I absolutely have to.)

    I wish I'd saved a technical whitepaper I downloaded a few years ago, when the M8 first appeared and this less-is-better notion about AA filters began circulating widely among photographers. It was put out by a maker of AA filters (obviously they'd have an incentive to lie, of course, but their argument was very logical and the technical details were plausible.)

    Among the points made were that an AA filter isn't simply a "blurring" filter -- it uses birefringent crystals to cut off too-high spatial frequencies with negligible effect on lower ones, preventing aliasing from occuring in the first place. The best that software solutions can do is blur the aliasing after it occurs -- and since the software has no way of knowing which structures are aliasing and which are actually present in the image, inevitably it has to compromise detail. Medical analogy: the AA filter is preventive medicine that keeps the aliasing "disease" from occurring, while software is an after-the-fact remedy that can only mask the symptoms. That's been my practical experience with my non-AA back, too.

    Another point is that one form of aliasing is "false resolution," which causes an image to appear to have fine details that aren't actually present in the original subject. It's been speculated that this is actually what photographers are seeing when they say their camera produces "sharper, crisper" images after the AA filter has been removed.

    Counterpoint: After my original post, I got a private reply from another member who wishes to remain in stealth mode, suggesting that while AA filters do a better job than software of handling moires, they do so at the expense of color purity -- they muddy up fine nuances of color. That I can believe. I can imagine that people who say their non-AA cameras give "more detail" might well be seeing color detail rather than luminance detail. And that would explain why people for whom finely nuanced color is very important -- landscapists and catalog shooters come to mind -- would prefer minimal AA filtering. (Natural landscapes probably contain few potential sources of moire, and catalogs are shot under controlled conditions where you can manage the problem at the source.)

    That's still not the same as saying "less is better, and none would be best of all." It's a question of which image characteristics are top priority for you. But I'll concede that for some people, ditching the AA filter might be the best answer, even if that's not for quite the reason they think it is.


    And now we'd better be getting back to arguing about the desirability of various potential feature sets for the M9 vaporcam...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    It's not vaporware...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    The degree and frequency of moire is influenced by pixel pitch. As the pixel pitch gets tighter and tighter, moire is less of an issue. A 1Ds3 has a very similar pixel pitch as a Phase One P45, so you could (conceivably) photograph an offending fabric with both cameras at the same distance, same focal length and gauge how much the AA filter is helping or not.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Well if the vaporcam has some sort of electronic focus assist, then I am interested, but sadly, I JUST CAN'T focus a straight rangefinder anymore.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Riccis,

    If the M9 isn't vaporware, could you please tell us where we can order one. Just the name of a dealer would be fine. Thanks,

    Steve

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Okay, I admit I'm straying off-topic a bit, but I have a question about this.... Or is it possibly that AA filters have their place?
    They certainly have their place. They're at their best in a production environment, i.e., mass production, such as sports/news photographers who don't have the luxury of time to check & fix each of their hundreds or thousands of photos for aliasing artifacts, likewise for the casual happy snappers who can't be bothered with anything other than out-of-the-camera jpgs.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Riccis,

    If the M9 isn't vaporware, could you please tell us where we can order one. Just the name of a dealer would be fine. Thanks,

    Steve
    Sorry, you'll have to wait until September for that...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Well, I really don't want to hijack this thread into being about AA filters, but I ain't buyin' that one!

    The reason for my skepticism is that at work I use a medium-format back that lacks an AA filter. When you get moires -- which you inevitably do when you photograph fabrics or printed materials with halftone dot screens -- you're supposed to remove them via the manufacturer's software, which includes about two dozen different AA filter routines.

    None of them work as well as a DSLR with a properly-designed hardware AA filter. Crucial information is always lost (which is one reason I only use this back when I absolutely have to.)

    I wish I'd saved a technical whitepaper I downloaded a few years ago, when the M8 first appeared and this less-is-better notion about AA filters began circulating widely among photographers. It was put out by a maker of AA filters (obviously they'd have an incentive to lie, of course, but their argument was very logical and the technical details were plausible.)

    Among the points made were that an AA filter isn't simply a "blurring" filter -- it uses birefringent crystals to cut off too-high spatial frequencies with negligible effect on lower ones, preventing aliasing from occuring in the first place. The best that software solutions can do is blur the aliasing after it occurs -- and since the software has no way of knowing which structures are aliasing and which are actually present in the image, inevitably it has to compromise detail. Medical analogy: the AA filter is preventive medicine that keeps the aliasing "disease" from occurring, while software is an after-the-fact remedy that can only mask the symptoms. That's been my practical experience with my non-AA back, too.

