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Thread: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

  1. #51
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    I agree and i think truthfully 6 micron is the smallest we can go but obviously I am not a engineer and don't know that real answer but I think we are coming extremely close to hitting the wall. Obviously any very good lens is going to produce here and these sensors that are hitting the streets from Dalsa and Kodak are very very very good . In this 6 micron area we have in Phase P65 and P40 Dalsa and than the S2 and H50 Kodak. If there is any real difference in these sensor I would point directly on how they render color more than anything else. I really liked the P40+ from my testing and was better than my P30+ reason I am looking at it and the S2 is in that camp as well along with the Hassy 50. Now I think we hit the point to start looking at the feature sets , improving the bodies of Phase and Hassy and offer some nice features like the S2. 2 card shooting and a list of other features. Obviously these are different and some still want removable backs so that game needs a update to it. I certainly am not shy about saying so either. Phase needs a new body no question about it and these kinds of things is what a lot of us are looking for going forward. I love MF shooting but I also love this industry and for all of them to survive and prosper the game needs to be upped and start giving us stuff we are after in the features. I know it is a extremely small market and hard to get resources to improve but some things should have gone down in pricing as well with regards to sensors which is the biggest expense in these boxes.

    Even this P30+ is outstanding for a 31mpx sensor as you can see how decent a back it is even at 2 or 3 or longer in age. The new sensors are better but not earth shattering so OEM's need to look at improving the surroundings of the sensor with better feature sets
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Looking at the very few files that have been presented for the S2, and realizing that most were shot at ISO 100 or 200, and at smaller apertures on the lenses in the studio shots, it is still rather impressive. The colors and details look very good regardless of processing. That is a good sign, as it suggests the files may be quite robust to allow things to be processed in a variety of ways, yet not losing detail nor character. Pluses in my book.

    Still waiting to see more natural light shots, at higher ISOs and hopefully at wider apertures to get a better feel for what this beast can do. In the MR review, it was commented that since the units that were being used in Germany were pre-production and the firmware had not yet been finalized, it was suggested that ISO 100 and 200 were to be used, as those profiles were evidently locked down already. It may be a while (October?) until we get so see some folks pushing the S2 a bit more toward the edges. Cannot wait for that.

    In the meantime, it is looking, at first blush, like the S2 is a most capable performer in the prime market target zone of studio camera. Let's see how broad that becomes, because it is looking pretty good at this point.

    LJ

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Well, according to Michael (Reichmann) on Luminous Landscape in his S2 review post of today, it looks like folks may be able to use C1 to do their processing.....at some point. Check this statement from the MR post on LL:

    "There have been some early reports that Phase One will restrict access to Leica S2 files from within C1. I have queried this directly with the CEO of Phase One and have been told unequivocally that this is not the case, and that Leica S2 files will not by blocked in any way for processing in Capture One."

    Now, that does not say anything about there being "optimized" profiles or other such things, but folks using C1 should be able to create their own profiles to get the sorts of results they may be looking for. This all remains to be seen when it actually happens, but at least this should reduce some of the anti-LR anxiety that some folks may have.

    LJ
    Obviously that is good news for the C1 junkies. Workflow and raw processing matter a great deal to Pro's so if the C1 guys can continue like they do it makes it much easier
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Looking at the very few files that have been presented for the S2, and realizing that most were shot at ISO 100 or 200, and at smaller apertures on the lenses in the studio shots, it is still rather impressive. The colors and details look very good regardless of processing. That is a good sign, as it suggests the files may be quite robust to allow things to be processed in a variety of ways, yet not losing detail nor character. Pluses in my book.

    Still waiting to see more natural light shots, at higher ISOs and hopefully at wider apertures to get a better feel for what this beast can do. In the MR review, it was commented that since the units that were being used in Germany were pre-production and the firmware had not yet been finalized, it was suggested that ISO 100 and 200 were to be used, as those profiles were evidently locked down already. It may be a while (October?) until we get so see some folks pushing the S2 a bit more toward the edges. Cannot wait for that.

    In the meantime, it is looking, at first blush, like the S2 is a most capable performer in the prime market target zone of studio camera. Let's see how broad that becomes, because it is looking pretty good at this point.

