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Thread: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

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    Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Hi guys,

    hoping that someone can help me out. I shoot mainly table top stuff, food, still life and occasionally some ppl.

    you can check out my site here, ronaldtsang.com

    I'm looking to get some new lights as my business is expanding. I'm currently using Alien Bees and as much as I enjoy using them, I want to portray a more professional appearance (sounds terrible I know!).

    I have been looking at the three options listed above. There are pros and cons for all of them and I am having a difficult time deciding.

    The Profoto D1

    Pro : flash duration is faster than senso, offers air remote, digital adjustments, easy to find in rental

    con : pricing while cheaper than bron is still relatively expensive. Need to use a frost dome for some modifiers and will lose light output because of that. Mono head, which is heavy

    Broncolor senso

    Pro : love the design, its a small and compact kit, and will work well when I shoot interiors on location. Has the most power among all options. Litos heads are also compact and I like the magic wand (is that what you call it) to control direction of light, would be buying into the bron family and really like the move packs for future expandability of my kit.

    Con : Most expensive of the bunch. Slow flash duration, I'm afraid if i do pours for shoots that it won't be able to stop motion well. Need to buy the RFS remote. Litos heads are not compatible with other packs, just senso and maybe move later in the future

    Einstein 640

    Pro : Love the flash duration and the colour temp. Also like the commander unit remote that you can get for it. Looks better than Alien bees and offers a high range of output than I'm accustomed to. Modifiers are cheap and the overall cost of the system won't break the bank. Also like the design of the foldable softbox.

    Con : Power is the lowest. I had a shoot recently where I used 1 2400 pack and 2 1200 pack and it was just enough power. Not sure if it will work well with the Einstein.

    Overall I'm just not sure how to go about this. I have set 8K budget for this system and ideally I would want to have 4 heads and a couple of softboxes.

    Hope someone can help!

    Ron

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    If you predominantly are taking pictures of stationary objects ("table top stuff, food, still life and occasionally some ppl"), the Einsteins should be fine and you can save yourself a lot of money. If you occasionally need a setup for motion where flash duration is important, why not just rent the Bron or Profoto kits and charge back to your clients?

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I do like the Einsteins, just do not think there is enough power but the colortemp/flash duration is tempting me

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Einsteins have some very nice features. Broncolor is great, but make sure the modifiers and repair costs fit your budget. I think you need a very good reason to get something other than a D1 right now, the seem like a great starting point. FWIW I have a mix of Hensel and Dynalite, which are both great choices too.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    The D1's imo, are too heavy to put a large modifier on and go up on a C stand. I also prefer a dome instead of a flat diffuser, but apparently you can purchase one. I've used the Einsteins for a few jobs now, and must say there pretty good tools. The cost and availability of user replaceable items, such as flash tubes and modeling lights are my first reason for choosing a strobe. The Einsteins have excelled in this regard. My intention was to wait for a Profoto buy1 get one sale, but the Einsteins have proven to be extremely portable and produce a beautiful, fully controllable light source with outstanding modifiers. Have you priced a Hensel or Profoto modifier? Yikes.

    You have a fairly decent budget, but to get the approximate speed of a E640 you'll need to consider the new Profoto Pro 8a...I think.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Seems you are comparing apples to oranges ... mono heads verses presumably a 3 head Broncolor Senso A2 Pack kit.

    I looked at your work, nice stuff. It seems you are expanding your business, and perhaps it is time to think ahead so you aren't faced with the same upgrade dilemma again in future?

    Like you have discovered, I've found that there is no substitute for power. Table top at the lowest ISO (best IQ), and stopping down (for DOF) can place real world demands on modified light. My work-horse studio generator is a Profoto D4/2400 ... with supplemental lighting (backgrounds, accent grids, etc.) coming from a set of D1 500s, and a set of D1/1000s. I also have a second D4/2400 when needed.

