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Thread: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

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    Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Aaargh - can't edit title , should read 'M9' not 'M'

    Not so great news and the between the lines on the R line isn't encouraging.

    http://www.bjp-online.com/public/sho...ml?page=725281
    Last edited by robmac; 7th March 2008 at 04:21.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    I don't recall anybody, not even Steven Lee, has 'promised' anything about a 24x36 sensor based M camera.
    As far as I remember he just stated that they were looking into a full frame solution, it be either as an update or a new model. And I see nothing sensational in such a rather weak statement. Only what was to be expected.
    I keep my fingers crossed that Leica soon (and at the latest at Photokina) will at least announce what their current plans are for the R system since the DMR has now been discontinued for quite a while.
    Last edited by Steen; 7th March 2008 at 05:30.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Hey,
    Don't get too anxious about depreciating the camera that I am just beginning to get used to extracting from it what it is capable of producing. I want to ride this M8 for awhile.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    I just wish they'd get their act together communications-wise. Comments like the quoted one in contrast with hints of an R10 in other interviews, won't do much to help the confidence of users -- or, in the case of the former, the lens resale market.

    The M9 denial is no great surprise (I think), the upgrade program was a dead give away no FF was coming. The R comments are my bigger concern.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Communications, especially cross language or cross culture, is non-trivial.
    On the other hand, I am of the opinion that the noise coming from the fora as well as the press' proclivity of premature obituary publication is at least half of the problem that we perceive.
    If I were King of Leicaland, I would be be not saying anything, but it is tough to say nothing, especially with the press asking you, "Sir, could you clarify the non-statement you made yesterday that we minced and parsed and mis-quoted?" Besides, if you deny them interviews, they pronounce you and your company either non-responsive or dead.

    I am not sure, but I don't remember any substantive "official" forward looking statements from either Canon or Nikon over the last couple of years.

    Leica is being punished IMO by some of its customers for being one of the MOST communicative and responsive companies in the business.

    -bob

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Leica is simply downplaying what just happened with leaks on FF. My GUESS is there not sure they can do FF effectively but there trying too and if they pull it off it will be announced as a upgrade only. The R10 is alive and well and there simply not talking about it. And certainly the booth could even be bigger too. Let's not forget the small stuff too with 4/3rds camera's.

    Let me add one more thing I think what we will see on the R10 is it will be smack in the middle of a 35mm DSLR and a MF system. Basically take it a little above the Canon 1dsMKIII in image quality. Looks to me like a 22 mpx CCD Kodak sensor with no AA. Sounds just like a Phase one back does it not. That's what I am looking for a MF sensor style in a 35mm body. My speculation
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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Aaargh - can't edit title , should read 'M9' not 'M'

    Not so great news and the between the lines on the R line isn't encouraging.
    Actually, you can edit the title... It is under "Thread Tools" and not the regular edit space. I took care of it for you

    As for the rest, what Bob said -- both times. I'm still learning to extract the full potential of what the camera can offer too!

    I would also suspect Guy's comment is pointed in the correct direction as respects the R10.
    Jack
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    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    I don't recall anybody, not even Steven Lee, has 'promised' anything about a 24x36 sensor based M camera.
    As far as I remember he just stated that they were looking into a full frame solution, it be either as an update or a new model. And I see nothing sensational in such a rather weak statement. Only what was to be expected.
    I keep my fingers crossed that Leica soon (and at the latest at Photokina) will at least announce what their current plans are for the R system since the DMR has now been discontinued for quite a while.
    you're correct. we've become so excited about full-frame that we've read-into the statements as full-frame is around the corner. both Mr. Lee and Leica's FAQ have neither made a promised of a full-frame M8 nor an M9 camera. They both suggested that full-frame may be a possibility, and no mentioning or even a hint of an M9.

    as for me, i was excited that Leica, unlike the other camera companies, is offering some upgradability path for their M8 owners. until leica, there is no camera company in the industry doing this. period.

    instead the other camera companies replace their recent models with a few tweaks here and there, and make your current camera obsolete because of the tweaks and new model name. if you want the new tweaks, you'd have to buy the new model. otherwise, you're abandoned.
    Last edited by Daniel; 7th March 2008 at 07:42.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    HI Bob
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Leica is being punished IMO by some of its customers for being one of the MOST communicative and responsive companies in the business.

    -bob
    I quite agree - the Japanese companies keep their mouths shut - even when there is a significant problem - and all companies seem to have those at one time or another.

