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Thread: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

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    Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Morning everyone as requested from a previous test. Folks wanted to see a three way 75mm test so thanks to leica for first sending the 75mm Summarit to me than followed out with a rush to getme the 75 cron also. having the 75 lux myself we now have 3 of leica's 75mm lenses for a comparison test.
    I am posting this both on the Luf and here at the same time

    Okay details shot early in the morning at 8 am so the light is still warm and i put color charts in but i did not WB these , lets just look at the warm light as it is. This is not a color test per say or a sharpness test yet. Sharpness test will be later. This is a color, contrast, saturation plus a 3/4 figure size test for bokeh which i know everyone is more interested in than anything else. I processed these in LR 1.31 and slightly adjusted the Lux exposure to match everything the 1.4 Lux exposure is brighter in all testing i have done with it. I did focus test every lens with LCD but as we all know like Sean does is actually change the focus slightly to find the best series , that i did not do here on this test but will on the sharpness test. BTW sean is also testing the 75 summarit, cron and i believe the CV 75 so look for that when he gets that up also.

    So lets go in this order always LUX, CRON, SUMMARIT


    let me post all of the test than please comment later will let you know when i am done , long series here

    First the Lux at 1.4
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Lux and Cron at F2
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.5 series Lux,Cron and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.8 series Lux,Cron and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    F4 series Lux,Cron and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Looks like the Summicron wins.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    5.6 series Lux,Cron and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Okay another series that i think folks REALLY want to look at is up close and what the bokh looks like . I am almost at minimum focus 3.5 feet or so. So reality a nice tight headshot but with a twist i turned the scarecrow almost 80 degree angle and focused right on the nose and the X marks . This way you can see the front and back bokeh as well.

    Okay Lux at 1.4
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    F2 LUX and CRON
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.5 LUX CRON and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.8 LUX CRON and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    F4 Lux , Cron and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    F5.6 Lux , Cron and summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    looks like your daughter has take a turn for the worse

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    End of this test. More test to follow like a sharpness test. as you can see there pretty darn close . there is some bokeh difference which is very slight on the same apertures and a little contrast difference as well but you have to look closely to see this stuff. Now i already know with the sharpness test the Cron and Summarits will be better becuase i already did a LUX , Summarit test but i will do a new one with all three now
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    gave her a break John.

    That's her girlfriend scary Mary
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Pretty interesting test so far. Damn there all good

    If anyone wants to link these to other sites for folks to get the info . Please do.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    One thing I noticed right away is that the summarit has more apparent depth of field at equal apertures. The backgrounds seem to be a bit more recognizable with the summarit than with the summicron or summilux. My eyes could be playing tricks on me, but that's what I see.

    Also, if you look at the first image of the summilux in the second test (the one of the scarecrow at f/1.4) you can see the "fuzzy/glowing/bleeding" effect that you get in the highlights with the summilux at 1.4. I think it is one of the things that makes the lens so interesting. It gives things an ethereal feel that I think very few lenses can do. Here is another example of it...

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Here's another example at more of a distance. It is not just it being out of focus, it is spherical aberration or coma...something more like that. Look at the highlights around the statue...despite it being in focus, they seem to "glow"...they bleed out a bit from where they actually should stop. You don't get this effect at all with the summicron or even with the summilux at f/2 and smaller.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Stuart nice pickup. Jack and i were just talking on the phone about the same thing. At 1.4 it's just a different lens, lower contrast and that leica glow to it. I will do the sharpness test too but the Lux will drag the lower end on that until 2.8. From a technical standpoint the Cron and Summarits are better but from a look standpoint the Lux has a look wide open
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I won't argue with you there. But that's also why I like it. If I want the sharpness, I set it to f/4 or f/5.6, if I want the look, I set it at f/1.4-2. For me, that makes it a more versatile lens. And frankly, when you absolutely need the speed at this focal length, it's going to be soft anyway because it is hard to handhold a long lens at less than 1/30th.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I call it my two fer lens. Just like you described and when I absolutely need sharp , nothing touches my 50 lux asph at any aperture. It really comes to what you are after in a lens and at what focal length you want it. For that glow look 75mm is great for people. I will keep testing the three though because folks need to see the sharpness difference in the open apertures. This will be a tough choice for some folks too because the Lux is a tank and at F2 and 2.5 the Cron and Summarits are really wonderful. I am impressed though with the 75mm summarit and it's price point and the quality this lens has. i did buy the 90mm summarit and really like it a lot. So for those watching there spending the Summarit opens up the door wide open and can get a awesome lens for a nice price. I would not hesitate to buy one for a second.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    We are on the same page! I think the tests are really interesting too. Leica seems to have outdone themselves with the summarits. The summicrons seem to be hit the hardest. The summiluxes and noctilux are there when you need the speed at all costs, but the difference between the summicrons and the summarits seems to be just the half stop and not much else.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Stuart and Guy obviously have to agree with everything you're saying. I think at f2 through 4, the Cron or the Summi are sharper, but no special look. Of course the Cron is smaller, and the Summi wonderfully compact for travel, so definitely worth considering for that. For a portrait lens, the sharpness isn't always a benefit (), and with the Lux we almost have a variable sharpness settings below f4...