    A D1 mono-head can be used on a studio C stand with any modifier regardless of size because the Profoto mount is arguably the most secure in the business, and the only one that allows you to slide the modifier back and forth on the head for different modification effects. However, it isn't conducive to use on an overhead extended boom arm with a big modifier on it, any more than most any mono head is. I use lighter weight/smaller profoto pack heads for such applications.

    Duration is a dicey subject and a bit hard to weigh the pros and cons. If pouring liquids is the acid test, then you have to determine how often you actually do this so the tail isn't wagging the dog. Getting a short flash duration that depends on really low light output can be a trap if the pour is part of an over-all composition, as opposed to isolated ... leading to multi-pops and time consuming blending in PS which NEVER quite looks right IMO.

    I use both my D4 packs and a twin tube head plugged into the D sockets of both ... providing 300 to 1200 W/s of light at the shortest flash duration at any given level of light output. Recycle is also extremely quick with this. When the duration doesn't seem it'll be short enough (hasn't happened yet), then I'd rent something that will for the day.

    Modifier costs are a red harring ... almost all modifiers offer almost all speed-rings for almost all strobe systems. Once you buy a good modifier, you can use it on any strobe system in future. I use Elinchrom Rotalux modifiers on both my Profoto and Hensel Porty heads. Also, the newer Profoto RFi modifiers are priced much lower than the previous RFs and can be used on most popular strobes.

    Speculating on your $8000 budget: A NEW D1 AIR 3 head set (2 1000W/s, 1 500 W/s, etc.) is $5,200. Add a 2400 W/s powerpack with a head for boom work or key light like a B&H 9+ used Acute2 2400 with Acute ABS head @ $2,370. That's 4,900 W/s from 4 heads including 2400 W/s from one head and 1,000 W/s from two others when needed ... or the equivalent of 8 PCB Einstein's with a max of 640 W/s from any given head/modifier ... which is a statistic that would immediately eliminate these for me even if they were free, as I've maxed out my D4 2400 all to often.

    Not easy to figure out, that's for sure.

    -Marc

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I have not used the Einstein's but have used all the others.

    I would strongly suggest a mix of the Acute 2400 or 1200 packs and a couple heads with a pair of 500 w/s D1's. I had the Senso kit for a month and it's annoying that even though it's "digital" you still have to adjust output with the rocker switches. You can change it a couple stops remotely, but other than that you have to go back to the pack. Kind of defeats the purpose. Plus the Bron modifiers are a lot more expensive than the Profoto ones.

    If you get a Profoto acute pack now, you can upgrade to a D4 pack later if you want. The heads will work in both. You can also get an acute twin head, which will give you much shorter flash duration. The prices on the used acute stuff is very reasonable and will give you the most bang for your buck. The D1's are great and I have had no issues hanging them from the top of my backdrop with a 1x4' softbox. I probably would not put them on a boom though. The traditional Profoto light modifiers are great, ie reflectors, beauty dish. You can use any softbox with a profoto head. If you really want to splurge the broncolor Para's are truly amazing. But that would be further down the road for you and you can use Profoto heads in them anyway.

    Feel free to pm me if you have any other questions or want to chat on the phone.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    Definitely think that power is an issue. Like I mentioned my last shoot I was using a combined 4800w/s in 3 packs.

    Looks like it might want to try something along the lines of

    D4 2400 Air (I like digital readouts for my power settings) with two heads + 2 D1 500w/s heads. I like the idea of Profoto because I will be able to use their usb adaptor and control my power outputs through Capture One (which I use).

    Really cool to hear that you can use twin tube head in 1 d4 pack, never even thought of that.

    I guess the real question I should see if I am set on this path is if I should purchase the D1 heads first and wait for a used D4 air pack to become available or if I should get the D4 pack/head first?

    The only draw back is that I won't be able to use the acute heads with the new B4 or any pro packs?