    I'm really excited about the 'upgrade' options, I like the idea of hanging on to a camera for a long time and STILL be up to date. So many manufacturers bring out 'revolutionary' new models every 3 or 4 months, I'm a thorough believer in 'evolutionary' - which is one reason I like Apple so much - that 17" powerbook that I used for 2 years and Simmy has had for another two, looks just the same as the brand new one delivered a couple of weeks ago - you need to switch it on to tell the difference.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Well I hope Guy's right - but this back and forth commentary of what product may/may not be coming is not doing a whole lot to foster customer retention. Nor do I imagine that dealers (who will be no better informed than we are) are all too happy - especially if they are still bringing-in R inventory.

    New product? Keep your mouth shut until you have a well-working and tested handful of test bench units, then maybe tease the market a bit just prior to market release.

    Not sure where a line is going or if it will be around next season? "We don't pre-announce the intention(s) for any of our products".

    Jack - Thanks.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Bob


    I quite agree - the Japanese companies keep their mouths shut - even when there is a significant problem - and all companies seem to have those at one time or another.

    I'm really excited about the 'upgrade' options, I like the idea of hanging on to a camera for a long time and STILL be up to date. So many manufacturers bring out 'revolutionary' new models every 3 or 4 months, I'm a thorough believer in 'evolutionary' - which is one reason I like Apple so much - that 17" powerbook that I used for 2 years and Simmy has had for another two, looks just the same as the brand new one delivered a couple of weeks ago - you need to switch it on to tell the difference.
    Jono,
    I mostly agree with your comments here. The one exception is the stuff that is causing the most speculation and discussion. Upgrading the M8 with things like a quieter shutter, new LCD screen, vulcanite, engraving (upgrade or personalization?), are all great, and many will enjoy keeping the old friend longer. The one exception is the basis for the imaging itself.....good sensor and electronics. While the present sensor on the M8 is very good, the rest of the electronics are not close to cutting edge, and those things will only fall further behind. That may not bother many folks at all, and that is fine, but it will keep a lot from picking up an M8 and delving into its utility, fun and creativity, if the processing, speeds, buffer, and all that other stuff stays 4-6 years behind the curve. Simple being able to handle something like the SDHC card is still bothersome for many.

    I really am not trashing here....more like wiping some of the smears from the slightly rose colored glasses to look a bit harder. Glad to see the options and stuff, but really would like to have some clearer idea if it is worth committing more to Leica for anything other than my fun/creative/nostalgic/whatever camera (M8), versus thinking and starting to seriously plan for a top-end DSLR like the R10 coulda-woulda-shoulda- be. Not looking for much more than that. Do appreciate the greater communication from Leica, but the sometimes confusing language/ideas/thoughts/plans part makes it a bit harder for planning. If there is going to be a new killer R10 this year or early next, that would be more valuable knowledge to me than adding vulcanite to my M8. That is me personally. It is keeping me a bit in suspended animation.....do I upgrade all my Canon stuff soon and just keep working that, or do I patiently wait for a truly great imager that will be able to keep up with the likes of Canon and Nikon? With the R9/DMR gone, is there really going to be a viable DSLR option, and approximately when, and approximately with what kind of target specs? I do not need all the details, but it would be nice to know if there even is something under consideration.

    With all due respect to Guy and some others that may, or may not have a bit more knowledge and cannot speak openly too much, the vast majority of the photographic community is wondering if Leica is going to really be a serious player beyond the great recent hit with the M8...flaws and all.

    LJ

    P.S. This is different from the Apple approach. They do not talk about the specs and stuff, but they do have a commitment to specific lines like the laptops and desktops, and folks know they will be putting in some great new innards, even if the outside case remains the same. My 15" Titanium PB still sits nearby, looking very much like my more recent MBP, but all stops there, as the capabilities of the MBP far outstrip those of the PB, even for fairly simple things...like not being able to upgrade the PB to Leopard. Makes it an attractive relic of sorts.....but I KNEW going in that Apple would have more/better/powerful offerings over time. With Leica, that remains a huge unknown right now.
    Last edited by LJL; 7th March 2008 at 11:09.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    With all due respect to Guy and some others that may, or may not have a bit more knowledge and cannot speak openly too much, the vast majority of the photographic community is wondering if Leica is going to really be a serious player beyond the great recent hit with the M8...flaws and all.