    Another point is that one form of aliasing is "false resolution," which causes an image to appear to have fine details that aren't actually present in the original subject. It's been speculated that this is actually what photographers are seeing when they say their camera produces "sharper, crisper" images after the AA filter has been removed.

    Counterpoint: After my original post, I got a private reply from another member who wishes to remain in stealth mode, suggesting that while AA filters do a better job than software of handling moires, they do so at the expense of color purity -- they muddy up fine nuances of color. That I can believe. I can imagine that people who say their non-AA cameras give "more detail" might well be seeing color detail rather than luminance detail. And that would explain why people for whom finely nuanced color is very important -- landscapists and catalog shooters come to mind -- would prefer minimal AA filtering. (Natural landscapes probably contain few potential sources of moire, and catalogs are shot under controlled conditions where you can manage the problem at the source.)

    That's still not the same as saying "less is better, and none would be best of all." It's a question of which image characteristics are top priority for you. But I'll concede that for some people, ditching the AA filter might be the best answer, even if that's not for quite the reason they think it is.


    And now we'd better be getting back to arguing about the desirability of various potential feature sets for the M9 vaporcam...

    The real bottom line is if canon and Nikon ditched there AA filters and people where getting Moire which they will. Just do the math on this it maybe 10,000 people screaming and yelling about it. Just think what that PR would do. I'm dead serious here folks they build complaint proof camera's or as little issues as they can and one reason there are so many controls because Freddy wants 51 AF points even though he has no clue what to do with them. Hope you get my point here but they build to reduce any issues and bad PR. Also it' is easier for noise control because it basically smears it
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Well Apple is having a media event on the 9th.


    "All Things Digital reports that Apple has scheduled a media event for Wednesday, September 9th in San Francisco."

    Perhaps they are going to announce that they have bought Leica and are releasing the iCamera.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    Sorry, you'll have to wait until September for that...
    Ok Riccis ..I know where you live! You would be one of the first people I would give an M9 to if I was Leica. Are the odds good that I can see yours in September. LOL Roger

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Ok Riccis ..I know where you live! You would be one of the first people I would give an M9 to if I was Leica. Are the odds good that I can see yours in September. LOL Roger
    Thank you, man... I can't complain about how great Leica has been to me... Definitely see me in September

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Riccis,
    mind if I swing by to take a look at your vaporcam? I live closer to you that any of these other guys....
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The real bottom line is if canon and Nikon ditched there AA filters and people where getting Moire which they will. Just do the math on this it maybe 10,000 people screaming and yelling about it. Just think what that PR would do. I'm dead serious here folks they build complaint proof camera's or as little issues as they can...
    Being someone who shoots in large batches, sometimes has to get the results out in a hurry, and doesn't need any more "issues" added to my life, I guess I'm one of those people who prefers a complaint-proof camera!

    I just haven't got the patience to go through each image from an 800-frame take deciding which of two dozen convolution kernels will do the least-mediocre job of blurring out moires that didn't need to be there in the first place (which is exactly what I have to do at work when I need to shoot with the Fuji GX680; fortunately, the software won't accommodate 800 frames in a batch, so the problem is manageable!)

    Guess I'll have to leave the subtle wonderfulness of aliasing to the cognoscenti who can appreciate it. Maybe it's like "Leica Glow" -- if you've gotta ask, you don't get it...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Riccis,
    mind if I swing by to take a look at your vaporcam? I live closer to you that any of these other guys....
    He won't let you see it -- he's keeping it in a box guarded by Schrödinger's Cat!

    They both exist in an indeterminate state until September 9. At that point, the vapor either condenses into a tangible Leica M9, or it doesn't. Either way, the cat is then out of the box AND out of the bag, if you take my meaning...

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Being someone who shoots in large batches, sometimes has to get the results out in a hurry, and doesn't need any more "issues" added to my life, I guess I'm one of those people who prefers a complaint-proof camera!

    I just haven't got the patience to go through each image from an 800-frame take deciding which of two dozen convolution kernels will do the least-mediocre job of blurring out moires that didn't need to be there in the first place (which is exactly what I have to do at work when I need to shoot with the Fuji GX680; fortunately, the software won't accommodate 800 frames in a batch, so the problem is manageable!)

