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Contax 645Hi,

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The Mamyia's maybe not be the best glass around but I have to say in the MF and the ZD i am getting some really great images from it and I am a lens junky . So i find them really doing a great job in the final image. Some things that are very apparent with Mamiya is there still in business for one and they are partners with Phase. The Mamiya 28mm is to die for . They are coming out with special designed digital lenses 80mm 2.8, a new 150 mm and also a new 45-90 lens. Frankly i think i made a good choice with going Mamiya . Also there are only 3 or 4 making gear at present . Hassy, Sinar and Mamiya. leaf is partners I belive with Sinar on the camera's. So there is not a lot of choice and as nice as the Contax system is it is also very dead with nothing new coming and that makes that a nervous purchase in my mind. Let's not forget a new and improved base camera for it the AFD-III coming next month.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I like the Contax system and they have some nice lenses but to go buy it now and a back for it , i just think it is a risk and many are selling off because if they change there backs than do you want to invest 30k like this. Not that there is anything wrong here but certainly makes you think twice.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
The mamiya has many bodies, wonder how long they will be around?

the H1 and H2 were made virtually "DEAD" by HB when they brought out the H3D

Let's stop talking about the Contax as 'dead' in a way that suggests this is a reasonable criterion. The Contax system likely has MORE availability than many HB configurations that were obsoleted.

I am in the midst of looking at an alternative to my Contax 645 /P45+/C-HBV-Leicavisoglass (yes it works on C645) system

and you know what?

based on IQ, ease of handling and overall flexibility (NOT focusing on any one item, like flash synch or AF speed) I have yet to find ANY system that has better IQ and ease of use.

yes the 75LV may have better iso-so I can get a C645 mount and buy the 75LV!
Yes the HB H3D has ALMOST the IQ, but with tonnes of special processing,
The Hy6 has Rollei glass- about, maybe as good as the Contax and HB V glass I use on the combo I have.

The latter two suffer from being MONSTERS compared to the C645 with either prism or WLF. OH, and I have a sealth camera called the ALPA TC! with 35mm Schneider with Contax mount.

SOme really top people use the C645 with their glass and back of choice. It has the MOST glass, even compared to HB since it has a short registry distance.

When the arguments come down to

"really dramatically better resolution of glass that doesnt fit the C645,"
or
"form and fit that make it MUch easier to handle"
or
Dramatically better AF"
or
" significantly improved flash handing in ALL situation.

then I will switch

In the meantime I am planing to buy a second system. I am already resigned to the fact that i will likely buy a system for ONE feature (say faster AF, or higher synch) and will like sacrifice IQ and handling

we will see.

In the meantime, I welcome striaght one on one IQ against the C645 system with glass OTHER than C645 possible
All else is trade off.

Sorry. Some here are going to drop a lot of money on MF and seem into the Mamiya as it may be the first to be affordable. Don't let a "dead" label scare one from the better (By MANY people's judgments, not just mine. Read here, listen to DPI friends like CJ and MK, and see LL threads on the Contax and you may change your mind about how 'dead' the Contax 645 system is.

best regards
Victor

PS: As many here suspect, and it certainly doesn't make me popular, I COULD buy any system out there!
 

evgeny

Member
Solutions
1. Sell camera with MFDB to switch to another system.
2. Buy MFDB with an adapter (Ixpress, Sinar, etc).

I bought Contax because
1. Special look of images shot with Zeiss optics. Thank to Irakly..
2. Contax is similar to my Nikon.
 

David Klepacki

New member
... Also there are only 3 or 4 making gear at present . Hassy, Sinar and Mamiya. leaf is partners I belive with Sinar on the camera's. So there is not a lot of choice and as nice as the Contax system is it is also very dead with nothing new coming and that makes that a nervous purchase in my mind...
Guy, the Contax brand is dead as far as a company is concerned, but the Contax 645 system is still one of the best and most versatile systems today in many aspects. The whole system is very well built and will last for many years. It has been manufactured in large quantity from 1999 through 2005. Zeiss Japan will continue to support the optics for many years, and there are plenty of parts and people who can service this system worldwide. Yes, the AF may not be as fast, and there will not be any leaf shutter lenses or 28mm for it, but many people like the Zeiss glass and the overall capabilities of this system are still unmatched in many areas.

