The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

steflaurent974

Active member
I have pre-ordered a M9 to my european dealer. The price is 5500€, I have to choose between three colors (black, chrome, anthracite grey) and the dealer will only have ten !!!

It will be delivered at the end of september or early october ; and according to the dealer ( not so far from sSolms) the leica M9 IS a Full Frame 24X36 sensor with 18 MP.:thumbup:

We are now waiting for the full specification and pictures of the beast !
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
Carlos, that'd be cool if it all panned out. Panasonic says backlit sensors would get too hot if scaled up to 36x24mm... but maybe Sony knows something Pana doesn't.

Also, rather than Sony doing the whole shebang, I'd be perfectly happy with Cosina handling the mechanical part, as they do with the film Ikon. Most people I've heard from seem to be very happy with the Ikon's RF/VF unit. The quality of this component is key to the RF shooting experience, and it's a challenging-to-make piece with which Sony has no experience.

Either way, though -- and even if it's all only a dream -- this is still a more appealing dream for me than the Leica-branded dreams circulating elsewhere in the thread. I'm still a very avid Epson R-D 1 user -- for me the 1:1 viewfinder is a huge deal -- and I've felt for years that the same basic camera with a longer RF base, a higher pixel count, and a little more ISO range would be all I'd need for about 80% of my photography. (And it's looking more and more as if a Micro Four Thirds camera with an EVF and an M-adapter would cover the other 20%.) What you're describing sounds like exactly that camera...
Dave Farkas has dashed cold water on this whole ZI idea on LUF. Apparently Zeiss went on record stating to him that they decided that there would be no ZI DRF. It turned out to be impossible to produce one at a price that would be competitive to Leica, thus making the projected market share too small.
 

georgl

New member
It will be interesting to see how they solved the problem with oblique rays, stronger retrofocus-lenses (todays M-WA are non-symmetric because of the lightmeter, e.g. 3,4/21->2,8/21) don't really solve the problem because it would make older lenses incompatible and more demanding designs (like the new Summilux 21/24) impossible at this size and performance.

Most likely are new microlenses that slowly become available, because they are part of the problem. Sensors without them can deal with oblique rays much better (that's why MFDBs work so well with Rodenstock/Schneider-WA) but are also less sensitive.

I don't see how the new CMOS-technologies (like backlit or Exmor R) can solve these problems, because these are specific solutions to problems of CMOS-sensors. Their biggest disadvantage is their low fill-rate, which makes heavy post-processing necessary (which is quite easy with the integrated electronics of CMOS but makes IQ more problematic) that's why Sony and others try to position the non-light-sensitive parts of the area behind the light-sensitive parts. But CCDs don't really have this problem and I think the new 6µm-CCD-generation already has a fill-rate of over 80%!?
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Re: Leica M9 schedule for September 2009?

I have pre-ordered a M9 to my european dealer. The price is 5500€, I have to choose between three colors (black, chrome, anthracite grey) and the dealer will only have ten !!!

It will be delivered at the end of september or early october ; and according to the dealer ( not so far from Solms) the leica M9 IS a Full Frame 24X36 sensor with 18 MP.:thumbup:

We are now waiting for the full specification and pictures of the beast !
As Mr. Spock used to say on the old Star Trek TV show: "Interesting, if factual."

It still stretches my credulity to think that:

(a) They've really solved the problem of shallow flange distance on a 36x24mm sensor when other makers with much more sensor knowledge and bigger R&D budgets have not.

(b) That they actually are far enough along to deliver finished cameras by the end of September (which would almost certainly mean that component orders would have had to be placed, field testing completed, and publicity materials printed many months ago, and that actual production would be happening right now) without having made any announcement. Maybe they didn't want to steal the S2's thunder, but it still seems implausible.

On the other hand, I can't imagine that dealers would want to hack off good customers by taking deposits without being pretty sure they'd have something to deliver! True, habitual Leica buyers seem to be more tolerant than most (e.g. their willingness to go through the M8 "customer beta" phase) but on the other hand, they're also affluent, privileged-class people who aren't accustomed to being told "No, you can't have it"! So I'd think the dealers must be pretty convinced there's some fire behind all that smoke.



Maybe I'm just in an unusually euphoric mood (brought on by the thought of how cool an anthracite-gray M would look) but on this particular day it seems possible that such a camera might actually even sell beyond the M8 customer base of plutocrats, celebrity hobbyists, and Middle Eastern nobility. Although loyal M8 owners rationalize otherwise, the practical reality was that it was a dubious value proposition in terms of picture-taking capability, which is a polite way of saying you were being asked to pay a helluva lot of money for a 10-megapixel camera with mediocre high-ISO performance and lots of operational limitations.