    At the end of the day, the 75 Lux is another multi-dimensional lens like the 35 version IV Cron.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I was more impressed with the 35 and 90 Summarits, somehow. The 75 doesn't quite have the same look as the Cron, and the Lux is just much softer at f/1.4-2.0, catching up with the Cron at f/2.8-4.0 and at f/5.6 I don't see significant differences. The Summarit has a somewhat messier bo-ke look, I think. A bit more strained. The Cron is amazingly good. Maybe I will get one some day after all. What is life for anyway, if not to accumulate Leica lenses with time I do love the Lux glow wide open, but wish for more of it, like the 80 Lux-R (or the Noctilux on the M8).
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Yea lets see how these sharpness tests come in. The Summarit I agree has a slight bite to the bokeh compared to the Lux and cron. We also have to remember in real world we won't have 3 images of 3 different lenses either to compare against.
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    The other thing to is Seans test of these also and i would like to see what he came up with in regards to the 75 CV lens in his test
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Let's try a little something here this is not part of the sharpness test because i really have to do the test and be absolute certain that i am completely on target. And i could be off here but these are really tight crops and lets just see how they faired but let me get the real test done tomorrow just to be sure because the Cron maybe off. The summarit here looks really good and i know the Cron is better

    lets put the Lux 1.4 up. Again this is not absolute until i am really comfortable with a real test on sharpness
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    F2 Lux than Cron
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.5 LUX, CRON and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    2.8 LUX, CRON and Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    As you can see i maybe off on the Cron because the Summarit killed it so let me do a better test tomorrow and that way we know for sure. Here i think the Lux and Summarit are correct though. notice the Lux still did not catch up at 2.8 tough and at F4 it does which i will do those crops from the better test
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    What's interesting even though the cron is off look how damn sharp the Summarit is at 2.5 wide open. Folks that is damn good considering the crop
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    This also leads to my other conclusion with the 90 Summarit i just flat out do not miss focus with that lens and reason i bought it and sold the Cron because i do miss with the 90 cron. Interesting is the same thing happening on the 75mm and the Lux i don't hardly miss, is this a Cron thing i just don't know but it certainly is fitting the same pattern as the 90mm. Scary
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I think I have Cron disease.
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yea lets see how these sharpness tests come in. The Summarit I agree has a slight bite to the bokeh compared to the Lux and cron. We also have to remember in real world we won't have 3 images of 3 different lenses either to compare against.
    Guy,
    First, thanks ever so much for taking the time to do this and post results. It is very nice to see how things are working for the various lenses.

    And that is exactly the value of this to the point you made.....most (maybe all) of us are NOT going to be doing this kind of shooting with each lens, so getting one that is more comfortable for individual tastes and needs is really important.

    From what I am seeing, and from my own shooting with a 75 Cron (yeah, you should remember that beauty ), the Lux has its own slightly softer world wide open, and does resemble the Nocti in that respect....very nice for sure. The Cron, on the other had, looks to be delivering more saturation, more contrast, and overall more zip, but without the distracting bokeh that comes more into play with the Summarit. On their wide open ends, they all have a somewhat distinctive signature to me....Cron is crisp, but with a smooth bokeh, Summarit would be next for sharpness, but bokeh looks a bit less smooth, and the Lux has its own unique, smooth glow to it, but gives up contrast and saturation to achieve that. All look very nice, and it is great to have the options.

