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Quadra Updated!

fotografz

Well-known member
I have a PC cabled hot shoe adapter for triggering a hot shoe flash from a PC out only camera, and I have a generic Skyport receiver that takes different cables, one of which is a PC out. So why can't I just hook the Metz up via that receiver, and trigger everything together with a single Skyport on camera?
I'm not following what you mean Jack? Then where do you put the Metz flash? On a flash bracket? Or am I not following what you are saying?

I think the objective was to use on-camera flash in the camera's shoe for "mobile" fill while triggering the strobes with the Skyport. For example, at an event you place the strobes to light the backgrounds and use on-camera flash in TTL mode as you move around the event ... like a wedding reception.

I was trying to do it without adding some sort of bracket just to hold the little Skyport (which is plugged into the digital back's flash sync port). I don't use a bracket with the Hassy ... try to keep the MFD kit as light as possible.

-Marc
 
M

Marcin Harla

Guest
A studio full of Elinchroms? ... been there done that ... works for others but not for me, no thanks! ;)

-Marc
Marc,
but why? We had so much fun with broken mounts and using their flimsy brackets, remember? :ROTFL:
Profoto mount just spoiled you too much ;)

TBH, I'm surprised you went with Elinchrom. Good to hear you found a system that works. You wanted light and portable, you found it!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
but why? We had so much fun with broken mounts and using their flimsy brackets, remember? :ROTFL:
Profoto mount just spoiled you too much ;)

TBH, I'm surprised you went with Elinchrom. Good to hear you found a system that works. You wanted light and portable, you found it!
Hey Marcin!

I was surprised also ... but this kit is really, really small to replace off-camera speed-lights not strobes. Literally doable when working alone. Two 400 w/s generators are about the size of one 600B and offer 4 outlets. If the Profoto 600B had two outlets I would have gone for that as a super compact kit.

I also still use some Elinchrom modifiers like the huge Octa and gobo box .... but fortunately Profoto makes an Elinchrom adapter :grin:

-Marc

(Guys, Marcin worked with me many moons ago on both commercial and event gigs, and is now one of the premier wedding and portrait shooters. Check out his work and great (Profoto ;)) lighting: www.marcinharla.com)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I'm not following what you mean Jack? Then where do you put the Metz flash? On a flash bracket?
Exactly -- mount the Metz on my Stroboframe bracket, no cable, and trigger both via the Skyport in the hot-shoe on the camera. I like the bracket because it gets my flash higher up off the camera or flip it further to the side for a more natural fill effect and nicer catch lights.

And welcome to GetDPI Marcin!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Exactly -- mount the Metz on my Stroboframe bracket, no cable, and trigger both via the Skyport in the hot-shoe on the camera. I like the bracket because it gets my flash higher up off the camera or flip it further to the side for a more natural fill effect and nicer catch lights.

And welcome to GetDPI Marcin!
Jack, I was really trying to avoid the use of a bracket because I prefer full TTL ability for the on-camera fill. The Hassey H takes over TTL flash control and all flash comp functions can be done without taking my eye from the viewfinder. The penalty is the flash isn't centered over the lens axis in portrait orientation. However, when using an off-camera strobe I just fill to the opposite side of the key using a Fong diffuser.

Did an engagement shoot yesterday. Most of it was inside Marvelous Marvin's Mechanical Museum ... a pack rat's version of kitschy carney displays and side-show memorabilia stacked to the ceiling with narrow aisle ways ... perfect location test for this tiny system. Used the H4D and Leica M9. A 35mm DSLR free day ;)

I ran into two hitches ... first was a stupid over-site in my part: I set the +/- adjustment to 1 stop thinking it would be faster to work with. It proved to be to large a jump, and made light balance refinements less effective. Need at least 1/2 stop increments, maybe more. I should have known better.

The second was a technical glitch. The PC cord set-up using the digital back "out" sync port, worked, then didn't. I immediately switched to using the camera body sync port which was fine. Not sure what happened.

Also, there has to be a better way to attach the Skyport. The bungie cord idea worked but isn't stable enough when pressing the +/- buttons.