    LJ
    That is very normal and Jack and i were also told to only go to ISO 100 or 200 when we did the P65+ pre production unit as well and I caught that in the reviews and hopefully soon which Christian mentioned to me the final software is pretty much ready and hopefully soon we will see some of those images with it and higher ISO stuff. I'm very happy with ISO 800 but just the other day I pushed my P30+ to 1600 and yes i had noise but I also was screwed to the wall without it too becuase I was NOT allowed to shoot with a flash . Here is a sample of that nightmare. Now I could easily have run this through Dfine but did not. So yes we will need to get crazy sometimes on high ISO stuff.

    This shot was a bear to do shot with the P30+ at ISO 1600 with 150mm at F4 1/60 of a second but I did use my secret weapon a MONOPOD. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Guy,
    I think that worked out nicely. I seriously do not think a client would ever complain over this type of difficult capture. It is an event shot under difficult conditions, but you did a very nice job here. Yes, the monopod can be a wonderful friend ;-) I also see no issue with using things like Dfine or Noise Ninja for stuff like this.

    LJ

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Thanks LJ and i actually put that monopod in my trunk of my car when I go to a shoot . With a DSLR I may have gotten away without it but not MF stuff. You need some support sometimes. I agree reason I did not use Dfine is I thought I hit a home run under those conditions and i also warned my client it was a nightmare to pull off. Now it may have been easier because of the design of the S2 here but I still would have used a monopod . The S2 with it's glass is still heavy but it maybe a easier camera to hand hold as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    MONOPOD
    I use one, too, and I can go to 1/30'' with the P21+ (but not with the P45) as the mirror of the Contax is quite soft.
    As we are on the subject: has anyone ever tried the "Go Pod"?
    http://gopod.wordpress.com/product-shots/

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    No but it looks pretty interesting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No but it looks pretty interesting
    yes. might also be helpful if you shoot "handheld" in vertical composition... with an L bracket.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Thomas,
    I had looked at this device, but thought for the kind of shooting that I do, it would be in my way more than not. The hardest part is getting rid of it when you do not need it. At least the monopod can be collapsed down to a small, thick stick that can go back into a bag, or hang from a belt without being in the way as much. Just my thoughts on it.

    LJ

    P.S The equivalent of sorts that I do use it a small pouch that hangs from a belt and into which I can place the foot end of a monopod. Provides essentially the same sort of support, but from your waist, not shoulders, and is much easier to get the monopod collapsed and out of the way when you do not need it.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    The hardest part is getting rid of it when you do not need it.
    makes sense... thanks.

  12. #62
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    we call it DOF

    sorry Thomas I can't substitute muddy for DOF

  13. #63
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Michael R's report is online incl. a 100% crop as well: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...s2-first.shtml

    edit: on the Leica Forum someone posted a link to a similar capture with the P40+:
    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...76-post15.html
    here are two more:
    http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dc...13/117/017.jpg
    http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dc...13/117/018.jpg
    P40+ images are not f8 for sure they are as you like to call it (rich) with DOF so practically I'm not going to selectively pick and choose what part of the P40+ file I like better the P40+ files look straight forward good

    but S2 examples look obviously better as it separates the details, most importantly hair even in the shadows evenly where most DBs just fail to deliver

    "even though I like the selective and rich BOKEH I don't think it helps in this kind of situation"

  14. #64
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Michael's and Davids shots are also with more contrasting lighting and mine and those others are using a little softer approach
    I agree, that definitely takes away extra juice from the Phase files

  15. #65
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    at the moment my thoughts are how do we deal with Platinum Service Package?

    it seems a little hot to even touch it

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    It does and until we get them together rocking on the same wavelength it's pretty tough to compare. I do like what I see so far. As always I'm after the best machine i can get and afford. Labels really don't mean much to me and i have switched systems on a dime before but it has to be justified in my mind first. I'm looking for facts not fiction.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    at the moment my thoughts are how do we deal with Platinum Service Package?

    it seems a little hot to even touch it
    This is a tough one, it really is . My first thoughts are exactly this it is a brand new system out of the box with no S history behind it answer= get the warranty. Part 2 Expensive answer , could buy a lens instead. That is just a basic thought and it really is more involved than the first basic thought. Another issue is the backup and only a S2 can back it up. The Hassy, Contax, Hy6,Phase bodies are basically cheap compared to it and as most of us know it is extremely rare the actually back goes down. Bodies yes backs not really and the S2 being integrated complicates that decision a lot. You almost have to have that warranty in sense if your a working Pro. Obviously again this all depends on what you do and what gear you may already have and may not need a overnight camera. Very complicated and also very personal to your needs.