    That is the 64 thousand dollar question too. The R10 better knock our freaking socks off or they may have to bend over and take it in the shorts. Sorry to be so blunt but that is the real fact as I see it. Nikon and canon are just to good to ignore now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    So true, Guy. We can all speculate till the cows come home about which format, sensor, features, etc., are going into the next model, and that is great fun. But the real angst comes from not even knowing if there is going to be a next model, when it is abundantly clear that there needs to be one, if Leica plans on remaining a player.

    As it stands now, I may just as well upgrade my Canon stuff, or switch back to Nikon to get the jobs done, maybe checking back with Leica in a year or two to see if there is some new firmware update or something for the M8. I know that sounds terribly sarcastic, but that is how it feels right now. I was seriously thinking about the R9/DMR when I got my M8, and then poof, Leica stops making things, and does not say if there is anything to replace it coming. Lots of folks speculating. Lots of hints from interviews and conversations, but nothing official that there will even be a top end DSLR...under whatever name (R10, Z01.1a Mk0, etc.), or whether all that great R glass is simply headed for nice paperweight status.

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 7th March 2008 at 11:29.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    frankly, everyone, our yakking about Leica's need to make the M8 catch up with the ever changing technology as though the latest and greatest specifications is the key to us taking better photos is getting silly. yes, it's great to have the camera meeting the current technological standards, but we sometimes dicuss about this as though we will never take great photos because Leica is "behind" the latest and greatest technologies.

    i'm sure everyone has seen lousy photos taken with the greatest cameras in the industry, and everyone has also seen Fabulous photos from photographers using simple cameras like the Holga, or the Ricoh GR and GX. there are a plethora of examples in the small-sensor forum.

    of course we want better noise performance and greater resolution. i definitely do, and, also, i want a lot of camera for less money. frankly, i and everyone else wants a bargain. who doesn't? even the wealthy wants a bargain! but a resourcefully creative photographer will not let any of these current "limitations" stop him/her from creating great photos. he/she works around them, or use the "limitations" to his/her advantage. this is one aspect of the spirit of Leica photographers, or any photographer. a painter never thinks that if his/her linen has a tighter weave then his/her paintings will be better.

    are we photographers, artists, or are we slaves to technology - geeks?

    -daniel chow


    final edit: o-k, i'm off my soap box.
    Last edited by Daniel; 7th March 2008 at 13:07.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Just got off the phone with Leica and trying to get more clear answers on warranty and CLA stuff. Hopefully will have some answers next week. They sounded a lot more positive than we do. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    ... With the R9/DMR gone, is there really going to be a viable DSLR option, and approximately when, and approximately with what kind of target specs? I do not need all the details, but it would be nice to know if there even is something under consideration.
    Dr. Kaufmann has stated that a DMR replacement is in development, probably with these specs:

    name R10
    sensor size > full frame
    AF
    can use existing R lenses

    and that it will be is a position to re-define the SLR paradigm. Expected at Photokina this year, 6 months away. Considering that Dr. Kaufmann owns the company I consider him a reliable source.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    well, yes and no. The present M8 is not keeping me from taking the kind of shots I like to take with it. It is very capable. It still has some shortcomings that would make it even more capable for greater use. (Nothing more aggravating than taking a great shot with a Noctilux wide open only to have flare from the damn UV/IR filter ruin things. The lens delivers. The sensor captures things nicely, but the other "little things" make for headaches. I still chafe at having to put filters on all that great glass. I do not use filters on any of my other lenses, and never have any problems.)

    As a person that struggles to make my living at this photography stuff, there is nothing in the Leica line-up that can accommodate a large portion of my working needs. (I shoot equestrian and professional polo where distances and speed/action and dust dwarf what the M8 can do, save for one or two good frames every now and then.) Nothing to handle big lenses, having good autofocus, shoot at higher frame rates and under more difficult conditions, etc. The lack of a capable DSLR at this point sort of forces me to use other gear. Leica has not given me a choice in their offerings. They had one, but it is gone. They hint at a possible successor, but no idea what and when.