For example, the auto-bellows with rise/fall/tilt/shift geared movements of the Contax 645 make it an ideal setup for product and macro work, something which Mamiya still does not provide in their 645 systems. Also, the Contax provides full support for a waist level viewfinder including an integrated flash bracket. And then there are things like a vertical grip for portrait shooters, and a built in TTL flash meter.

Many photographers continue to use the Contax 645 system with great success in their business, and are quite profitable with it. While the camera body can no longer be updated, the digital backs for it can. You can choose pretty much any back for it, from the inexpensive Kodak 16MP back to the latest 33MP and 39MP backs from Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, and PhaseOne.

So, don't get me wrong here. The Mamiya is a great system. I respect your choice in the Mamiya system, and I do not consider it inferior to any other choice of system. However, the Contax is not a lesser alternative.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I owned two Contax 645 systems and now own the Mamiya AFDII. I can assure you that the Mamiya is the better body in every functional respect; faster AF, better AE, brighter viewfinder. As far as build quality, the Mamiya only looks like something plastic fantastic -- in reality it is a very solid camera. I suspect if we performed a drop test with the Mamiya, Contax, H3 and Rollei, the Mamiya would be the most likely to survive, primarily because of its lighter net weight.

As for the glass, the Mamiya glass is excellent but certainly has a different look than Zeiss -- I find many of the Mamiya primes have a smoother Leica look as opposed to the more contrasty Zeiss look. FWIW, I find the Fujiblad glass somewhere between.

Cheers,
 

gogopix

Subscriber
In many respects I suppose C vs M would be a wash. (I do dispute the AE better, and the AF though a bit slow when it works is spot on, and is easily overridden in Contax. Same with AE.
It is a tough tank, and would ask Jack, that you first drop your Mamiya from say waist height on to a sidewalk. Let me know what happens. If it doesnt break, well, I will give you THAT one :ROTFL:
What is different is the glass. The votes have been taleyed on C vs M glass for years. The much vaunted 28mm was quitre poo-pooed on LL. (was possibly a sample variance issue, as explained, but isnt that a message in itself?)
other glass of C is compared, as with 120mm vs HB with the CZ the favoured.

I have now ALL the Contax glass, AND the rare bellows and just about every accessory. In fact the contax flash I even use on my Leica's in A mode and with bounce and secondary flash they are superd, and easier to use than the Metz (though the guide number is in fact less I believe on the C)

we can debate all day. In the end, we will make our trades offs. I don't need to compromise since some of the areas where other systems are better I just make part of my sceme (Alpa, HB V lenses) or dont care (AF is not a big deal, and for street shooting, NO AF is smart enought to find a bird in a tree, buried in brancehes . I just have and use the Contax!:toocool:

Regards
Victor
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Victor, I don't disagree at all! The Contax is/was an excellent camera. I seriously wish it was still in production -- if it were, I would probably still be using one myself. But it isn't and that is a problem for me since I require more "future-proof" support. At any rate, I am holding off any other system jump until I see what the new Mamiya AFDIII AND leaf shutter lenses bring. If the LS lenses are any good, then I am set. If not, then I will probably add a Hassy H system to the mix. The issue here is I need/want both focal plane shutter speeds for outdoors and leaf shutter flash synch speeds for studio. And FWIW, while I love the look and feel of the Hy6, I cannot get my arms around the cost of entry, especially the glass.

BTW, I have two different bellows for my Mamiya, one fully electronic coupled and another with full front standard movements (tilt, swing, shift and rise/fall). I can mount some older LF glass on that one for really interesting looks. With all the other glass that can be adapted, the Mamiya is a VERY flexible system.

Cheers,
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Guy, the Contax brand is dead as far as a company is concerned, but the Contax 645 system is still one of the best and most versatile systems today in many aspects. The whole system is very well built and will last for many years. It has been manufactured in large quantity from 1999 through 2005. Zeiss Japan will continue to support the optics for many years, and there are plenty of parts and people who can service this system worldwide. Yes, the AF may not be as fast, and there will not be any leaf shutter lenses or 28mm for it, but many people like the Zeiss glass and the overall capabilities of this system are still unmatched in many areas.