    Seriously this is a thread all by itself because it is so involved to personal needs and also takes on the risk and reward issue . Very tough call
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  18. #68
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It does and until we get them together rocking on the same wavelength it's pretty tough to compare. I do like what I see so far. As always I'm after the best machine i can get and afford. Labels really don't mean much to me and i have switched systems on a dime before but it has to be justified in my mind first. I'm looking for facts not fiction.
    exactly

    label in terms of trust has a lot to do for me and I think so far Phase is at the top not sure is it due to their own efforts or their dealers efforts!

    obviously Capture Integration would be my choice

    if others think there are others of the same kind please respond

  19. #69
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This is a tough one, it really is . My first thoughts are exactly this it is a brand new system out of the box with no S history behind it answer= get the warranty. Part 2 Expensive answer , could buy a lens instead. That is just a basic thought and it really is more involved than the first basic thought. Another issue is the backup and only a S2 can back it up. The Hassy, Contax, Hy6,Phase bodies are basically cheap compared to it and as most of us know it is extremely rare the actually back goes down. Bodies yes backs not really and the S2 being integrated complicates that decision a lot. You almost have to have that warranty in sense if your a working Pro. Obviously again this all depends on what you do and what gear you may already have and may not need a overnight camera. Very complicated and also very personal to your needs.

    Seriously this is a thread all by itself because it is so involved to personal needs and also takes on the risk and reward issue . Very tough call
    I own 2x 1Ds mkIIIs, 2x 5d mkIIs and Dx3

    one single good and logical thing about these cameras is they are making money so I can't possibly sell them unless something logically better comes on the market

    I wonder how much it could cost insurance to replace the S2 and lenses in case they break or.. it looks to me like it may be cheaper than S2 Platinum Service Package?

    actually Platinum Service Package could be a deal breaker for me

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    P40+ images are not f8 for sure they are as you like to call it (rich) with DOF so practically I'm not going to selectively pick and choose what part of the P40+ file I like better the P40+ files look straight forward good
    but S2 examples look obviously better as it separates the details, most importantly hair even in the shadows evenly where most DBs just fail to deliver
    It's very understandable why one would want to make these comparisons right now. However, it's just too early - there is no good source of information right now on head-to-head comparisons.

    Until you have a raw file from each system (and it must be the production - ready to ship - S2) of a similar subject matter from a trusted non-leica-fan source there is just no meaning to the comparisons.

    This specific case
    - subject size is so different that trying to tell the resolved detail of something like hair between the two systems is without meaning
    - the focal length of the lens of the Phase file is not listed nor is in the metadata
    - both are processed files so different levels of sharpening, noise reduction and JPG compression are in play
    - there is no reference to what software the Phase file was processed in; C1 handles Phase files best for micro-detail and detail in the shadows
    - etc etc etc

    Trust me. I REALLY want to start making these comparisons; but until there is 1) a shipping system with final firmware and 2) a drop on the embargo of raw files - it's an exercise in futility.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    exactly

    label in terms of trust has a lot to do for me and I think so far Phase is at the top not sure is it due to their own efforts or their dealers efforts!

    obviously Capture Integration would be my choice

    if others think there are others of the same kind please respond
    Right now I have a lot of trust in Phase and more importantly my dealer which happens to be CI with Dave, Doug, Steve and Chris. First we are good friends but more importantly they take care of there customers and give you 110 percent support. Jack and I invite them to our workshops because of this type of support. We honestly want our attendees to have a great experience working with these folks for sales, support and service if that is what they chose to do and absolutely no pressure to buy or not which is very important to us, they are there to learn.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    It's very understandable why one would want to make these comparisons right now. However, it's just too early - there is no good source of information right now on head-to-head comparisons.

    Until you have a raw file from each system (and it must be the production - ready to ship - S2) of a similar subject matter from a trusted non-leica-fan source there is just no meaning to the comparisons.

    This specific case
    - subject size is so different that trying to tell the resolved detail of something like hair between the two systems is without meaning
    - the focal length of the lens of the Phase file is not listed nor is in the metadata
    - both are processed files so different levels of sharpening, noise reduction and JPG compression are in play
    - there is no reference to what software the Phase file was processed in; C1 handles Phase files best for micro-detail and detail in the shadows
    - etc etc etc

    Trust me. I REALLY want to start making these comparisons; but until there is 1) a shipping system with final firmware and 2) a drop on the embargo of raw files - it's an exercise in futility.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Absolutely totally agree. I have been saying this for months you can toot a good horn but until we see the real horsepower it is meaningless.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  23. #73
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    It's very understandable why one would want to make these comparisons right now. However, it's just too early - there is no good source of information right now on head-to-head comparisons.