    Guess I'll have to leave the subtle wonderfulness of aliasing to the cognoscenti who can appreciate it. Maybe it's like "Leica Glow" -- if you've gotta ask, you don't get it...

    Really if you think about the nightmare they would have to deal with they figure make it as bullet proof as possible without issues. That has been working for them even though we complain about having the AA filter it is far less than if it was Moire issues. Honestly like you said people don't want to deal with that. Leica decided it was after IQ and that is why they use CCD and no AA filters. But try and tell all those Canon and Nikon shooters that. LOL
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Plus, all the dSLR makers use AA filters, so it's an accepted norm. We're grading and comparing them relative to one and another - it's sort of like grading on the curve

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Leica decided it was after IQ and that is why they use CCD and no AA filters. But try and tell all those Canon and Nikon shooters that.
    Yeah, don't do that -- some of them might say that Leica was really after compatibility with legacy lenses, and the IQ argument was just an attempt to turn necessity into a virtue. They might even contrast the M8's DxOMark score (59.4) with those of, say, the Canon 1DS Mk III (80.3) or Nikon D3x (88) re who's really after image quality and who isn't.

    And of course that would be missing the whole point, so let's not bring it up!

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    LOL . Several years ago I told Leica they get out of CCD and No AA filters than they would certainly lose me as a customer. I just love CCD sensors. Well they did lose me since I went to MF but i still support there CCD and no AA filters and I still like the M8 and DMR. To bad the DMR just did not have a bigger sensor at the time , might have changed a few things for me than. If this M9 comes out it certainly may have some horsepower to it
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Yeah, don't do that -- some of them might say that Leica was really after compatibility with legacy lenses, and the IQ argument was just an attempt to turn necessity into a virtue. They might even contrast the M8's DxOMark score (59.4) with those of, say, the Canon 1DS Mk III (80.3) or Nikon D3x (88) re who's really after image quality and who isn't.

    And of course that would be missing the whole point, so let's not bring it up!
    What's your purpose here? Is it to tell us that our preferences are wrong? I don't care what the mass market prefers, I'm more concerned about what works for me.

    One thing I know is that the gallery owner I visited with last week was struck by the color quality and detail of my larger prints. Before our meeting he cautioned me that he already represents several wildlife photographers so unless I had something really breathtaking he probably wouldn't be very interested. His gallery also represents several other photographers including one of Canon's Explorers of Light. At the end of our meeting he selected several of my photos for display in the gallery - all made with the DMR. YMMV.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Rant ON:
    Oh please I can't hear that my DMR and M8 are so much better than my Canon or Nikon with the bad and evil AA Filter. This is only what some people here want to see, nothing more. Perhaps a selected group can see the difference in a file at 100%, but once edited and printed at let's say 16x24 or 20x30 99% of all people can't tell a ***** difference. Or do you really think you can tell the difference if you don't know who shot it or if there is a label on the side. I am pretty sure you can't the same way people can't really hear the difference between a audio cable which costs 1000$ compared to one which costs 5000$. However everybody who ones the expensive cable, hears this great difference. Until you do a real blind test) And before somebody starts, I have a MFDB, a Canon, a M8 and shot with a DMR for some time , so i know all files pretty well and I would not bet my name on beeing able to see the difference at reasonable print sizes.

    Rant OFF:

    I really don't mind AA filter that much, and I wouldn't mind a M9 with a CMOS and AA filter, but for example nice ISO up to 6400 or even higher. That would be fantastic. Working with a 1.2 lens at these ISO speeds at night. However I know that won't happen so I will be happy with a M9, a CCD sensor and usable ISO 800 ^^

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Christopher
    I dont know if I could see a difference in a direct comparison in each and every shot.
    But I feel that if I browse through my photos which have been made with different systems (M8, Nikon DSLR and Sinar MF) often those few images where you would say wow because of crispness, texture, depth but still with smooth tonal transitions are either from the M8 or the Sinar. I have some images which I like a lot from my Nikon as well but in somre arease I feel I can see where an AA filter could "cost" some of the texture of skin for example.
    The other thing is that I have allways felt that sharpening is adding something to images which has not been in it before and I feel the less I need to sharpen the more natural and non-digital images look.
    This is all just my impression.