For example, the auto-bellows with rise/fall/tilt/shift geared movements of the Contax 645 make it an ideal setup for product and macro work, something which Mamiya still does not provide in their 645 systems. Also, the Contax provides full support for a waist level viewfinder including an integrated flash bracket. And then there are things like a vertical grip for portrait shooters, and a built in TTL flash meter.

Many photographers continue to use the Contax 645 system with great success in their business, and are quite profitable with it. While the camera body can no longer be updated, the digital backs for it can. You can choose pretty much any back for it, from the inexpensive Kodak 16MP back to the latest 33MP and 39MP backs from Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, and PhaseOne.

So, don't get me wrong here. The Mamiya is a great system. I respect your choice in the Mamiya system, and I do not consider it inferior to any other choice of system. However, the Contax is not a lesser alternative.
NO ONE is saying the Contax 645 is an inferior system ... it's the constant berating of other people's choices in comparison that's the issue. After all, doesn't the need/application determine what is best for any given photographer?

For example, IF a I want fast MF AF, then the C645 is the LAST MF AF camera I would select. In my case, that was exactly my need, so bye-bye C645 as soon as I lifted a H2 to my eye ... which has continued to evolve to be even faster and more accurate ... because they are still in business and improving their product. Same for Mamiya with their innovative multi-point AF and new, faster AF performance.

I personally have a far greater need for a higher fill-flash sync speed outdoors than I do being limited to 1/125th. Others may not.

IF i want FULL T/S ability, I'll use my Rollei Xact with a wide ranging system of Rodenstock and Schneider Digital APO lenses that no MF system lenses can match ... including the C645. Others may have different needs/applications, and for them a different solution may well be better.

While I can secure a waist/lever finder for the H3D, and had one for my C645, I never use one with a 645, so I could care less if a 645 camera offers one ... since it's useless for a quick change to a portrait orientation.

IMO, adding the vertical grip to the Contax was a Frankenstein solution that affected the handling and balance of a well balanced camera to much ... but was selected as often as not because of the horrible power efficiency of that camera.

IF Contax had stayed in production, and IF they had continued to evolve to provide better AF, and IF they had produced some leaf shutter optics, If they had solved the power issue, I probably never would have left the fold. But they didn't, so I moved on. It has nothing to do with what the best "universal" system may be ... it's personal need/application that drives choice.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
:shocked: So, if I have this right, we eliminate AF, power issues, sync speed, and most of the other stuff that makes a 645 a reasonable application choice ... and we're left with a ... drum roll ... Hasselbald 203FE ... which has lens IQ that equals, and in many cases, kills the Contax 645 lenses. Ironically, also a dead system, but the company that made it is still directly handling repairs, and I can get parts overnight. Slap a Sinar 33 meg back on it and you're off to the races ... as long as you don't need AF ... which I guess we don't. :LOL:
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Marc,
You have it right; in fact, the potential for faster AF is the ONE feature (synch speed has NOT been a problem, but I would NOT throw 1/800s away:D

Most situation i DO NOT need those items that make another system better than Contax. It is not to berate other systems, it is just in many respects they are not better!

anyway, the Contax amongst the MF platforms is the most comfortable and smallest (though a bit heavier) I actally get MORE stares that I have a camera from the R9DMR look and can slip in with the Contax/80mm2.0 without an isue esp with WLF.

WHEN the HB series gets on a diet I will likely write the check. The glass looks great and the system has legs for the furure.

In the meantime I get to use all the CF, CFE, CFI (even "C") lenses aswell as the "F" and "FE"

however, unlike your 203, I also get to use the Contax glass, and, except for 120makro, in AF!

regards
Victor

PS: the contax with P45+? the P45+ battery I change more than the contax. I got over 2500 shots in europe from three body batteries.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Solutions
1. Sell camera with MFDB to switch to another system.
2. Buy MFDB with an adapter (Ixpress, Sinar, etc).

I bought Contax because
1. Special look of images shot with Zeiss optics. Thank to Irakly..
2. Contax is similar to my Nikon.
Buying "Zeiss Optics" will not make your images look like Irakly's. It's the use of light.

Buy a Lumoflex and spend your money on one of his "creative" seminars ... you'll be the better for it ;)
 

David K

Workshop Member
FWIW, my Sinar rep tells me not to buy the Hassy adapter for my Hy6 kit so I can use my 200 series camera... says they are not compatible. I'm told by others he's wrong. Marc, have you looked into this. I really want to shoot some of my Hasselblad glass on the 200 series camera and get away from shooting it on the Contax via adapter (even though it works just fine).
 

gogopix

Subscriber
I just wanted to follow up on marc's comment about "its wahat works for your work" that counts.