    I guess the more telling test would be how things look in other "real world" shooting that one might use these lenses for capture. I am thinking portrait shooting here, where that lower contrast and dreamier bokeh on the Lux may be more suited for lovely women portraits, while the Cron may deliver a sharper edge look for more traditional male shots. The Summarit might just turn out to be an excellent all-purpose shooter here, yielding a nice intermediate contrast, and where the bokeh may not matter quite as much shooting against a backdrop or something. Just thinking aloud after reading comments and seeing your images.

    Really do not think one can go wrong with any of them, and as we see, around f4-5.6 or so, the field looks pretty level.

    Again, thanks for doing the work and posting the results. Not going to give up my Cron, but the Lux and the Summarit both look very nice also.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Well said LJ well said. The Summarits do have a slight bite to them in the 75mm. i think the 90mm is smoother in the bokeh. I'm sitting here like a lot of folks with a 75 lux and we all hate the weight and size but it is a hard lens to give up and for me i nail focus with it pretty easily so not sure mine is going anywhere except my bag. But this does ask a lot of questions which one you want in that bag. Certain things we can add in processing but Bokeh is not one of them. We can add contrast and saturation at will in post so you have the choices to do that. Tough call really
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Guy,
    Great test and interesting results. Is there a reason that the shots taken with the Lux show greenish markings on the scarecrow's face while the Cron and Summarit look brown?

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I have always been a big fan of the 75 lux - but from all shots posted the cron seems to be the lens to get if you want sharpness and contrast. interestingly all three lenses I think look as sharp as each other ( maybe the lux a tad behind) at 2.5 and above...I am restocking my M line of lenses and I thought that the lux was a certainty - but after this test maybe a cron suits me just as well...

    what am I saying!!:??? LOL sorry 75 lux for that wide open look..cant be beat..

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I would say yes and no about the added saturation and contrast. It is true that we can pump those up, or tone them down in post, but there still seems to be a bit of difference in how that saturation and contrast look among the lenses as your images show. On every shot from the Cron, I can immediately see that deeper reddish color in the burlap below the scarecrow's head. The green background stuff also has a bit deep look to it, sort of like moving the black point up a notch or two. That may be too much for some folks and some applications, but it comes naturally from the lens.

    The bokeh is its own story, as you well note. On that last series of shots, look at the out of focus area in the far upper right corner for each lens. Only the Cron seems to keep rendering that green smooth, while both the Lux and the Summarit show a bit more definition to the shrubbery in a slightly more jarring (to me) way. Not a big deal at all, but that does come through.

    The Lux may be heavy, but it does things at f1.4 that are simply wonderful. The Cron is a bit lighter and smaller, but a bit less forgiving for things also. (BTW, I am shipping mine off for focus calibration....I compensate now, but I want the lens set properly so I do NOT have to think and guess how much adjustment to make, regardless of how small.) And the Summarit seems to be able to deliver an outstanding image in a smaller, lighter, and less expensive package. If one does not need the extra stops, or is shooting things where bokeh may not be quite as important for the overall effect, it would be a very hard lens to pass up. If one does normally prefer shooting around f4 and up, the Summarit would be the hands down choice from a size/cost/value perspective, I think.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    HI Guy (and everyone)
    I've read most of the thread, and it's simply confirmed how pleased I am that I have the 75 'cron!
    The lux is most desirable, but it's really large, and I think I'd still want to carry the 'cron around . . . . and if I want that dreamy look I can get the REAL DREAM with the noctilux!

    As for the new lens, I'm not really convinced, results look fine (and so's the price) but for me it has two obvious shortcomings:
    1. the bokeh is not as nice
    2. it doesn't focus as close.

    For me (and of course, this is only me) the 75 cron covers a number of bases - I think I'm right in saying that only the 90 macro has a larger magnification ratio at close focus - it's lovely for doing close up and detail shots, and it's still sharp wide open (with that lovely bokeh).

    Sure, it may be a little brutal for portraits, but that's easy enough to deal with later . . . and it has that lovely bokeh).

