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Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Not everyone shoots like that. I am happy with a 35 and a 75, and I rarely bring a second body. And as a former DMR owner, I would be surprised if 2 m8's and six lenses weighed more than the dmr and two zooms. The DMR was a beast. And for what it's worth, my M8 has been rock solid since the day I bought it, while my first DMR broke after 8000 pictures, then came back still broken after a month in the shop, was then replaced, the replacement was broken on day 1, and only after another 2 weeks did it finally keep working for 2 years. Then one day it just decided to stop working while I was shooting from a helicopter. That was the last straw for me.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I still see the main advantages of a rangefinder in fast and accurate focus specially for normal and wide angle lenses, bright viewfinder, no blackout when you take the image, very responsive, IMO it is smaller and lighter, less vibration for handholding long exposure times, unobstrusive, you see not only the image but also a little bit outside the frame.


Great thread...........would'nt it be easier though just to stay with a tried and tested DSLR!:rolleyes:

Some of us can remember these sort of arguments when SLR film cameras took over as the favoured pro tool formerly the province of the rangefinder. Only Leica RF's survived that massive exodus to sanity! It was circa late 50's early 60's I think.

A Leica user friend of mine sold all his DMR and R glass to switch to the M8 some years ago. When I last saw him he reckoned that his bag of two M8's, and six lenses which he needed to replace his zoom R lenses was just as heavy as his R9/DMR plus a few zoom lenses!

He was looking for another used DMR system as he missed the flexibility of his zoom lenses! BTW he said he needed two M8's as one of 'em was usually away for repair!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The DMR had the best color and tonal range in any of the 35mm world. Very simple reason CCD sensor and no AA. Still no other 35mm has that combo and it flourishes in MF. Main reason I went MF was their was nothing beyond the DMR like that except MF. My biggest blunder was selling the DMR for more the M8 stuff which I liked a lot but the DMR was the better tool for me. I will give this post the dead horse award since I blew it on that one. At least i woke up and moved up. That does not mean i did not like the M8 certainly did just the wrong tool for me in the long run.:deadhorse:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I think rangefinders might work good for some people and not so good for others.
I have used a M6 for many years, bought an R6 one day and sold it 4 weeks later.
Today I use the M8 more than I use my Nikon dslr.
I cant even tell why I get along so good with rangefinder, but it just does work for me. And maybe it just does not work for others.

I enjoy MF as well, but personally I wouldnt give up the M8 and just use MF.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
The form and setup of your kit will always be most influenced by your subject matter and preferences . This should drive the decisions on whats best. For street(first) and travel(second) I haven t been able to beat the M series. Two bodies and 6 lenses (per venue) is about right. I cut down to 4 lenses each time I go out. Its light,fast and produces all the IQ I need for the subject matter. I can shoot sports with good success up to the 135mm but thats it .

The M9 could have several really important improvements. The FF will be great but I really have a kit that covers from(16-135mm) 21-180mm FOV...almost perfectly (costs a lot but with the 21/1.4 I am there). I am worried a bit about loosing the 180mmFOV and mixing an M8 with and M9 may not create a consistent look in the images . (M people are never completely happy !)

Better ISO performance is my highest priority. Beyond 320 you start to loose too much IQ . 640 is definitely useable ...but 1250 sucks IMHO unless you plan to work with the noise(as a grain look) and 2500 requires some post processing magic. One more stop gives you 1/60 at 1.4 under street lights or maybe the ability to use a 2.8 lens braced by something. This is what I have with the D3/D700 which for me has a 2EV advantage over the M8 .

My 2nd priority which I don t think I will get is weather sealing...I shoot in the rain,snow and by the ocean . Sometimes the M8 is left home because of the weather... sometimes I risk it. The best light is often right before or after a storm.

Agree on the ability to easily adjust exposure compensation as a must.....don t think I will get that either.