    Until you have a raw file from each system (and it must be the production - ready to ship - S2) of a similar subject matter from a trusted non-leica-fan source there is just no meaning to the comparisons.
    its hard to stay without being bias unless you sell both or all products involved
    also knowing and being familiar with both products is imperative

    regardless of bias RAW files will tells more than we sometimes like to see or hear




    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post

    This specific case
    - subject size is so different that trying to tell the resolved detail of something like hair between the two systems is without meaning
    - the focal length of the lens of the Phase file is not listed nor is in the metadata
    - both are processed files so different levels of sharpening, noise reduction and JPG compression are in play
    - there is no reference to what software the Phase file was processed in; C1 handles Phase files best for micro-detail and detail in the shadows
    - etc etc etc
    subject to size is different but its all we got for now and anyways when I was comparing hair threads details I said I'm not going to be selective with P40+ obviously because of DOF but I have experienced muddy look in the shadows with hair regardless of DBs Leaf, Hassy or Phase used especially with brunettes

    and I think both of us agree that Phase files could be shot to look better but in this case Red Dot shows more than just the usual overpriced tag



    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Trust me. I REALLY want to start making these comparisons; but until there is 1) a shipping system with final firmware and 2) a drop on the embargo of raw files - it's an exercise in futility.
    I agree, hopefully we will have something in the near future

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Oops... Sorry to David for calling him Dale. I played trumpet for a living for about a decade and every time I see his last name "Farkas", I think of Phil Farkas, principal hornist for years and years with the chicago symphony... and then I don't pay attention to what I type

    Sorry David!
    Hey Shelby

    I was a subscriber to the CSO for many years and my remembrance was that Adolf Herseth was the principal horn since the days of Fritz Reiner. I believe he retired in the early 90's. Is Phil Farkas his replacement or was he from a much earlier time?

    Woody

  25. #75
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Ah... but you confuse instruments. Herseth was principal trumpet FOREVER, and I believe still plays a tiny bit with the CSO. Farkas was principal Horn (some call French Horn). Some of those early Reiner recordings are FANTASTIC. They've all been reissued as SACD recordings as well.

    I did a masters in music performance in the mid-90's at Notre Dame (indiana, not france, lol) and actually drove into Chicago (oak Park, actually) once a week and took trumpet lessons in the basement of the house of the then 2nd trumpet in the CSO, Bill Scarlett. I'm an architect/photographer now and didn't even realize I was just down the street from Frank Lloyd Wright's studio.

    I need to watch it or I'll REALLY push this thread OT.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey Shelby

    I was a subscriber to the CSO for many years and my remembrance was that Adolf Herseth was the principal horn since the days of Fritz Reiner. I believe he retired in the early 90's. Is Phil Farkas his replacement or was he from a much earlier time?

    Woody

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Michael's and Davids shots are also with more contrasting lighting and mine and those others are using a little softer approach....
    Guy,

    Just a minor correction. Yes, Michael's image was shot in pretty hard light. Mine was pretty soft light.

    I was using a single Elinchrom strip-softbox to the model's left (you can see it in the catchlight) and an overhead light bank just for fill. No light on the background, no hair light, no hard reflector anywhere in sight. Simple. I wanted to test the camera, not the lighting.

    Great discussion, btw. I've been so busy today that I haven't had a chance to get online yet, so it's interesting to see how things are going.

    It's unfortunate that I am labeled with a "Leica-fan-bias" when others aren't labeled as such for other brands they may sell or promote. I don't hold back on my enthusiasm for Leica, but I do try to be as objective as possible. I think those that know me, understand that I am always honest and straighforward in my advice, recommendations, and buisness dealings. I've often talked people out of buying equipment that I didn't feel fit their needs or that I'm not crazy about.

    Anyway, back to your usually scheduled programming. I have to get some sleep.

    David
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    I read on David's blog that the S2 might have a smoother transition between in-focus and out-of-focus regions in comparison to some of the competing digital backs.