    The summarit isn't that much smaller, it doesn't focus as close, and if I had it, then I'd need another lens for that function.

    So, for me, it's the 'cron every time:


    Just this guy you know

  42. #42
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Cheers Guy brilliant little comparison review thank you for doing this. Most interesting

    I have to admit love my Lux its just one of those lenses that has something.

    But what strikes me here, and given the Lux has been around for quite a while, is just how well it stands up against the modern designs in terms of the technical side of things.
    Last edited by workingcamera; 13th December 2007 at 03:20.

  43. #43
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Just had to have another look through the pics . Gee that Cron is a snappy little beast! That extra contrast does also produced extra punch in the colours.

    It is a beautiful lens in every respect and handles so nicely on the Ms

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Technically the Cron can't be beat no question there . Leica even told me this in Germany and maybe part of the reason they let the Lux go from there line and i agree at F2 maybe the best lens overall, closer focus, bokeh still extremely smooth, still a nice size , contrast and saturation extremely good. Than you throw that 1.4 look in there and you have to wonder. Now if your a Nocti person like Jono said you can still get that look but i wonder if your a 50 Lux Asph guy can i get that look at 1.4 probably not since it is so well corrected. Let's face it the 75 LUX at 1.4 is not normal in a lens technically it's spherical aberrations and is a bad thing but it looks nice.
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Here let me color correct 3 images all at 2.8. I WB of each card on the bottom inside left patch in LR . This is how the colors should look.

    LUX, Cron, Summarit
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Technically the Cron can't be beat no question there . Leica even told me this in Germany and maybe part of the reason they let the Lux go from there line and i agree at F2 maybe the best lens overall, closer focus, bokeh still extremely smooth, still a nice size , contrast and saturation extremely good. Than you throw that 1.4 look in there and you have to wonder. Now if your a Nocti person like Jono said you can still get that look but i wonder if your a 50 Lux Asph guy can i get that look at 1.4 probably not since it is so well corrected. Let's face it the 75 LUX at 1.4 is not normal in a lens technically it's spherical aberrations and is a bad thing but it looks nice.
    Hi Guy
    Nothing dreamy about the 50 lux asph at 1.4 - as I understand, it and the 75 'cron are 'brother' lenses of roughly the same design - personally I'd have said that they are (technically speaking) the pinnacle of lens design, and perhaps some of the 'best' lenses ever made.

    Of course there is an alternative to the Nocti if you want to dream at 50mm, and that's the Zeiss f1.5 softar (sonnar). Rather like the 75 'lux, it's gentle wide open and then gradually sharpens up as you reduce the aperture (so that, at f5.6 it's almost as sharp as the splendid 50 'lux). Unlike the nocti it's very small (smaller than the 50 'cron).

    I love these lenses that have more than one life.

    Trouble with these discussions, is that if you aren't careful, they can turn your carefully selected 4 lenses into a bankruptcy inducing bag full!.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Closes the gap more and at 2.8 the Lux acts more normal . The Cron and summarit still look like they have more pop to them but still it is very slight. Now i chose that ugly background on purpose too , I want to see how the bokeh handles the junk back there . We run into this a lot. I like to test for worst case than make it a pretty test. Really serves us better in the long run.
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    If your not seeing the saturation look at the Red patch and also look at the red flower to the left in the background. i have to say after using Canon and Nikon for years that NO one handles Red better than Leica. Canon's from my days with it was so bad, more orange red. Leica nails it the best i ever seen , now maybe that has changed in recent years for Canon and Nikon but Real Red is hard to come by. Leica does it the best. Actually the color chart is very accurate looking with regards to color.
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    I brought Carstens comment over here from the LUF so you folks can read it. I know he won't mind

    Originally Posted by carstenw
    Guy, it looks like your camera might be front-focusing a bit? The shirt seems sharper than the nose and the Xs.

    If you nail it with the 75 Lux and miss with the 90 Cron, then one or the other is out. The 75 Lux has less depth of field wide open, and don't forget you are using the same rangefinder to focus both.