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    The D4 is a nice option, besides for water action you could supplement and use the E640's as key, and color balance with Profoto. Profoto usually offers some kind of buy a D4/acute get a head free or something like that. I've asked Profoto a timeline, but they never give clues. Good shooting.

    Cheers-
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 17th April 2013 at 10:25.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Hi guys,

    The Profoto D1

    Pro : flash duration is faster than senso, offers air remote, digital adjustments, easy to find in rental

    con : pricing while cheaper than bron is still relatively expensive. Need to use a frost dome for some modifiers and will lose light output because of that. Mono head, which is heavy

    Ron
    Flash duration is short or long, not fast or slow.

    The D1 has it's shortest duration at full power while the Acute and D4 packs have their shortest duration at lowest power setting.

    I use D1s with domes on top of any stand I feel like. They attach securely and aren't going anywhere if you lock them down. Using a security cable on any light you're placing over talent or product is always a good practice. The domes don't reduce output, they do distribute the output differently, in a good way.

    Profoto's mount is the best in the industry. PCB's mount is about as bad as they get. Broncolor has a decent mount, but it's different on their portable stuff which is stupid.

    Cheap replacement parts and flash tubes have never been an issue for me in over a decade of using Profoto Pro 6/7, Acute and D1s. I've never needed either.

    Broncolor is one of those companies that has a great product but still suffers from a strange disconnect in their design. After all their power packs over the years, and there have been many, you'd think they'd have the Senso down. They don't. It's half rocker switches between banks of capacitors and half voltage regulation controls with a digital readout. Shortest duration is at lowest power output. The Senso is over priced and modifiers are stupidly expensive.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    Definitely think that power is an issue. Like I mentioned my last shoot I was using a combined 4800w/s in 3 packs.

    Looks like it might want to try something along the lines of

    D4 2400 Air (I like digital readouts for my power settings) with two heads + 2 D1 500w/s heads. I like the idea of Profoto because I will be able to use their usb adaptor and control my power outputs through Capture One (which I use).

    Really cool to hear that you can use twin tube head in 1 d4 pack, never even thought of that.

    I guess the real question I should see if I am set on this path is if I should purchase the D1 heads first and wait for a used D4 air pack to become available or if I should get the D4 pack/head first?

    The only draw back is that I won't be able to use the acute heads with the new B4 or any pro packs?
    Well, there goes your budget

    Basically, what your are thinking is what I'm using.

    I tend to use the pack heads in larger modifiers, boomed mods, and my larger Molas. I like one D1 without the dome installed for table-top grid work using the 5, 10, 20 slip on D1 Grids because I can sneak it in smaller spaces to place an accent light on products ... sounds insignificant, but it really is helpful in practice.

    I would think that with the Profoto B4, you'd want to opt for the more compact Pro-B Plus head anyway for optimal location ease. FYI, Profoto lists the Pro-B Plus heads as compatible with all D4 generators ... but not the Acute2 series. However it is rated at 1200 W/s with a 100W modeling light, so I guess it'd be a supplementary head when used on a D4 2400 pack.

    Do not underestimate the importance of the mount system. I've used most of them and it can become a real source of irritation long term ... I actually dumped an entire Elinchrom system because of it, and just tolerate the Hensel approach ... even though it is secure, it is harder to mount larger boxes unless you remove the head from the stand and put it on the mod. The Profoto mount simply spoils you.

    I am a huge fan of the Elinchrom Rotalux modifiers with their quick release set-up/teardown feature. Last year Elinchrom started offering the Rotalux QR speed-rings in many direct mounts including Profoto. Great time saver in studio, great for transport to location.

    Marc

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I don't know what you're shooting with, but have you considered a current camera that would allow you to work at higher ISOs ?

    Then the power of something like the B4 becomes quite practical.
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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Hi guys,

    some good thoughts.

    I'm wondering, how I should start this path.