The larger sensor 18MP will seal the deal as it should be a step function up in IQ..I would really hope that they would get us to 16bit as that seems to be the DMR s advantage over the M8 and you can easily see the improvement in dynamic range and color saturation(I have a DMR).

Now if I was into large fine art prints ,commercial shoots,weddings,architecture,sports ...I would look to MF for image quality and DSLR for speed,flash,long lenses etc.

A new M9 with the rumored specification would be a big improvement ..but if you need a DSLR or MF for the type of work you do most ...???
 

John Black

Active member
Roger - How do you lose 180mm? Cropping a full-frame image to 1.33x puts you right back where you are with the M8's crop's, so I don't understand how'd you be losing anything compared to what we have with the M8. I totally agree with you regarding some degree of weather sealing. It's scary that a rain drop can roll off the case, under the power button and seep into the camera body.

Overall I like the M8 how it is. I don't want to see it get complicated with EVF's or electronic frame lines. If I want features, buttons and high levels of customization - then I'll buy / use a dSLR. What I like most about the M8 is its simplicity and directness. More MP, maybe full-frame, same sharpness, better ISO, 16-bit DNGs and maybe some other minor tweaks, and I'm happy. A nicely paced evolution into a full-frame M9 is about my pace.

The Micro 4/3's solution is probably a good platform for some of these other ideas - like EVF type framing. A well thought out 4/3's body that can accept M lenses directly could be a very nice addition to the M8/M9 as a second body / back up. I'm not sure if I'd like using a 90 APO cropped to 2X for an effective 180mm FOV, but then again, I might like that option. With sensor stabilization that could be a very intriguing option.

I'm also wondering if we'll see the Visoflex make a return as the R lens solution. That's probably not as slick of a solution as some people would like, but I get a kick out of the Visoflex III. It's a bit frankenstein in its execution, but it amuses me.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
The DMR had the best color and tonal range in any of the 35mm world. Very simple reason CCD sensor and no AA.
Okay, I admit I'm straying off-topic a bit, but I have a question about this.

Given that we accept the proposition that anti-aliasing (AA) filters are bad for color, tonal range, detail, etc., and that consequently less AA filtering is better, and no AA filtering is best of all... then why do Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic, etc., etc., insist on including them in so many of their camera designs?

Is it because:

-- They're stupid? ("Whoa, duh, I'm gonna design in this thing that makes my camera take bad pitchers, and then I'm gonna stick my finger in this electric socket...")

-- They're part of an evil conspiracy? ("Bwah-hah-hah, we'll include an AA filter in our expensive DSLR so people's pictures will be all mushy and off-color, and they'll think it's the lens, and then they'll go out and buy our new expensive lenses! And then we'll foreclose the Widow Jones' mortgage and take her farm! Hahahahaha!")

-- They're wimps? ("Oooh, I wish I were a rugged, hairy-chested manly man, the kind who likes huntin' and fishin' and cold baths and can take his aliasing without flinching. But I'm just a 98-pound weakling wussy-pussy, so I'm going to design an AA filter into my new camera.")

Or is it possibly that AA filters have their place? I know, I shouldn't have said it, but I hang around in the gutters and dark alleys of the photography world, where twisted souls who have turned their back on the Gospel of Solms whisper perverted heresies of this sort... I was going to enumerate a few, but was afraid of shocking the kiddies...
 

etrigan63

Active member
Not having an AA filter is like walking around without knickers. Takes a special person and a little getting used to. ;)
 

georgl

New member
"...insist on including them in so many of their camera designs?..."

Because these cameras/systems are designed to deliver high IQ out of the camera (mostly JPGs), that's why they spend millions on image processing, filter algorithms... It's convenient for the amateurs and fast for the press-photographers.

Without AA-filters, moire can appear and has to be removed manually in the RAW-converter. But WHEN it appears, no crucial information is lost during this process that would have been captured WITH an AA-filter.
 