If they can actually do it, an 18-megapixel M9 at 5500 euros (which is a nice, round US $ 7,777 at today's exchange rate) sounds a lot less crazy compared to what Nikon and Canon get for their top-end DSLRs.

Such a camera might be semi-reasonable enough to tempt mainstream photographers who could benefit from the "rangefinder aesthetic" ... especially now that Zeiss and Cosina offer lower-cost lens alternatives, and Micro Four Thirds provides a cheap way to get a "digital Visoflex" for occasional close-up or tele shooting with your M lenses.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"Hearsay" is defined as an out of court statement offered (as evidence) to prove the truth of the matter stated. Based on someone saying his or her "European dealer" said something, we're off on a frolic over the features the camera will have. I was told by an anonymous source that the M9 will have the same sensor as the mythical S2, that it will be available next Monday, and will sell for 7400 Euros. The downside is that it will not work on battery power, so will have to be shot tethered or with the optional 110/220 v. adapter. Let's wait til next week and see what transpires.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
On the sensor my bet would be the S2 since they will use really the same technology and Leica can get a better deal on buying many than compared to buying two separate sensor types. If someone did the math here on FF size with a 6 micron sensor and come up with a MPX . That would certainly help answer it given the rumor is 18 I believe
 

gero

New member
call it wish full thinking but an M9 AND a "visoflex" viewfinder for R lenses is what I would want because I couldn't afford to buy both an M9 & an R10 (and I'd rather have an M9 than an R10).
 
Last edited:

Riccis

New member
Those of you that have put your names in the list and have paid in full (assuming it is from an authorized dealer) are in for a treat (if the rumors are true, of course)... Just don't punish us with too many M9 cat images, please :D

Cheers,
 

Bébèrt

Member
My (respectable) Belgian Leice dealer just confirmed that there will be a relaese of a new M camera in september.
The new M (9 - 8.3 - ??) will coexist alongside the M8.2

No details however.
Just a serious price drop of the M8.2 and the end of life of the original M8.
 

John Black

Active member
On the sensor my bet would be the S2 since they will use really the same technology and Leica can get a better deal on buying many than compared to buying two separate sensor types. If someone did the math here on FF size with a 6 micron sensor and come up with a MPX . That would certainly help answer it given the rumor is 18 I believe
Rotating on the S2 sensor such that 30mm becomes the "long side" on the M9, it results in 16.67 MP in 30mm x 20mm size which is ~1.2x crop. I know for some that nothing less than full-frame will do. For me, 1.2x crop would be just fine. The only wrinkle in the 1.2x crop factor is its impact of the WATE viewfinder and another viewfinder gizmo's since 1.2x probably wouldn't map well to alternative set of lines / magnifications in those finders.

And I fully agree with you Guy. Leica would presumably gain cost efficiencies by using Kodak as the sensor supplier, and presumably the same sensor foundation as the S2 (assuming it can be produced in the desired dimensions). I would also expect to see the Maestro chip as the M9's DSP. In theory a good portion of the DSP development from the S2 could be re-used in the M9, thus speeding up development and hopefully reducing cost.

Cooter's Camera in Dallas this weekend only mentioned that many camera forums were speculating about a forthcoming M9 in September. They seemed indifferent about the rumor. Their Leica selection is barely one shelf in a glass case, so I doubt Leica is concerned about keeping them "in the know".
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
John I would think at the wafer stage say it is 8 inch round they could possible cut 3 S2 size than saving space instead Of trying to squeeze in two more S2 size just make 3 or 4 M9 size. That was my thinking, obviously the numbers maybe off here but you get my thinking. They could gain more by splitting it up and get as least waste as possible which saves money. Than each type of sensor would go into the micro- lens stage since they would most likely be different.
 

LJL

New member
Here is a question for the M8/8.2 owners/M9 wanters.....let's imagine the M9 makes it to the streets in a month or so, or later; further, let's imagine it will be 36x24mm (full frame 35mm), or even as is suggested, 30x20mm (1.2x crop, which is not all that far from the present 1.3x crop of the M8/8.2 model); further, it will accept all the present M lenses, etc......what are folks thinking about with respect to getting the M9 yet keeping their M8/8.2 as a second or back-up camera? How are you thinking about the UV//IR filter issue? Plan on carrying a little folder of various UV/IR filters to swap on an off lenses whenever you switch bodies? How convenient is that going to be for many?