Here is a shot, AF, in terrible light. I was only a few feet away and the parties actually never reacted to the shot- an important aspect. Reasonable lens, no flash, quick focus (ok, not the greatest AE! and noise, but these do not have any NR, only exposure correction.

This is what you need in travl shots, at least for me. That is something a little les conspicuous than a Grey BLK Hy6 nwith 75Lv grey blue or a mustard and silver Moore type sculpted body (H3D)

Sexy in the street is not good! :D

Anyway, AF was fast enough and the only issue (besides, ok not the best composition; the store was 5x5!

was the better ISO I needed for the poorer DOF and shutter speed (though having the customer a little OOF I liked!

Victor
 
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David Klepacki

New member
I agree that everyone has their own needs, so we should not try to justify why one system is any better than another. I also use multiple systems for exactly this reason.

Here is one reason why I still like my Contax 645. It allows me to use a compact, portable (and inexpensive) TTL ring flash. With the built-in flash meter of the Contax 645, the image is pretty much nailed with the first shot. In many situations, I just don't have the time, space nor luxury of setting up any diffusers and panels, and in many cases this little ring flash saves the day.

I don't know of any other autofocus medium format system, whether 645 or 66, that can do this. The TTL ring flash is even more useful in macro situations, to provide even illumination and avoid harsh shadows at such close range.

Here is an example of my setup (sorry for the poor quality as I just snapped it with a cheap digicam). Of course, it is easily hand holdable with just the flash bracket.
 
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David Klepacki

New member
Here is an example of how easy it is to remove annoying shadows, by using a TTL ring flash on the Contax. The first image was taken with the TTL ring flash system as I show above. The second image shows the use of a "normal" shoe mount flash. With just one shoe mount flash, it is impossible to eliminate the shadows. You would need at least two such flashes (and perhaps some diffusers) to do the same job as this one ring flash.

Of course, you could use this flash system with other cameras, including the Mamiya, but you would not get the same advantages of TTL flash metering like with the Contax.

Again, the Contax is not the best camera for every situation, but it does have its advantages, and is just another tool when needed.

By the way, this was only an example to illustrate a point. This was taken near some windows, which are the cause of the other reflections that you see in the vase.
 
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David Klepacki

New member
Of course, the TTL ring flash does a decent job in backlit portrait situations, and without causing any shadows under the eyes.
 
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EH21

Member
When you say TTL ring flash are you talking about the now discontinued Sunpak DX-12? I've been looking for one of those for my Rollei 6008. Are there any other choices?
Thanks,
Eric
 

gogopix

Subscriber
David
Nice example.
Now, if we could just get Sinar to paint their back black....

but seriously, With the sinar on the contax it is defineitely studiosville. not a street camera.
yet with any Phase (and I DO like the high ISO performance of the emotions backs, and the files are quite good) it is just such an amateurish looking design.

Sorry Theirry, it is. Compared to any other back, for all its performance it looks like it was designed by...

oh never mind, just let them know that as some point out here; if you are a fish, different tools for different pools!

you can't take an emotion swimming in a Provencal market. Like a fish out of water

(Talk about multiple mixed metaphors. :ROTFL:

By the same token, maybe they need more room, spend more on board design.. certainly shown in lower noise, but would this prevent me from buying for street and travel?, this color and design?
YOU BET!


for fashion, studio, landscape, wildlife would I buy it?

YOU BET!

Victor

PS: In describing the first Linn Sondeck, one of the cheapest and best and most touted of record turntables, it was described as 'having been designed in a Bronx garage."
Linn is now one of the top high audio companies. Sinar is doing is right; get the fundamentals ahead of the competition, then fix the secondary characteristics. However, fixed, for some applications, they must be.
 

evgeny

Member
Buying "Zeiss Optics" will not make your images look like Irakly's. It's the use of light.

Buy a Lumoflex and spend your money on one of his "creative" seminars ... you'll be the better for it ;)
I use Hensel Integra Pro Plus in my studio. Of course, I will be glad to attend, but I'm not in the USA.
 
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