    Should I go with 2 500w/s + 1 1000w/s d1 heads? There is this kit

    Profoto D1 Air 3 Head Studio Kit - 1- 1000W/s / 2- 500W/s 901087

    There is also a used kit at my local shop that is 1 Acute 1200 pack with 2 acute/d4 heads. then I'd get 2 500w/s d1 heads. Would give me 4 heads total, and then rent the D4 2400 pack as I need it until I see a good deal for it.

    For softboxes I was thinking of going Chimera because thats what the old studio I worked at had, but I'll look more into the Elinchrom Rotalux. Only concern there is that I tend to use rather large softboxes, think

    Chimera Shallow Super Pro Plus Softbox, Silver - Large 1245 B&H

    Thanks for all your help guys. I'm feeling comfortable with this direction as you guys have given me good feedback.

    Ron

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    I think I'm ready to start my kit.

    My question is how I should go about it.

    Should I start with the following D1 kit?

    2 500w/s + 1 1000w/s?

    Profoto D1 Air 3 Head Studio Kit - 1- 1000W/s / 2- 500W/s 901087

    Another option I have is my local shop has an Acute 1200 pack with 2 d4 heads. I can also then get 2 d1 500 w/s. This has the benefit of having two heads that will be good for the D4 packs when I get it.

    With either option, i would rent the D4 2400 pack until I see a good deal.

    For softboxes I was thinking of going with Chimera. I'll read more about the elinchrom rotalux, but they dont seem to have one at the size I like to use

    Chimera Shallow Super Pro Plus Softbox, Silver - Large 1245 B&H

    Can't wait to start using these lights.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I use Profoto C600s, D1s and Acute packs and personally like a mix of monolights and pack+heads. Monolights are nice for quick setup, takedown, and tucking into a small case, etc. Pack & head combos are nice in that Acute heads are tiny and weigh next to nothing and thus boom with no effort and pack can utilize ringlights, dual-lead heads, etc. The heads can also be used across 4 packs - Acute 1200, 2400, D4 and the Acute B (if turn modelling light off on head or swap to lower wattage Acute B bulb)

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    The D1 three head kit sounds like a great start, and as Marc suggested, you could use a 2400 w/s power pack and smaller head for boom work. I'm probably going to add this option to my studio too. The Air remote from Profoto is the best i've used, it's range and battery are unequaled imo. My experience with Einstein's has been excellent, but most always used on remote locations far from a power source. For that kind of photography I highly recommend it. I recently did a shoot in Washington DC, and the wind was gusting to 25 to 30mph, no I didn't use the PLM, but the high output modifier I did use was secure the entire shoot.
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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks, I'm going to start with 2 D1 1000 and 1 D1 500 as a kit.

    Looking forward to picking out light modifiers.

    Btw, Should I be getting a zoom reflector even though it is built in? I'm getting a dome for sure since I want to use it with larger than medium softboxes.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Thanks, I'm going to start with 2 D1 1000 and 1 D1 500 as a kit.

    Looking forward to picking out light modifiers.

    Btw, Should I be getting a zoom reflector even though it is built in? I'm getting a dome for sure since I want to use it with larger than medium softboxes.
    Actually it isn't built in. Profoto made the D1s so there is a built-in 77 reflector more suitable for umbrellas, but it doesn't zoom, and you really need a Spill Kill reflector for more control with umbrellas anyway.

    Zooming a modifier means you slide the reflector along the body of the D1 to change the degree of coverage from 65 to 110 ... there are marks on the side of Profoto heads so you can repeat the effect again later.

    IMO, the Zoom Reflector-2 is the one to get, since it has a lip to take grids. The older Zoom Reflector didn't have the lip, so you had to buy a separate grid reflector. Now they are one.