John Black

Active member
The big upside of an AA filter is that the slight blurring allows the raw editors to scrub the noise better. Additionally, the AA filter suppresses moire and reduces the likelihood of false color artifacts. I do not like AA filters, but admittedly they do have their benefits. In my experience they rob us of sharpness and in turn we apply sharpening which leads to a digital, artificial look. Once you've seen the "native" acuity of a non-AA'd sensor, it's very difficult to accept the AA look / results (at least IMO).
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I know a number of the Nikon pro s have had the AA filters taken off their sensors to improve acuity . But I have never heard the downside of doing so. The AA filter explains the sharpness and the CCD /16bit the dynamic range and color saturation? Is that correct?

No one seems to be talking about 16bit and thats what appears to separate the M8 from the DMR. And its in the spec for the S2.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Without AA-filters, moire can appear and has to be removed manually in the RAW-converter. But WHEN it appears, no crucial information is lost during this process that would have been captured WITH an AA-filter.
Well, I really don't want to hijack this thread into being about AA filters, but I ain't buyin' that one!

The reason for my skepticism is that at work I use a medium-format back that lacks an AA filter. When you get moires -- which you inevitably do when you photograph fabrics or printed materials with halftone dot screens -- you're supposed to remove them via the manufacturer's software, which includes about two dozen different AA filter routines.

None of them work as well as a DSLR with a properly-designed hardware AA filter. Crucial information is always lost (which is one reason I only use this back when I absolutely have to.)

I wish I'd saved a technical whitepaper I downloaded a few years ago, when the M8 first appeared and this less-is-better notion about AA filters began circulating widely among photographers. It was put out by a maker of AA filters (obviously they'd have an incentive to lie, of course, but their argument was very logical and the technical details were plausible.)

Among the points made were that an AA filter isn't simply a "blurring" filter -- it uses birefringent crystals to cut off too-high spatial frequencies with negligible effect on lower ones, preventing aliasing from occuring in the first place. The best that software solutions can do is blur the aliasing after it occurs -- and since the software has no way of knowing which structures are aliasing and which are actually present in the image, inevitably it has to compromise detail. Medical analogy: the AA filter is preventive medicine that keeps the aliasing "disease" from occurring, while software is an after-the-fact remedy that can only mask the symptoms. That's been my practical experience with my non-AA back, too.

Another point is that one form of aliasing is "false resolution," which causes an image to appear to have fine details that aren't actually present in the original subject. It's been speculated that this is actually what photographers are seeing when they say their camera produces "sharper, crisper" images after the AA filter has been removed.

Counterpoint: After my original post, I got a private reply from another member who wishes to remain in stealth mode, suggesting that while AA filters do a better job than software of handling moires, they do so at the expense of color purity -- they muddy up fine nuances of color. That I can believe. I can imagine that people who say their non-AA cameras give "more detail" might well be seeing color detail rather than luminance detail. And that would explain why people for whom finely nuanced color is very important -- landscapists and catalog shooters come to mind -- would prefer minimal AA filtering. (Natural landscapes probably contain few potential sources of moire, and catalogs are shot under controlled conditions where you can manage the problem at the source.)

That's still not the same as saying "less is better, and none would be best of all." It's a question of which image characteristics are top priority for you. But I'll concede that for some people, ditching the AA filter might be the best answer, even if that's not for quite the reason they think it is.


And now we'd better be getting back to arguing about the desirability of various potential feature sets for the M9 vaporcam...
 

John Black

Active member
The degree and frequency of moire is influenced by pixel pitch. As the pixel pitch gets tighter and tighter, moire is less of an issue. A 1Ds3 has a very similar pixel pitch as a Phase One P45, so you could (conceivably) photograph an offending fabric with both cameras at the same distance, same focal length and gauge how much the AA filter is helping or not.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Well if the vaporcam has some sort of electronic focus assist, then I am interested, but sadly, I JUST CAN'T focus a straight rangefinder anymore.
-bob
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Riccis,

If the M9 isn't vaporware, could you please tell us where we can order one. Just the name of a dealer would be fine. Thanks,

Steve
 
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