Sure, it is not much of an issue, as most M8/8.2 owners already have filters, so no added cost, but now it becomes more of the extra equipment to carry, not to mention what differences may exist in color profiles when going to process things later. None of this may be an issue, but I just started thinking about that aspect, and wonder what others thought. Would folks start to ditch their M8/8.2 bodies, or keep them and live with the ongoing UV/IR filter hassle? Yeah, almost all of us would prefer shooting without those pesky and expensive filters, so would many just stop shooting the M8/8.2 once they got the M9 that would not need those filters anymore? Use the M8/8.2 for B/W or IR shooting mostly? Dump the M8/8.2 and try to dump the filters also? (Leica sure cleaned up on selling those puppies to most of us, and now they would become a bit more obsolete for all but those keeping and using the M8/8.2 body. Feeling a bit more burned now? I am.)

LJ
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
LJL, your question assumes the "M9" will eliminate the need for the filters.

That's what everybody's hoping will happen, and various technological breakthroughs have been invoked to explain how it might happen. (Anybody thought of employing Maxwell's Demon? He could run around with a little prism, straightening out the chief ray angles at the edges of the sensor...)

But we don't know that it will happen... and if it doesn't, the filters will be as necessary as ever.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

1) Be full frame 24x36 and

2) Not need additional IR cut filters and

3) Be in the M8 form factor body and

4) Probably use the same battery as the M8 and

5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

:D,
 

LJL

New member
LJL, your question assumes the "M9" will eliminate the need for the filters.

That's what everybody's hoping will happen, and various technological breakthroughs have been invoked to explain how it might happen. (Anybody thought of employing Maxwell's Demon? He could run around with a little prism, straightening out the chief ray angles at the edges of the sensor...)

But we don't know that it will happen... and if it doesn't, the filters will be as necessary as ever.
Yes, I am assuming any M9 if it has a new sensor will NOT require additional UV/IR filtering on the lenses. That may be a poor assumption, but I think Leica would continue to get slammed if they did not correct that ugly mistake on a new generation/model camera. To purposely continue to build in this sort of "problem", with the offered correction still working against the concept of why folks would prefer to use Leica glass without extra filters in front, seems unlikely. I could be very wrong, but can you imagine a new camera, new sensor, new processing, etc., plagued with an old, ugly problem that could be fixed, rather than perpetuated?

LJ
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
I agree it would be better to fix the IR issue, I just don't know if it can be fixed within the scope of the M-mount flange distance AND with something they can release by the end of September!

Jack, any comment on what's behind your electronic-focus-confirmation belief? This would be a stretch for me, since there's nothing in the M8 design that would provide an input for it. (You can't do this off the imaging sensor; you'd need to add a pair of phase detectors, a la the Contax G1/G2...)
 

John Black

Active member
I (strongly) believe the M9 will:

5) Get ready for this -- have electronic focus confirmation!

:D,
In a dSLR the light is routed to AF sensor via a sub-mirror, so how do we get the light to the AF sensor in a M9? And we know the CCD won't be turned on with contrast AF like a digicam due to heat build up. The idea sounds interesting, but technically it sounds quite challenging. I'd like to Build-To-Order options of .72 and/or .85 viewfinder magnification. I'd also like to see the diopter adjustment built into the M body. My eyes vary day by day, some days I need more diopter adjustment, other days less.
 

woodyspedden

New member
John I would think at the wafer stage say it is 8 inch round they could possible cut 3 S2 size than saving space instead Of trying to squeeze in two more S2 size just make 3 or 4 M9 size. That was my thinking, obviously the numbers maybe off here but you get my thinking. They could gain more by splitting it up and get as least waste as possible which saves money. Than each type of sensor would go into the micro- lens stage since they would most likely be different.
Guy

I don't know about the 8 inch wafer as a size of choice for such a large sensor. I would guess these to be produced on 12 inch wafers which dramatically changes the production economics.

Wait and see I would guess

Woody
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Jack - Hope you're right on the focus confirmation; if true firmware could conceivably correct for focus shift and the Nocti could actually be usable with a decent yield of keepers in poor light. A very big development.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy

I don't know about the 8 inch wafer as a size of choice for such a large sensor. I would guess these to be produced on 12 inch wafers which dramatically changes the production economics.

Wait and see I would guess

Woody
Thanks Woody I know you have been in this business and was not sure of the true output size of the wafer. Thanks for inputting that but I know you know what I was getting at with waste it could be cut up between the two sizes to save costs.
 
Top