Definitely need at least two more skyports so I don't have to be removing one and moving it from camera to camera.

The lights were great, work like a charm and it was all very mobile and fast even in this very difficult location.

The big test comes at this coming week-end's wedding .... all at an opulent Masonic Temple with no natural light.

-Marc
 

robmac

Well-known member
Glad it worked out.

3M makes a 'velcro on steroids' called Dual Lock. Comes in strips and black/clear 'dots' of various sizes. VERY HD hold, self-adhesive and since both halves are hard nylon vs one fabric, no shifting around. You can apparently get a generic version at Radio Shack.

I've also attached Skyport Rcv to the side of my Acute B with a flat coin-shaped rare-earth magnet - no issues re: operation of limiting range. With the metal case of the

Also, this may or may not work with your H - or maybe you can copy it DIY.
It's from RadioPopper and looks to be a bracket with a long hot shoe extension so you can attach one of their Trx to a Nikon hotshoe without impeding the pop-up flash - and pick up the TTL signals/

http://shop.radiopopper.com/pxreceiverreplacementcanonmountingbracketbase-1-1.aspx
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack, I was really trying to avoid the use of a bracket because I prefer full TTL ability for the on-camera fill.
Okay, understand, just different strokes. I would simply use the Metz in Auto mode at -1/2 since the Quadra is fixed anyway. BUT, I also have the Metz remote cable -- the cable that plugs into the flash base, then you attach your camera module at the camera end -- the camera end also contains a repositioned "Auto" sensor so your flash is still reading auto at camera level.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Velcro Marc..
That was the first thing I tried Ben ... didn't work ... There isn't any surface to put it on ...the Skyport is too small to use velcro. The bungie to the Metz is more secure.

The good news is that being so small, the Skyport really works well on the M9. :thumbs:

-Marc
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Thanks for the heads up on the extra strong velcro Rob. I've even got a pocket wizard TT1 and Radiopopper PX on my flash with velcro, haven't ever had any problems with it to be honest eventhough it's only a very small strip on the TT1.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Ben, no worries. the Dual Lock is great stuff.

Still not 100% clear on how Marc is mounting is, but in hindsight, I think my earlier RadioPopper mount idea is not what he's needing.

Ben, on the RadioPopper - how do you find it? Am thinking of moving away from Skyport that are a left-over from my Eli days and since using Profoto now, there only a trigger. While PW makes sense for my AcuteB 600R, it would also be trigger only. The JrX units seem to have a good rep re: reliability and range and a JrX Trx+Rv pair is less than one Plus II.

I also am intrigued by the idea of using the JrX+Cube to be able to remotely control the power manually with some old Nikon SB-80DX units I have - hell, for an extra $30 for the Cube the ability to simply dial down a Nikon (or Canon) TTL compatible unit from the hotshoe is almost a no brainer - if it works.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
if it works..

There seem to have been some teething problems with the JX cube, google it for details as I've not been following it much, most of the problems seem to be canon related but caveat emptor (or however you spell it), etc.

I'm using the PX units, they just work unlike the pocketwizard ones which are finicky to work with and use their own version of ETTL which I can't deal with. I use a PW TT1 just as an on camera transmitter for my plus II's, it's a lot smaller and not that much more expensive, I fire it with a PC sync to hotshoe cord from Kaiser. Why they never put a PC or otherwise socket on the TT1 I'll never understand.

Radiopopper is a company worked out of someones shed. My PX's arrived all with different firmware and because of that they only work in the legacy P1 mode which doesn't include all the new stuff. As they only ship in the US and I'd had it shipped to a friend in the US and from there to the UK (with the associated costs) I haven't had the time or patience to work out getting them back to radiopopper for firmware updates. Shouldn't really be a problem for US orders though, they offered to send a shipping label, etc.

So all in all, when they work, they work great. Unlike PW where the problem is underlying design mess up. You need to do research first and make sure that they work in the field and then you're set to go. The cube idea really is very very interesting, as I shoot with Alien Bees, the concept of being able to control power 3 channels with either strobes or speedlights is very versatile.