    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Rant ON:
    Oh please I can't hear that my DMR and M8 are so much better than my Canon or Nikon with the bad and evil AA Filter. This is only what some people here want to see, nothing more. Perhaps a selected group can see the difference in a file at 100%, but once edited and printed at let's say 16x24 or 20x30 99% of all people can't tell a ***** difference. Or do you really think you can tell the difference if you don't know who shot it or if there is a label on the side. I am pretty sure you can't the same way people can't really hear the difference between a audio cable which costs 1000$ compared to one which costs 5000$. However everybody who ones the expensive cable, hears this great difference. Until you do a real blind test) And before somebody starts, I have a MFDB, a Canon, a M8 and shot with a DMR for some time , so i know all files pretty well and I would not bet my name on beeing able to see the difference at reasonable print sizes.

    Rant OFF:

    I really don't mind AA filter that much, and I wouldn't mind a M9 with a CMOS and AA filter, but for example nice ISO up to 6400 or even higher. That would be fantastic. Working with a 1.2 lens at these ISO speeds at night. However I know that won't happen so I will be happy with a M9, a CCD sensor and usable ISO 800 ^^

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Rant ON:
    Oh please I can't hear that my DMR and M8 are so much better than my Canon or Nikon with the bad and evil AA Filter. This is only what some people here want to see, nothing more. Perhaps a selected group can see the difference in a file at 100%, but once edited and printed at let's say 16x24 or 20x30 99% of all people can't tell a ***** difference. Or do you really think you can tell the difference if you don't know who shot it or if there is a label on the side. I am pretty sure you can't the same way people can't really hear the difference between a audio cable which costs 1000$ compared to one which costs 5000$. However everybody who ones the expensive cable, hears this great difference. Until you do a real blind test) And before somebody starts, I have a MFDB, a Canon, a M8 and shot with a DMR for some time , so i know all files pretty well and I would not bet my name on beeing able to see the difference at reasonable print sizes.

    Rant OFF:

    I really don't mind AA filter that much, and I wouldn't mind a M9 with a CMOS and AA filter, but for example nice ISO up to 6400 or even higher. That would be fantastic. Working with a 1.2 lens at these ISO speeds at night. However I know that won't happen so I will be happy with a M9, a CCD sensor and usable ISO 800 ^^
    Not me. They have got to get the useable ISO over 800. 640 has been the limit so far IMHO. And the M8's 640 has been touted as conservative .... being more like 800 ... which I lean toward believing. I am hoping for a really solid 1250, but 1600 would be better!

    Also, more intermediate steps would be welcome. Jumping from 320 to 640 to 1250 doesn't provide enough quick control. I use ISO 500, 1000 a lot with my DSLRs.

    BTW, they need a smaller TTL bounce flash for the M digitals. How hard can that be these days? A slight bit of well controlled diffused fill goes a long way in helping ISO performance and controlling shutter speeds against subject movement in low light.

    But if the strong rumors are true, then the full frame M9 camera is already done ... and I'll take it warts and all . I've been saving my Lincolns, Jeffersons and a lot of Benjamins in readiness. This is the ONLY new camera that is a must have for me. I cannot hack lugging pro DSLRs around for 8 hours at a wedding anymore ... which would include not lugging a S2 even if I could even afford one. The M digital is my "relief camera" for candid work. The better it gets, the more I can use it.

    BTW, that the M9 is coming seems pretty certain. However, I've heard different timings for the launch. Hope it is September, with delivery in early Oct. But I also have heard speculation it would be announced in late October (maybe Photo-Plus?) with delivery end of November or early December. We'll see.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Christopher
    I dont know if I could see a difference in a direct comparison in each and every shot.
    But I feel that if I browse through my photos which have been made with different systems (M8, Nikon DSLR and Sinar MF) often those few images where you would say wow because of crispness, texture, depth but still with smooth tonal transitions are either from the M8 or the Sinar. I have some images which I like a lot from my Nikon as well but in somre arease I feel I can see where an AA filter could "cost" some of the texture of skin for example.
    The other thing is that I have allways felt that sharpening is adding something to images which has not been in it before and I feel the less I need to sharpen the more natural and non-digital images look.
    This is all just my impression.
    I can also easily pick out the M8 shots when they are mixed in with my Nikon DSLR and Sony work. Same for when I used 1 series Canons. Those differences are retained when printing BTW.

    When I shoot weddings, all files from all cameras, as well as my second shooter's Canon 5D cameras, are dumped into one file and sorted by "time shot" to place them in chronological order. The M8 shots jump out at you.

    The M8 pics have a certain look, rich color separation and a certain contrast snap .... which becomes even more apparent when B&W conversions are made .... probably equally as much to do with the lenses as the camera.