    -Marc

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I would highly recommend the zoom reflector-2 it is much better in every way. The original ones were very flimsy and easily dent, as well as not directly taking grids. The only thing I want to point out is that by going with the two 1000w/s D1's you are basically paying an extra $1000 for 1 extra stop of light. Depending on your studio size, etc. You might be able to get that extra stop by simply moving the lights closer to your subject.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks for the clarification guys. Do you think it's better to buy grids for the zoom reflector 2? Or get the d1 specific grids?

    The kit comes with a 20 degree grid with two softboxes. I was thinking of getting the dome and 2 zoom reflector 2.

    Any suggestions from you guys? I'm looking to get a large softbox but not set on what to get yet.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification guys. Do you think it's better to buy grids for the zoom reflector 2? Or get the d1 specific grids?

    The kit comes with a 20 degree grid with two softboxes. I was thinking of getting the dome and 2 zoom reflector 2.

    Any suggestions from you guys? I'm looking to get a large softbox but not set on what to get yet.
    Which kit is this? Is it this Profoto 3 light kit?

    Profoto D1 Air 3 Head Studio Kit - 2- 1000W/s / 1- 500W/s 901088

    If so, it is a 10 D1 grid.

    RE: Grids

    I have all three D1 slip on grids, and leave one D1 with the flat glass diffuser for their use. However, my system is mature and more complete with two D4/2400 generators and a host of D4 heads, an army of unused zoom reflectors that came with D4 heads

    IMO, the Zoom Reflector 2 is a far more versatile tool for you at this stage because it accepts more accessories ... including a 5 grid not available in the D1 grid series, and stuff like filter holders, barndoors, etc.

    The caveat to the Zoom Reflector 2 is that you are forced to buy the much more expensive Profoto grids as opposed to the just as good ones from almost anyone else that fit the older Profoto 7" grid reflector ... read the reviews here:

    Profoto 7" Grid Reflector for Profoto Flash Heads 100705

    I'd say just get one zoom reflector for now, and get two domes for the D1s because you'll need the domes in softboxes or a beauty dish.

    RE: Modifiers

    Consider a 20" beauty dish

    Profoto White Softlight "Beauty Dish" Reflector 100608

    Soft-boxes:

    Here's a Profoto 4' X 6' RFi that is bundled with a 50 honeycomb fabric grid for $508, plus the RFi Profoto speed-ring @ $110.

    Profoto RFi 4.0 x 6.0' Softbox with Grid Kit B&H Photo Video

    Be aware that regular large softboxes like this RFi are NOT easy to set-up and tear down, and are best left set-up if you have the room.

    For easier set-up/tear down, I recommend the 69" Elinchrome Rotalux Octabox @ $410, plus the Profoto Rotalux speed-ring @ $120.

    Elinchrom EL 26186 69" Rotalux Octa Softbox EL 26186 B&H

    However, any big soft-box is NOT easy to set-up and tear down, especially if working alone on location. That is when something like this 65" XL Parabolic can be a God sent ... including the front diffuser for the XL.

    Profoto XL Umbrella - White (65" / 165 cm) 100326 B&H Photo

    Lastly, do not expect to put any of these big modifiers on the stands that come with the kit. Look to buying nice sturdy C stands.

    -Marc

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Agreed, the stands that come with these kits are garbage. B&H has Matthew stands in many sizes. Add a couple of sand bags (shipped empty, get play sand at local store), and you're good for most modifiers on a vertical and slight boom. One more plug for PB...there grids are as good as any i've used (Hensel, Profoto), and a 7in. grid cost less than $20. Same construction imo. Also, i'm not sure of speed ring adapters, but PB soft boxes are incredibly durable and easy to set up/ take down. The stitching and fabric are really strong. I can sometimes be a lighting gear snob, but some of the Paul Buff gear has really been quite good with their modifiers.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    What are the best large softboxes for setup and tear down? Do they exist?

    Also anyone know if the Profoto XL Umbrella works with Elinchrom Ranger or quadra via a speedring or mount?