    So, as I commented before....the M8 does a great job for what I can use it for, and much of that work is less demanding, is more creative, allows for getting into that sort of shooting mood and style to get those shots. I love it. It does not, however, offer more of the features and capabilities that other cameras do for harder, more demanding professional use for me. I can live with that, and am using it for shooting more things all the time. It is not holding me back....yet. I have not taken it out an high-pressure assignments yet, simply because I do not think I will be able to bring back the results that I need. Whether that is from my inability to use it, or its inability to keep up with me creates the same result. If I absolutely need to get the shot, I reach for one of my Canons. Period. I really would love to be reaching for a Leica DSLR that could deliver the same way, but that is not possible now, and it is questionable going forward. Those may not be everybody or anybody else's needs, and I respect that. I just feel that for the money, time, effort and frustration spent, the Leica today is more for the serious hobbyist and artistic pro, and not so much for the working pro that needs more reliability and support. Since many photogs dabble in all areas, it is not unreasonable to want both. Unfortunately, Leica is only able to address part of the wider ranging needs/wants right now, and is not offering an awful lot of future vision to address the other options. When I shot with Leicas for PJ work using film, they always could be counted on, and there were times I much preferred them over my then Nikon F series cameras. Digital changed that a lot, and Leica is not keeping up at this point, so all those performance things do start to matter. Just my thoughts an opinions.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Dr. Kaufmann has stated that a DMR replacement is in development, probably with these specs:

    name R10
    sensor size > full frame
    AF
    can use existing R lenses

    and that it will be is a position to re-define the SLR paradigm. Expected at Photokina this year, 6 months away. Considering that Dr. Kaufmann owns the company I consider him a reliable source.
    Doug,
    This is somewhat helpful. It is the "probably" part that keeps me nervous. I do not want this to descend into a specs discussion, but things like "> full frame" and "using existing R lenses" and "AF" seem a bit at odds. Putting the "AF" issue aside, how do you put an R lens into a box that is going to deliver an image larger than 35mm film format and have a mirror that does not crash the back of the lens? (The image circle from present R lenses may accommodate this without shifting the lens position, but is there any real support for that idea? The M lenses could deliver to a FF film, but not a sensor for various reasons.) I am sure there are some engineering tricks that they are working on, but some things just seem more wishful than real with all of the comments. Trust me.....I would welcome with open arms an R10 that had a FF or bit larger sensor that took great R glass and had AF....AND...could keep up with or surpass what Canon and Nikon are fielding today and next year themselves. If Leica truly has something this good, it will be amazing.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Doug,
    This is somewhat helpful. It is the "probably" part that keeps me nervous. I do not want this to descend into a specs discussion, but things like "> full frame" and "using existing R lenses" and "AF" seem a bit at odds. Putting the "AF" issue aside, how do you put an R lens into a box that is going to deliver an image larger than 35mm film format and have a mirror that does not crash the back of the lens? (The image circle from present R lenses may accommodate this without shifting the lens position, but is there any real support for that idea? The M lenses could deliver to a FF film, but not a sensor for various reasons.) I am sure there are some engineering tricks that they are working on, but some things just seem more wishful than real with all of the comments. Trust me.....I would welcome with open arms an R10 that had a FF or bit larger sensor that took great R glass and had AF....AND...could keep up with or surpass what Canon and Nikon are fielding today and next year themselves. If Leica truly has something this good, it will be amazing.

    LJ
    One way to have "> full frame" would be to have a square sensor - 36x36 should be very easily covered by the imaging circle of any R lens (or any DSLR); of course, this would mean to have the mirror box much taller, thus the body much taller, etc. But feasible in principle.

    Let's just wait and see what Leica has in store for us
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: Leica Denies M in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    ...things like "> full frame" and "using existing R lenses" and "AF" seem a bit at odds. Putting the "AF" issue aside, how do you put an R lens into a box that is going to deliver an image larger than 35mm film format and have a mirror that does not crash the back of the lens?
    There may be some outside-the-box thinking at work on the R10. If, as has been suggested, the R10 represents an SLR paradigm shift, the mirror box as we know it might not be part of their plans.

    The word "probably" might represent an engineer's thinking. Engineers, as my wife often reminds me, have an annoying habit of avoiding absolute statements because some unforseen boundary condition might force a change in plans.

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Both Doug's and Vieri's comments are well placed. Going with a different shape sensor, more like MF is one solution for sure. While I liked using my old Hassies with square format film, there would be a lot of good pixels wasted for those used to shooting with a more rectangular format. We will just have to wait.

    I also appreciate Doug's comment about "absolutes" and stuff, and thus the qualifier, "probably" ;-) The idea of no mirror and thus maybe no "reflex" would be a shift from SLR....like eliminating the "R". They could always go to a pure live view and not have a mirror at all as another possibility.