I shot my first wedding with just speedlights (no strobes) and the radio poppers a couple of weeks ago. Was actually very liberating not bothering with the strobes, using the same transmitters I was changing from using the off camera lights in ETTL to manual to ETTL, to manual, etc depending on what kind of thing I was shooting. Extremely versatile and why I like the idea of the PX's for my uses.

p.s. ordered a yard of the dual lock, looking forward to using it!
 
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robmac

Well-known member
Thanks for the great input Ben - good food for thought. Will do some more research, but one option is to just go Plus II's for now and see how the RP gear shakes out. Think you'll like the Dual Lock.
 
M

Marcin Harla

Guest
Hey Marc,

I looked closer at the Quadra, heads look really small and portable. It may be a good solution for weddings for those that don't want to carry bigger packs (like Pro-7b, or even AcuteB), and you won't run into speedlights shutting down on you :)
Have you tried attaching small softbox or BD, or are you mostly going to use it with standard reflectors and umbrellas?


BTW, thanks for the introduction ;)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Ben, no worries. the Dual Lock is great stuff.

Still not 100% clear on how Marc is mounting is, but in hindsight, I think my earlier RadioPopper mount idea is not what he's needing.

Ben, on the RadioPopper - how do you find it? Am thinking of moving away from Skyport that are a left-over from my Eli days and since using Profoto now, there only a trigger. While PW makes sense for my AcuteB 600R, it would also be trigger only. The JrX units seem to have a good rep re: reliability and range and a JrX Trx+Rv pair is less than one Plus II.

I also am intrigued by the idea of using the JrX+Cube to be able to remotely control the power manually with some old Nikon SB-80DX units I have - hell, for an extra $30 for the Cube the ability to simply dial down a Nikon (or Canon) TTL compatible unit from the hotshoe is almost a no brainer - if it works.
Here's how I used it on the H4D/40 yesterday (see attached). Actually this works fine if you can just leave it on the flash ... thus the need for a couple more Skyports to avoid removing it. I added velcro to the bottom of the Stroboframe foot, and in combo with the bungie it's pretty secure and +/- adjustments are easy.

I really can't use a bracket because of the way I have the hand strap/shoulder strap rigged to a Arca Swiss type quick release plate. Weddings are so fast and furious that mobility becomes the priority. On-tripod for posed stuff, then to a monopod for candids, then to hand-held outdoors.

When I used the Leica M9, I didn't use on-camera fill. I got the 16' extension accessory and plugged the second fill light into the B port which my assistant held up behind me on a boom arm (BTW, that Interfit Boom arm really works well. I wouldn't put a Profoto Compac 1200 on the end of it, but for this kit it's perfect).

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hey Marc,

I looked closer at the Quadra, heads look really small and portable. It may be a good solution for weddings for those that don't want to carry bigger packs (like Pro-7b, or even AcuteB), and you won't run into speedlights shutting down on you :)
Have you tried attaching small softbox or BD, or are you mostly going to use it with standard reflectors and umbrellas?


BTW, thanks for the introduction ;)
Marcin, if you haven't seen these in person you really don't realize how small it all is. It really is a great alternative to speed lights for highly mobile off-camera.

As to softboxes or strip-lights ... I wouldn't hang anything off these ... they are just too small to bear any load. However, I DO have an idea how to do this.

In digging around my pile of studio junk I found one of those speed ring brackets to mount a shoe mount flash in a soft box. It is the speed ring bracket that attaches to the stand or light-stick boom arm and bears the load ... the Quadra head then just goes along for the ride. Now I have to find the soft-box that goes with this speed-ring :ROTF

-Marc

I may look at a regular Profoto speed-ring and see if I can modify it with a L bracket added in the proper place. Then I could use some of the smaller Profoto stuff I already have :thumbs:
 
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Ben Rubinstein

Active member
How are you finding the recycle time and the capacity in the real world Marc? Can you use the packs while they are plugged in for charging, i.e. as a regular non battery strobe?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
How are you finding the recycle time and the capacity in the real world Marc? Can you use the packs while they are plugged in for charging, i.e. as a regular non battery strobe?
Ben, you seem interested, so I'll try to give you a more in-depth with a wedding bias, as you have so kindly done with various subjects in the past:

I've only done the one shoot so far. I did a bit over 100 shots in about 2 hours not counting test firing before leaving and at the location (advertised number @ full power is 150 pops). About 50% of the shots were using 100% power level, either one head @ 400 w/s into a 60" umbrella to light backgrounds, or two heads with asymmetrical distribution (my location was a cave with fairly low ambient). The remaining was done at various power levels: usually 200 w/s ... with just a few all the way down to 25 w/s when using a smaller shoot-through on the light stick held close to the subject for fill. The battery still had plenty of juice left. I didn't have to use the second battery, but suspect I would at a full wedding and would say I'd swap batteries in the car before using it at a reception.

All of these shots were done with the box set to fast recycle, and with the reflector diffuser caps in place even when using a shoot through umbrella ... so I made it work a little harder than it need to.

Recycle was exactly as advertised, about two and a half seconds on 400 w/s @ fast recycle, a little over a second on 200 w/s, and seemingly instantaneous @ 100 w/s or less.

The box is auto dump, so when you make +/-adjustments the next flash is ready. I did notice that when I made the adjustments from the camera using the Skyport, the auto dump-to-ready recycle took longer than if I had the assistant do the +/-adjustment right on the box.

Range of the Skyport was good ... better than experiences with my Hensel radio, but no where that of a Pocket Wizard. This location was stacked to the ceiling with all kinds of carny machines , etc., and I once accidentally triggered a completely hidden strobe about 150 feet away while fiddling with the sync cord issue I mentioned earlier (advertised indoor distance is 164'). A reception hall would have to be pretty big for this not to work, but it is conceivable to exceed the range.

Yes, you can plug in the charger into a mains outlet and use the box like a standard generator ... but it doesn't charge the battery simultaneously. 1.5 hours for a full charge, and you can top it off any time with no ill effect.

My biggest question right now is whether I keep the second two head kit I secured from B&H. Obviously, setting lights at a reception would benefit from two separate 400 w/s units out of the way bounced into ceiling corners using an A-B channel to remotely control the level of each to light backgrounds .... then roaming with an on-camera TTL fill.

The other consideration would be whether I can adapt a larger beauty dish (or speed ring) to mount directly to a stand or boom arm with a L bracket to secure the Quadra head independently. That would really make this kit more usable for weddings and portraits.

-Marc
 

robmac

Well-known member
Marc,

Thanks - now makes sense to me. Only thing I could suggest to make it more secure would be the obvious gluing (PL Premium would be my suggestion - MUCH better grip than epoxy) a cold shoe to the of the Metz - which will not be that attractive re: resale. It would be a one way trip - once on (PL), it isn't (ever) coming off.

Using the Quadra head with a modifier, as you noticed, really requires a modifier that support it's own weight - then DIY'ing a bracket to hang the head off of it. The Q adpater is of little use. It, combined with the required Eli speedring, sets the Quadra flash tube back quite a distance from the inner base of a dish or box and it's robustness is less than confidence inspiring - my Demi just bopped up and down like a doll on a 'cuda dashboard as the adapter flexed with the slightest touch of the dish. Chimera Eli inserts have the least 'offset' or 'setback' but the adapter's 'setback' and strength remain an issue.

A Mola Setti or Euro dish (I'll omit the Mantti ;>) with it's integrated handle and mount (something my Demi lacks) would work nicely - you'd just need a solution to get the Quadra head tight against the base of the dish to get the tube where you want it - and seal the gap between the head and the dish opening.

If you want to try a Profoto mount - a 4" outside diameter ABS pipe coupler makes a perfect Profoto mount. The rubber collar clamps on to it like it was made in Sweden. The thick sidewall doesn't flex when you clamp the sleeve down and allows you SOME modest room to adjust the position of the light as well.

The speedlight bracket I made using one and some L bracket supports my 22" Demi with no issue. Unlike the Quadra adapter - no bobble-doll action. That said, no longer having a Quadra, I don't know if a head would fit in/could be married to the ABS coupler.

Would be curious as to what solutions you come up with.
 
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