    The exception to this is B&W conversions made from the D3X with the newer glass. Unlike my Sony A900, and the Canon 1DsMKIII before it, the Nikon renders midtones in a very similar manner to the M8 which provides a very pleasing B&W contrast range with that deep shadow black and white whites even while holding detail in both. This experience makes me suspect that the D3X's AA filter is weaker than the one that was in my 1DsMKIII.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Regarding AA-filters or not, here the purely scientific point-of-view (I'll hope my English doens't cause more irritation than before;-):

    - We have a 6µm-pixel-pitch-sensor (like todays Dalsa, Kodak and Sony-sensors) which means the max. frequency this kind of sensor is capable to resolve is 83 linepairs/mm (Nyquist: you need two pixels to resolve one linepair or one pixel for each line) - there is absolutely no way such a sensor will be able to resolve more than that, it's simply impossible

    - Whenever a higher frequency (>83lp/mm) "hits" this sensor, false information is created (alaising) which may look like real information due to simple test charts and tricky processing (jsut look how often dpreview claims lpph beyond Nyquist!) but it isn't, with a bayer-filtered/color-interpolating system it's even worse, it becomes this really nasty "colorful" moire we all fear!

    - To avoid alaising, the contrast at the max. frequency (83lp/mm) has to be zero! So the S2-sensor with 7500pixels wideness will never be able to actually resolve 7500lines/3750linepairs!

    - AA-filters blur the image, the actual design/manufacturing might be tricky, but the principle/goal is simple: reduce contrast at Nyquist-limit to zero, while not affecting lower frequencies (steep). Sadly, that's impossible with any low-pass-filter in the world, they ALWAYS reduce contrast below nyquist and that's their downside! This information is lost forever and - despite common believe - cannot be restored with any kind postprocessing/sharpening (only simple structures as lines/borders may appear that way)!
    In fact, that's why all AA-filters are a compromise, they don't suppress contrast to zero (at Nyquist) to reduce the negative effect on lower frequencies, while still allowing a small amount of moire/alaising. Propably they've become better/steeper over time but the smaller pixel-pitches made it easier anyway, because the lenses have problems to deliver enough contrast up to Nyquist anway.

    - What is the solution to this problem?
    Oversampling! Build a sensor with many little photosites which is capable of resolving very high frequencies beyond the performance of the lenses, than downsample the image to the actual performance of the lenses. Professional video-cameras/scanners work that way.

    - Why is no AA-filter better regarding IQ?
    The high frequencies slightly below nyquist are not affected, enhancing microcontrast and information - impossible to retrieve by any post-processing! But when moire appears, it can be removed by the software/photographer WHERE it appears, of course much more work than just pressing one button but you can see and select moire and than remove it / make it invisible - an AA-filter always effects all images, everwhere! Of course the lost information cannot be retrieved but there isn't any information there in the AA-filtered-image, too!

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Oh please I can't hear that my DMR and M8 are so much better than my Canon or Nikon with the bad and evil AA Filter. This is only what some people here want to see, nothing more.
    Sorry Christopher, the gallery owner had never heard of the DMR and the color quality and detail of the prints jumped out at him. His response, not mine.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    So, to get slightly back on topic of the upcoming M9...

    To CCD or not to CCD. That is the question.

    Riccis?

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    He won't let you see it -- he's keeping it in a box guarded by Schrödinger's Cat!

    They both exist in an indeterminate state until September 9. At that point, the vapor either condenses into a tangible Leica M9, or it doesn't. Either way, the cat is then out of the box AND out of the bag, if you take my meaning...
    Different cats - the box one is an animal and the bag one is a whip - Oh- and the bag is red baize, so I don't get your meaning
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?


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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    What's your purpose here? Is it to tell us that our preferences are wrong?
    No, it's to reinforce that our preferences are exactly that, preferences.

    There's a certain tendency in the Leica world to act as if individual preferences were more than that -- more like natural law, or scientific fact, or historical inevitability, or destiny.

    But preferences -- I love those. If you want to tell me, "I prefer the look of my DMR images over Nikon D3x images because the colors and details look better to me," or "because my gallery owner finds them more salable," then I'm totally with you. If you want to say, "I prefer my M8 images to DSLR images because customers like them better," I'm on your team. If you want to say, "I don't know why, I just like them better," you have my applause.