    Me:
    Yea I think one of them front focused on me. Reason i have to redo the sharpness test. i know the Cron is better than what we are seeing and the Lux could be better . i will do that this morning that test. Also Sean does a better job in the sharpness test too because his is done in studio with much more control. I do encourage people to look at his testing too , what turned out to be a nice thing for the end user is you have 2 of us testing the Summarits so this gives everybody a really good look at them. So in the end look at what we both are doing and make a call. Myself i am bouncing around between the Lux and the Cron. I have the 90mm Summarit and being so close to the 75mm I should have something different in the 75 mm focal length but if i did not than the Summarit is a great choice for the money. The only lag on it is the Bokeh compared to the Cron and Lux but we don't have three 75mm lenses when we go shoot , so if you if you don't compare them side by side inthe real world you would never know the difference. Let's face it too the bokeh is very close at 2.5.
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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Guy
    Nothing dreamy about the 50 lux asph at 1.4 - as I understand, it and the 75 'cron are 'brother' lenses of roughly the same design - personally I'd have said that they are (technically speaking) the pinnacle of lens design, and perhaps some of the 'best' lenses ever made.

    Of course there is an alternative to the Nocti if you want to dream at 50mm, and that's the Zeiss f1.5 softar (sonnar). Rather like the 75 'lux, it's gentle wide open and then gradually sharpens up as you reduce the aperture (so that, at f5.6 it's almost as sharp as the splendid 50 'lux). Unlike the nocti it's very small (smaller than the 50 'cron).

    I love these lenses that have more than one life.

    Trouble with these discussions, is that if you aren't careful, they can turn your carefully selected 4 lenses into a bankruptcy inducing bag full!.

    Not a bad thought Jono is that zeiss 1.5 i have seen some images from it and really like it . Could you start a thread on it and post a few images. Maybe trade my Lux for the Cron. The Cron i think may fit me better. I rarely shoot at 1.4. I'm the worst i have gone back and forth on this 3 times in the same damn thread. You wonder why i buy all these lenses, I'm a nut case
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica 75mm Trio Comparision Lux,Cron,Summarit

    Guy,
    I think you have come back around to the point again....there is no really bad choice among the three, and one needs to think about how each might fit into their kit based on overall needs and what results one seeks. If somebody likes shooting more stopped down, then it may not matter. If you need lower light capabilities, it is almost, not quite, but almost academic between f1.4 and f2.5, given how much one can play with the nice M8 files. From there, it comes down to size, price and bokeh, I think. There really is no way to get the Cron to have the same look as the Lux wide open, or even at f2. The Cron has its own smoothness that is different from the Lux and the Summarit, from what I have seen and am seeing in your shots. I do not think any of them are disappointing in the least....each delivers wonderfully. If I did not have the Nocti for the glow and softness for shooting wide, I might prefer the 75 Lux to get that effect to some smaller degree, should that be important for the shooter.

    At times, it seems that we (as a collection of shooters) shift our interests, and these sorts of tests become just that....tests of our interests and decisions, both past and future. It is just so nice to have the options. One day, we really like the more biting sharpness of one lens. Another day, we are pulled by the siren of bokeh. Another day we may be struggling to pull out shadow details. In the end, it is up to us to decide which fits our needs best, or for the most use. Personally, I love the look of the Nocti and your 75 Lux wide open, but it is not for everything I shoot, for sure. Some clients want edgier portraits or look for sharpness, or have other expectations. I see nothing wrong with being able to deliver to whatever needs be done....serve your personal art and style, have tack sharp shots to the edges, etc.

    To me, it is looking like the Summarits are creating a very nice complement to the Leica glass collection. If somebody only wanted a couple of lenses and did not want to spend a ton on glass, they could get by with a 35 and 75, or 50 and 90, plus still have room for the great 28/2.8 on the wider side. Incredible flexibility on a budget....so to speak. On the other end, if somebody really had a passion for one look, and needed glass to fit that style of shooting, it is also there. That really cannot be said of most (any?) DSLR line. I think having these sorts of options and choices is fantastic. Let's face it, most of the final image capture/delivery is still up to us, and "details" like micro-contrast, saturation, bokeh, etc., while extremely important for artistic renderings, fall by the side when we are struggling to just capture the shot at times. Having lenses across a broad range like this does allow us to "feed our needs".

    Sorry for the ramble....coffee has not fully kicked in yet ;-)

    LJ

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