    I really did not intend for my comments to come across sounding so pessimistic, as that is not my nature anyway. I just have been reading too much about all of this lately and trying to make some sense of things for moving forward. Things still do not look very clear, so best idea right now is to pour a nice glass of Irish single malt and stop thinking about it for a while ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    I would certainly hope that the R10 is not a "live view only" body. There are wonderful applications for live view but there are many that are not. For tripod mounted landscape shoots live view is hard to beat. But for shooting my fast moving grandchildren, or sports or wildlife (in motion) it is very cumbersome. Including live view, as I have on my Nikon D3 is great, but not "only." JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I would certainly hope that the R10 is not a "live view only" body. There are wonderful applications for live view but there are many that are not. For tripod mounted landscape shoots live view is hard to beat. But for shooting my fast moving grandchildren, or sports or wildlife (in motion) it is very cumbersome. Including live view, as I have on my Nikon D3 is great, but not "only." JMHO

    Woody
    I couldn't agree more Woody. The E3 live view with the flip out LCD is splendid for any tripod work, macros (with the focusing) - really excellent for anything where one has time and a tripod. The idea of using it to take pictures of people is horrifying (it's tough enough without the inevitable lag and unreality).

    Live view is a really excellent innovation, but for everything - the expression EVIL (electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lenses) just about sums it up for me!

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    a lot of the discussion here assumes future cameras will adapt technology to photography. Rather, technology, from reflex, SLR, RF etc all gave us new features that WE adapted to. Live view critique is based on poor diplays. Yes there are docs who stiil insist on "silver' films when digital MRI are more acurate etc.Are they right?

    As an 'old dog' I actually welcome the new 'new tricks
    Mirror issues? go away with EVF. Or a squared, SMALLER mirror for focus (2x)
    Cant change laws of physics so 6 micro is the workaround for sensor size vs noise .
    Physical size is also there; bigger morror, more slap.
    On and on. I for one would love to see Leica take the lead in the next paradigm for a camera. The one we have have worked for 150 years, but hey, is it right for the next 150 ?(days! :-)

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Hi Victor
    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    a lot of the discussion here assumes future cameras will adapt technology to photography. Rather, technology, from reflex, SLR, RF etc all gave us new features that WE adapted to. Live view critique is based on poor diplays. Yes there are docs who stiil insist on "silver' films when digital MRI are more acurate etc.Are they right?

    As an 'old dog' I actually welcome the new 'new tricks
    Mirror issues? go away with EVF. Or a squared, SMALLER mirror for focus (2x)
    Well, I agree, we should embrace the new technology rather than trying to make it do what the old technology did . . . . I still think electronic viewfinders are nasty for taking pictures of people though
    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Cant change laws of physics so 6 micro is the workaround for sensor size vs noise .
    Well, you can't change the laws of physics, but if a small sensor with tiny photosites can produce a good image at low ISO, I don't think that it's the laws of physics which are stopping it from producing a good image at high ISO . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Physical size is also there; bigger morror, more slap.
    Again - other things being equal, but big mirrors can be damped.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    On and on. I for one would love to see Leica take the lead in the next paradigm for a camera. The one we have have worked for 150 years, but hey, is it right for the next 150 ?(days! :-)
    regards
    Victor
    I agree - I'd like to see it happen (as long as they don't abandon the M series). But I can't see how they can possibly compete, at least, not as long as the cameras are hand made in Germany!

    Just this guy you know

  26. #26
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    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...

    Well, you can't change the laws of physics, but if a small sensor with tiny photosites can produce a good image at low ISO, I don't think that it's the laws of physics which are stopping it from producing a good image at high ISO . . .
    To a first approximation, the quality difference between base ISO and pushed ISO in a silicon sensor (CCD or CMOS) is due to the maximum number of electrons captured in each pixel when the cell is used at base ISO. AFAIK, no imager actually changes on-chip biases to make the pixel collect more electrons per captured photon when used at high ISO, they simply throw away empty high order bits, shifting the output data. The rest of the considerable bag of tricks is postprocessing, which some cameras turn into pre-RAW file massaging. So that part is physics, or really the statistics of noise in data that results from counting discrete events.

    Pixel design, a branch of memory circuit design, is engineering, and there have been many clever tricks introduced to hold more electrons in each cell. As memory chips have gotten denser during the progression from megabit to gigabit it was necessary to make memory cells deeper to keep the number of electrons per bit constant at the level required to resist cosmic ray-induced errors. So there's hope for better high ISO, but through better imaging chips which take time to percolate through to the marketplace.

    scott

  27. #27
    Sean_Reid
    Guest

    Re: Leica Denies M9 in 08 and R10, well....

    BTW, Scott actually has the credentials to know what he's talking about here.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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