    It would be great if somebody could post some model headshots or something shot at wide open on the lens so we can see how smooth those transitions are...This may seem like a small detail...but one of my biggest pet peeves when working with digital in comparison to film has always been the transitions between IF and OOF areas of an image. Film was just much smoother....and I'm hoping that the S2 has a more film like quality to it's transition

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    I posted updated pictures on my blog.

    After checking out the files on my Eizo at work today, I can see why you guys were skeptical. My processing was really quite aweful. Silly me to trust my laptop display.... Not only were they oversharpened, but they were off-color too. Yuck!

    This go around, I used C1 which was a royal PITA without a profile. I do hope Phase comes through on that. Once I have the S2 in hand, I can make a C1 camera profile myself using my EyeOne XT and ColorChecker SG, so that might help.

    After C1, I used PS to fix the colors (only took about six different adjustment layers!) and remove blemishes.

    Can we all just pretend that the images from yesterday didn't exist? I promise to use a color and detail critical display next time.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I posted updated pictures on my blog.
    now it looks much better!

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    It's very understandable why one would want to make these comparisons right now. However, it's just too early - there is no good source of information right now on head-to-head comparisons.

    Until you have a raw file from each system (and it must be the production - ready to ship - S2) of a similar subject matter from a trusted non-leica-fan source there is just no meaning to the comparisons.

    This specific case
    - subject size is so different that trying to tell the resolved detail of something like hair between the two systems is without meaning
    - the focal length of the lens of the Phase file is not listed nor is in the metadata
    - both are processed files so different levels of sharpening, noise reduction and JPG compression are in play
    - there is no reference to what software the Phase file was processed in; C1 handles Phase files best for micro-detail and detail in the shadows
    - etc etc etc

    Trust me. I REALLY want to start making these comparisons; but until there is 1) a shipping system with final firmware and 2) a drop on the embargo of raw files - it's an exercise in futility.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Doug,

    Totally agree.

    The one thing though i enjoy actually is the amount of "noise" on the internet around the new leica's. Apparently their paradigm is direction setting. Perhaps: "l'histoire se repete"? Ithink it is, and enjoying to be part of it in realtime.

    That is why i this forum is one of my farorites, whilst having a focus on gear (IQ) the real focus is on great pictures (PQ), pro's and amateurs alike.


    Jan R.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Well so far so good, but nothing special at all. I mean Michaels image just shows in my eyes how awful lightroom is as a high end RAW processor. I find capture sharpening really bad, but perhaps it is only because I'm used to C1 and Raw developer.

    Still your updated image looks much better than before. Still there seems to be some type of noise smoothing going on. Can you tell us what settings were used with C1 ? Is is Noise reduction of or at default ? I would love to see the crop with noise red. off completely, because I find C1 does as lightroom a bad job in noise handling.

    Now if only the price would look better. I love the idea and feeling of the S2. I just can't find a space for it. would never want to give up the ultimate quality a large format camera with a MFDB gives me and owning both, is just not possible. Especially after dropping 5k on a M9 ^^

  32. #82
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I posted updated pictures on my blog.

    After checking out the files on my Eizo at work today, I can see why you guys were skeptical. My processing was really quite aweful. Silly me to trust my laptop display.... Not only were they oversharpened, but they were off-color too. Yuck!

    This go around, I used C1 which was a royal PITA without a profile. I do hope Phase comes through on that. Once I have the S2 in hand, I can make a C1 camera profile myself using my EyeOne XT and ColorChecker SG, so that might help.

    After C1, I used PS to fix the colors (only took about six different adjustment layers!) and remove blemishes.

    Can we all just pretend that the images from yesterday didn't exist? I promise to use a color and detail critical display next time.

    David
    Thanks David and as I said before this is a very tough crowd with a vast amount of knowledge in this market. Just being David the Leica dealer will always bring some skepticism because you are selling gear and have everything to gain. Users on the other hand have everything to lose and in this case a lot of money. Nothing against you as a individual or your integrity and honesty but this is just very natural from our seats. That is something you as a person just have to accept and your extra enthusiasm as well intentioned as it is just makes it a little tougher on us. That being said we all have our favorites as well but not many are so stuck on a brand to close our eyes either. If their is a better mousetrap than we will switch or buy. When making these comparisons we have to be at a neutral state when presenting it . Myself I like the Phase backs and the dealer I work with but I like Hassy also and i never stopped liking Leica regardless that I am not shooting them now. They just don't have a product for me until this S2 unit.
    As a friend you will always be looked at with some skepticism because you are a Leica dealer and in this case selling the S2 product will be your toughest sell and main reason for that is the level of experience of your buyers and there knowledge but more importantly the investment being made it will get researched, questioned and picked apart 10 times more than selling a M9. Like I said earlier on this is a tough sell on many levels like price, experience and just picky as hell users. LOL

    Anyway lets get back to the real program but as a friend and colleague I thought I would share that with you for your benefit. You just need to realize we are the bulls in the ring and running for that red flag is not automatic


    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Guy,

    Just a minor correction. Yes, Michael's image was shot in pretty hard light. Mine was pretty soft light.