    Thanks!
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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    I don't really use large softboxes. Mainly the broncolor para. But there are some softboxes that have Velcro on the corners that serve as a quick release. So when you want to break it down you pull on the and the rods slide through, releasing the tension. The photoflex light domes have this feature and they are very reasonably priced. Also, the photek soft lighter umbrella is another gorgeous lighting tool that is really affordable. Most umbrella's work with any strobe same with soft boxes, as long as you have the correct speedring...

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Marc, thank you so much for the detailed response, and everyone else as well for contributing!

    You're right Marc, it is a 10 degree grid. I think I'll get the following to start

    2x1000 + 1x500 kit
    1 zoom reflector 2
    2 domes
    1 USB Air Sync

    Also going to try the paul c buff large soft box.

    Paul C. Buff - Foldable Softboxes

    doing some research, people have had success changing the speed ring adaptor with

    SP Studio Systems Speed Ring for Profoto SPARPR1 B&H Photo Video

    Should be a good start. Then when I get more jobs, I can either get a d4 2400 pack or get more d1 heads if power is sufficient.

    Looking forward to all of this. The studio that I rent has tons of C-stands, so it should be sufficient for grip and I can avoid the kit stands for heavy modifiers.

    I am also looking to get a beauty dish with grid.

    Thanks for all the help everyone, I feel like I'm heading in the right direction both short and long term.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Marc, thanks for the lengthy reply and everyone else who chipped in.

    I think I'm going to start with the following...

    2x1000w/s + 1x500 w/s kit
    1 zoom reflector 2
    2 domes
    1 usb air sync

    For softbox I think I'm going to try Paul Buff's giant softbox along with the grid.

    Paul C. Buff - Foldable Softboxes

    I have read that people have had success using this speed ring adaptor with paul buff's speed ring

    SP Studio Systems Speed Ring for Profoto SPARPR1 B&H Photo Video

    The studio that I rent when I'm shooting has tons of C-stands to use, so I'm not so concerned about grip, and also means I don't have to depend on the kit stands for anything really heavy.

    Now I'm looking at a beauty dish with grid. Not sure if the Profoto one that was linked above offers a grid.

    Thanks for everyone's help! I feel like this is a good direction for both my short and long term needs.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Yes,
    You can get a grid for the profoto BD. I prefer the white BD with the grid.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks for clarifying Josh! wow grids are expensive hehe

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Yeah, but its really nice, well worth it. You can even put a diffuser over beauty dish, then put the grid on.so it's even softer but doesn't stray and still has a bit of an edge... As well as controlling the light spill more without the diffuser.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Thanks for clarifying Josh! wow grids are expensive hehe
    Check out Honey Grids ... They make 25 ones for the Profoto Beauty dish and most others ... in White or Black (the difference is demo'ed on their site):

    HoneyGrids

    -Marc

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640


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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Check out Honey Grids ... They make 25 ones for the Profoto Beauty dish and most others ... in White or Black (the difference is demo'ed on their site):

    HoneyGrids
    Just be aware that they are plastic, not metal, and will change shape, as in sagging when you angle them down.

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Do air cushioned c-stands exist, any recommendations?
    ___________________
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    POPHOTO

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Thanks for the help guys! looks like I'm going to rent the profoto beauty dish when my lights get it. the 3 head kit is a special order for my local shop, so I won't get them for another 3-4 weeks

    Thanks for the Kupo link, to be honest I've only ever heard of Manfrotto and Avenger, so this helps!

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    Re: Profoto D1/Senso A4/Einstein 640

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey01 View Post
    Thanks for the help guys! looks like I'm going to rent the profoto beauty dish when my lights get it. the 3 head kit is a special order for my local shop, so I won't get them for another 3-4 weeks

    Thanks for the Kupo link, to be honest I've only ever heard of Manfrotto and Avenger, so this helps!
    Kupo is the Chinese knock off of Mattews/Manfrotto/Avenger.

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