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View Poll Results: Do you or don't you use filters (IR CUT) with M8?

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  • Never

    1 4.55%
  • Rarely

    1 4.55%
  • Sometimes

    2 9.09%
  • Always

    18 81.82%
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Thread: to filter or not to filter!

  1. #1
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    to filter or not to filter!

    Time for an update on this. I NEVER use my filter. (tried and hated them.) and I don't seem to have much of the dreaded 'magenta cast' (which BTW simply means our eyes are not as good a the M8, the objects really ARE a bit red
    So after a few years, and finding only 3 or 4 needing fixing (did with John's profiles!) I attach a couple that show
    flash, and some black ployester
    bright sun and a lot of black fabric and plastic

    No filter
    no corrections
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:23.

  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Victor sorry to tell you but I ran a lot of tests on this issue and was a beta tester for Leica also and this effects ALL colors of the visible light spectrum not just synthetic blacks. Greens and foliage and anything that emits IR light has big issues without the filtration. This actually is a bigger issue than most people realize when you need to be on the money in all your colors. So yes it even effects outdoor shooting but most people don't recognize it because they simply are not color calibrated and such.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #3
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Victor sorry to tell you but I ran a lot of tests on this issue and was a beta tester for Leica also and this effects ALL colors of the visible light spectrum not just synthetic blacks. Greens and foliage and anything that emits IR light has big issues without the filtration. This actually is a bigger issue than most people realize when you need to be on the money in all your colors. So yes it even effects outdoor shooting but most people don't recognize it because they simply are not color calibrated and such.
    Fair enough. Can you post a RECENT example?

  4. #4
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    No the M8 has been gone a long time and threw out those tests but I posted a lot of it on LUF many moons ago
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    I don't want to disappoint you, but on the shots you posted the colour could be a lot better....
    JAAP
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    The colours of my generation are black and white.

  6. #6
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    I haven't detected any change from M8 to M8.2. Color pollution was just horrible without the filters, reflections of specular highlights and light sources at night was a problem with the filters too.
    Sharpness also suffered at larger apertures on on subjects with high ir reflectivity due to the focal length shift at longer wavelengths.
    Yes, you can shoot without filters if you are willing to suffer the degradation, but only with filters or exceptional subject and lighting conditions can the camera produce the quality that its lenses are capable of delivering. Or, you just don't care. That is ok too, but don't claim that it is the best that the system candeliver, because it isn't.
    -bob

  7. #7
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    I don't want to disappoint you, but on the shots you posted the colour could be a lot better....
    I'm all ears..

    in what way? Having taken the shots they are pretty close to reality. The christmas tree eg really has that smoky blue green look-the subtle difference in th two dark red pulls is pretty close, and the brown of the oriental rug is spot on.
    Curiously the flash caused a little cyan cast to the walls!

    but that's not the point, the point is that with film or digital, WB, color casts print spectrum, gamut-color is NEVER perfect. and the real issue is the blacks.

    I repeat my question... what (other than the cyan walls) bothers you about the color?
    download and fix. Maybe it will expose the magenta cast after all--hey maybe my bar is too low...

    Victor

    PS in the 2nd shot, that's my son-- the jacket and goggle colors are exact. The sun is causing undersaturation of the trees, but they are Colorado Blue Spruce..

  8. #8
    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    I find them flat and blueish on my monitor. Especially the greens and reds look off. But I will admit to being a bit anal about colour, I even use 486 filters on my DMR and find I get a better starting point for managing the colour.
    JAAP
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  9. #9
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    I don't want to disappoint you, but on the shots you posted the colour could be a lot better....
    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    I find them flat and blueish on my monitor. Especilally the greens and reds look off. But I will admit to being a bit anal about colour, I even use 486 filters on my DMR and find I get a better starting point for managing the colour.
    The prophoto rgb tifs from the DNG are really good. These jpgs, to srgb to god knows what web profile..

    BTW at 10,000 ft snow will have a bit of a bluish tinge, at least it seems that way to me.
    Hell, in Davos the sky sometimes looks PURPLE! (that was Vail, though)

  10. #10
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I haven't detected any change from M8 to M8.2. Color pollution was just horrible without the filters, reflections of specular highlights and light sources at night was a problem with the filters too.
    Sharpness also suffered at larger apertures on on subjects with high ir reflectivity due to the focal length shift at longer wavelengths.
    Yes, you can shoot without filters if you are willing to suffer the degradation, but only with filters or exceptional subject and lighting conditions can the camera produce the quality that its lenses are capable of delivering. Or, you just don't care. That is ok too, but don't claim that it is the best that the system candeliver, because it isn't.
    -bob
    Nothing to do with not caring.. I'm usually considered a perfectionist. What I do NOT like is the cyan shift an interminable corrections needed.

    If the quality is better with filters, let's see the examples

    I've got SIX filters I'm itchin' to use :-)
    Last edited by gogopix; 9th August 2009 at 16:55.

  11. #11
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    I tried shooting without the IR filters, but too many colors were skewed. As Guy said, even foliage can get a strange cast. I tried the black & whites with and without filters too. That was tougher and I probably could shoot filter-less if processing only as black and white, but being perfectly honest, I have no idea which images will go color vs black and white until I get in front of the monitor and decide on post processing. So, shooting filter-less would limit my options in post.

    Shooting with IR filters is an annoying quirk. In use it doesn't bug, it's mostly the "idea" of having to do so. I don't like how the lens caps protrude with filters attached. The stacked look is cheap. Probably my only legit niggle is wondering if the filters are leading to flare with bright lights in dark conditions. This happens alot - like shooting sunsets, street lamps, auto headlights, etc. I've removed the filters and have seen similar results, so I can't pin it on the filters. But they certainly can't help (in terms of flare).

    I've seen IR bleed with the Canon 1Ds2, 1Ds3 and medium format. So I guess they could benefit from filters too, but I don't bother because there IR shift seems slight. I do NOT like the M8 IR Color Profile in C1. I use the generic M8 profile or the C1 Black and White special effects (Panochromatic and the Yellow-what-they-call-it-preset).

  12. #12
    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    I do a lot of night shooting with a Nocti on the M8 and the filter does cause flares and by removing the filter they are reduced (You want flare at night try the Canon 50/1.0). Since there's not much IR in that environment. I take it off then. I have found that shooting B&W with a filter helps sharpness, which I think is to due to IR not being focused sharply.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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  13. #13
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    This subject is SO old.
    Asked and answered
    I give it my dead horse award.

  14. #14
    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Victor, you are talking about a cyan shift. Does that mean that you are using the filters on uncoded lenses? And btw, I agree about Jpegs and the web.
    Here we are at 2700 metres:




    Or, at 2400 m at 5 Pm, falling darkness:




    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Nothing to do with not caring.. I'm usually considered a perfectionist. What I do NOT like is the cyan shift an interminable corrections needed.

    If the quality is better with filters, let's see the examples

    I've got SIX filters I'm itchin' to use :-)
    Last edited by jaapv; 10th August 2009 at 01:02.
    JAAP
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    The colours of my generation are black and white.

  15. #15
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    for those interested in trying (esp where you find filters giving trouble)
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:23.

  16. #16
    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: to filter or not to filter!

    Cyan drift is easily corrected in Cornerfix
    JAAP
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    The colours of my generation are black and white.

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