    I was using a single Elinchrom strip-softbox to the model's left (you can see it in the catchlight) and an overhead light bank just for fill. No light on the background, no hair light, no hard reflector anywhere in sight. Simple. I wanted to test the camera, not the lighting.

    Great discussion, btw. I've been so busy today that I haven't had a chance to get online yet, so it's interesting to see how things are going.

    It's unfortunate that I am labeled with a "Leica-fan-bias" when others aren't labeled as such for other brands they may sell or promote. I don't hold back on my enthusiasm for Leica, but I do try to be as objective as possible. I think those that know me, understand that I am always honest and straighforward in my advice, recommendations, and buisness dealings. I've often talked people out of buying equipment that I didn't feel fit their needs or that I'm not crazy about.

    Anyway, back to your usually scheduled programming. I have to get some sleep.

    David
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #83
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I posted updated pictures on my blog.
    Much better! The skin (no the shot) still sems a bit hot on my end (of course, I don't have an Eizo ) but that's a personal preference. Color is MUCH better.

    I take it she has skin that just has a slight magenta-ness to it?

    Thanks David... these are really nnice and helpful.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    hard to know anything until the raw is seen.. how do you know what lightroom is doing if you can't see the raw? These jpgs are teasers..and the main question I have is what conditioner she is using? I could not find a split-end. Also I was hoping the lucky testers could have shot the 120mm..I will stayed tuned.

  35. #85
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Really weird thing I saved the file to my desktop and opened in CS4 and it is really RED
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  36. #86
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Hey Guy... I was seeing the same thing as well... in either firefox or safari. Haven't opened in PS yet, though.

    I still see slight red in the blog version (but WAY better than before), but the lack of other commentary makes me wonder if it's just the way I perceive color.

    (could be her actual skin color, imagine that )

    The fist example at dc.watch seems a bit more natural (though there seems to be a very slight mgenta cast on her face), but it's a tad hot on the facial skin as well... so I guess it's just too soon to tell.

    All in all though, i think the IQ appears to be stellar. Wish I had some $$$

  37. #87
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    No this is really red. Hmm just loaded back up and seemed fine in Safari . Something odd in Cs4
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #88
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Okay a screen grab . Look at this weird
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  39. #89
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... Another issue is the backup and only a S2 can back it up. The Hassy, Contax, Hy6,Phase bodies are basically cheap compared to it and as most of us know it is extremely rare the actually back goes down. Bodies yes backs not really and the S2 being integrated complicates that decision a lot. You almost have to have that warranty in sense if your a working Pro.
    As much as we may not like it, I think this is also where canikon (or better yet, Sony) comes in. Great dealer service is one thing, but having essentially nothing to shoot with in the midst of a high-dollar situation is a no-go. I'd assume anyone shooting with this stuff, at least as a high-pressure fashion/magazine shooter, have a minimal high-end 35mm kit as a worst case scenario backup.

    You're right... a thread unto itself.

  40. #90
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay a screen grab . Look at this weird
    WHOAAA.... NOT the red I've been seeing.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Hey Guy... I was seeing the same thing as well... in either firefox or safari. Haven't opened in PS yet, though.

    I still see slight red in the blog version (but WAY better than before), but the lack of other commentary makes me wonder if it's just the way I perceive color.

    (could be her actual skin color, imagine that )

    The fist example at dc.watch seems a bit more natural (though there seems to be a very slight mgenta cast on her face), but it's a tad hot on the facial skin as well... so I guess it's just too soon to tell.

    All in all though, i think the IQ appears to be stellar. Wish I had some $$$
    Shelby,

    I've corrected a lot of images in my 18 years of digital imaging and pro lab workd, and on the hardware calibrated Eizo, the image looks perfect. My settings are D6500, Gamma of 2.2, and luminance of 100cd/m2. If you are running on a Mac and have your Gamma set to 1.8 and/or your brightness too high, they will look bright as I push this to the edge on my screen (personal preferrence). But on my calibrated monitor, it is not blown out or hot. And, not red.