    In fact, I can't afford NOT to stick up for unadorned individual preference. I'd prefer to watch ballet rather than football, which puts me at odds with 99.99% of the male population; I drive a 1974 Saab that looks like a sunburned aardvark; and my favorite camera/lens combo is an Epson R-D 1 with an adapted Canon 50mm f/0.95!

    In other words, my own preferences are so eccentric that I'm certainly not going to attack other people's... as long as we're clear that preferences are what we're talking about!

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Problem is that Herr Kauffman is good at Brett Favre speak!

    He also said at Photokina that the company would still support the R family and they announced that the R10 was for real.

    Less than a year later look what has happened vis a vis R products.

    Personally, although I am a leica fan, I wait for real news which means news of products that will be shipping within three months.


    JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    I'm with you Woody I like to hear real things. The rumors are fun but we deal with reality and frankly we need to look at real buy or not buy decisions and base our business or pleasure on facts.
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    He also said at Photokina that the company would still support the R family and they announced that the R10 was for real.

    Less than a year later look what has happened vis a vis R products.


    Woody
    Yeah, but you have to give them the luxury of changing their minds. Consider that at Photokina the world hadn't yet begun the headlong plunge into recession/depression.

    I remain convinced that Leica should have pursued an R10 instead of the S2, but they didn't and that's that! In either case, whether an R10 or the S2, they face a limited market. Whether it be competition with N,C,S for an R10 or limited numbers in the pro market for the S2, Leica has been a niche player for many years. If they could learn to live with limited new products, but maintain their reputation to many as the best in what they do, it might have and may, yet work.

    For what they're worth in the marketplace, my R lenses are worth hanging on to in the blind faith that there will, as promised, be "something coming along for them". But, that strategy involves another 'promise'!
    Roger
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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Roger - How do you lose 180mm? Cropping a full-frame image to 1.33x puts you right back where you are with the M8's crop's, so I don't understand how'd you be losing anything compared to what we have with the M8. I totally agree with you regarding some degree of weather sealing. It's scary that a rain drop can roll off the case, under the power button and seep into the camera body.

    Overall I like the M8 how it is. I don't want to see it get complicated with EVF's or electronic frame lines. If I want features, buttons and high levels of customization - then I'll buy / use a dSLR. What I like most about the M8 is its simplicity and directness. More MP, maybe full-frame, same sharpness, better ISO, 16-bit DNGs and maybe some other minor tweaks, and I'm happy. A nicely paced evolution into a full-frame M9 is about my pace.

    The Micro 4/3's solution is probably a good platform for some of these other ideas - like EVF type framing. A well thought out 4/3's body that can accept M lenses directly could be a very nice addition to the M8/M9 as a second body / back up. I'm not sure if I'd like using a 90 APO cropped to 2X for an effective 180mm FOV, but then again, I might like that option. With sensor stabilization that could be a very intriguing option.

    I'm also wondering if we'll see the Visoflex make a return as the R lens solution. That's probably not as slick of a solution as some people would like, but I get a kick out of the Visoflex III. It's a bit frankenstein in its execution, but it amuses me.
    You are of course correct..I hadn t thought about the extra MP would allow a lot more cropping. Hard though to give up the IQ in FF....nothing beats a larger sensor overall. OK Now I want FF right after the ISO.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Roger - which 135mm are you using? I've been think about the 2nd version elmarit w/ goggles (55mm Canadian), but have held off because I thought focusing would be hit or miss.

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    Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

    Well said sir.

    BTW - the "...sunburned ardvark" line? A classic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    No, it's to reinforce that our preferences are exactly that, preferences.

    There's a certain tendency in the Leica world to act as if individual preferences were more than that -- more like natural law, or scientific fact, or historical inevitability, or destiny.

    But preferences -- I love those. If you want to tell me, "I prefer the look of my DMR images over Nikon D3x images because the colors and details look better to me," or "because my gallery owner finds them more salable," then I'm totally with you. If you want to say, "I prefer my M8 images to DSLR images because customers like them better," I'm on your team. If you want to say, "I don't know why, I just like them better," you have my applause.

    In fact, I can't afford NOT to stick up for unadorned individual preference. I'd prefer to watch ballet rather than football, which puts me at odds with 99.99% of the male population; I drive a 1974 Saab that looks like a sunburned aardvark; and my favorite camera/lens combo is an Epson R-D 1 with an adapted Canon 50mm f/0.95!

    In other words, my own preferences are so eccentric that I'm certainly not going to attack other people's... as long as we're clear that preferences are what we're talking about!

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