    On my laptop, it looks a little off, but I am not falling for that one again anytime soon.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    guys... the image simply has no color profile. assign sRGB and everything is fine.
    and for david: konvert to sRGB prior to posting on the web. non profiled images are simply a no go

  43. #93
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Hey David,

    I'm not questioning your editing capabilities at all... I just see what I see

    FWIW, I did drop your sample into LR, and found the whites of the eyes, and especially the grey backdrop to lean towards magenta... I also used the apple digital colorimeter to try to get some confirmation to make sure LR wasn't wonky.

    In the end, the file looks too magenta to me, and on my machine... this is confirmed. But, I'm being really nitpicky (as I should looking at files from a $30,000 system). The WB seems spot on, the tint is about 5 points too far to the right. Exposure... I think that, also, is a personal bias. It's not the camera, of course.

    IMVHO

    I think your shot is really nice, and speaks volumes about the new system.

    I just prefer my color (and exposure) to roll a bit differently than yours.

    ETA: I'm also working on a calibrated system @ 6500/2.2
    Last edited by Shelby Lewis; 12th September 2009 at 06:39. Reason: ETA: I'm working on the same calibration standard... 6500/2.2

  44. #94
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay a screen grab . Look at this weird
    Guy, I think you have some color calibration and/or profiling issues going on here. What hardware calibrator are you using? Eye-One? Spyder? Monaco? ColorMunki?

    I had an Eye-One Display 2 go "bad" a few months ago at work. We were using it as a quick and easy calibrator for Eizo Color Navigator and found "weird" stuff like you're seeing (on multiple monitors and different computers). After ditching the Display 2 and switching to my Eye-One Pro all was better. I'd suggest you try to switch to a different calibration device.

    Because the Eizos are hardware calibrated, the entire OS provides accurate color irrespective of application, although profile aware apps wll render subtleties and out-of-gamut colors better. In a software calibrated system, things look different in profile aware applications. So, your web browser might only be off slightly, but CS4 will be totally whacked out, as the profile is probably screwed up.

    You may even be better ditching your profile in the meantime and switching to sRGB Monitor Profile in the Displays control panel.

    Good luck (nothing like a fun Saturday project),

    David
    David Farkas
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  45. #95
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    No everything is checked out and running fine just actually updated to SL and calibrated with Eye One. It must not have a profile or something. Just very weird. But not concerned either all my stuff looks fine
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Because the Eizos are hardware calibrated, the entire OS provides accurate color irrespective of application, although profile aware apps wll render subtleties and out-of-gamut colors better. In a software calibrated system, things look different in profile aware applications.
    this is not right. When you open images without color profile applications like Safari simply assign the monitor color space. What they should do is to convert (relative colormetric) the file profile to the monitor profile. But if the file has no profile it's all off.
    Firefox can be set to assign sRGB to all image files without color profile (that's a very good thing). Safari is not capable to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    So, your web browser might only be off slightly, but CS4 will be totally whacked out, as the profile is probably screwed up.
    No. Guy's color settings are set to ignore missing profiles (that's not so good) So your image is tagged with Guys working space (the ammount of oversaturation indicates that Guy is using ProPhotoRGB).

  47. #97
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    I am using ProphtotoRGB as my color space and I process all my raws to that color space
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I am using ProphtotoRGB as my color space and I process all my raws to that color space
    that's okay. But you should modify your color prefs:
    - Profile mismatch: preserve embeded profiles
    - missing profiles: select when opening (you would have been promted to assign a profile when opening Davids image...)

    And in the viewer you shouldn't display the document size (who cares) but the color space
    Last edited by thomas; 15th January 2011 at 08:40.

  49. #99
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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Thanks Thomas I made that change. Usually never a issue since am working with mine but never hurts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anybody seeing S2 image files yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Thomas I made that change. Usually never a issue since am working with mine but never hurts
    you're welcome.
    You will not notice that change in your regular workflow as your captures are coming out of C1 with a profile (ProPhoto). But if - for whatever reason - you open an image without profile (unfortunately there are a lot around) you will be promted.
    Just assign sRGB to David's image and it will look fine (maybe it looks not "right"; it depends on the color space David used prior to saving the file without profile. But this is definitely not your fault).

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