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More MF Questions (resolution)

routlaw

Member
Shelby

Allow me to throw my two cents worth in, not as an MFDB owner (though I have had a somewhat morbid fascination with them albeit a financially unjustifiable one for a long period of time) but rather as a user of virtually all of the Nikon pro DSLR's since the classic D1 and the Betterlight scan back. Having photographed a plethora of product catalogs dealing with all sorts of fabrics from cordura, pack cloth and various clothing garments over the years, often acts of technical desperation needed to be implemented.

Putting camera gear of all sorts aside for a brief moment, please understand eliminating moire at the camera level is only part of the battle. Moire can also occur during pre press depending on a number of factors such as angle of screen, stochastic screening vs line screen, the "pattern frequency" of the cloth being screened, and the size of reproduction for garment or product will all come into play. Years ago we shot a well known backpacking companies product catalogs on 4x5 and MF film but the drum scans/screening wreaked moire havoc with the packcloth. The offset printing industry at the time apparently had not quite dialed in the stochastic screening method. Even downsizing for web usage can create moire patterns where it did not even exist before. I have had this happen on numerous occasions with canvas paintings photographed with the Betterlight, go figure.

Back at the camera level one method I have learned to virtually eliminate all moire when it crops up with my Nikon cameras including the D3 (9 micron pixels) is to stop way down with an aperture in the neighborhood of F22. It never ceases to amaze me what cloths will or will not moire for a given sensor and sure enough this week while photographing some cloth products we immediately had a colorful zebra pattern to deal with. Curiously it came from a very unsuspecting cloth. Using the D3 with an 85 macro T/S lens I moved in closer cutting the shooting distance in half, stitched two frames together (via PS merge) and stopped down to approximately F22, and virtually if not completely eliminated all moire.

To my surprise the loss in resolution or detail due too diffraction loss with such a small aperture was not to noticeable in this case. I see no reason why the same would not hold true with an MFDB system either.

Sorry for the long winded post but hope this helps.

Rob

...I'm almost onboard as a general creative director for a small clothing company I've shot for (meaning I'll be shooting, laying out the catalogs, designing the website, running the blog, getting everyone coffee :D)... and we're looking to improve the equipment we're shooting with.

I'm presently on track towards a p30/-30+... but have recently seen that original p45 backs go well below $9K and p25 backs at around $5-6K.

So, speaking in terms of resolution, how do the 22mp backs fair against the canons/nikons/sony ... and is there a huge difference between the 22 and 31 mp backs?...

:D
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Yeah... but if I understand correctly (probably not, lol), the ProII takes a v-mount phase back whereas the ProIID works with an afd-mount phase back. Can the ProII actually use the mamy plate + a cable?
I *think* you can use a generic adapter plate like the one from LEAF and it will work, but best to check with Doug at CI first though -- he knows this compatibility stuff inside and out.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
PS: The stopping way down is a great tip and one I'd forgotten -- the diffraction at small apertures does act like an AA filter of sorts.
 
D

ddk

Guest
Hi Shelby,

Coming from a different place that others, let me add my 2¢ to the mix, it might be helpful.

So, speaking in terms of resolution, how do the 22mp backs fair against the canons/nikons/sony ... and is there a huge difference between the 22 and 31 mp backs? I
Depends on what you mean by resolution, if its a matter of sharpness and detail, then I'd have to say no, they're similar. The difference for me is in the nuances; DR, tonal range/depth and general rendition, things that depending on the type of work aren't always apparent nor always important.

This is only going to be for the clothing and for my personal art projects. I'm basically shutting my own studio down and am only going to shoot "serious" art portraiture

I shot the p40+ a few weeks ago on a phase body.
You should be aware that P40+ has a Dalsa chip which has very different color and tonal character to P30+'s Kodak. Its actually closer to Leaf dbs which I ended up buying last year after lengthy comparisons with Phase. I found the skin tones more to my taste and the tonal depth/range superior. I'm bringing this up since you mentioned fine are projects and high end portraiture. I can't comment on the moire problems with the 54S or 75S, most of my subject don't wear clothes and personally I haven't seen any issues with lace and underwear. Leaf's P30+ equivalent is the P65S. I think that you can get even better deals on the Leaf backs these days.

Another little tidbit, I find that ACR does a great job with Leaf files, so your LR situation isn't necessarily bad.

As far as mounts, I'm really looking at the mamiya system. A week or so ago, I met with some of the CI guys and tested a phamiya body and an h1 and really liked how the phase body felt in the hand compared to the hassy. I have smallish hands and the sharper contouring of the hassy was really uncomfortable.
I realize your rz67 issue but for pure feel you ought to try the Contax 645, although out of production, mint examples are still easily found; and if you liked your Sony/Zeiss glass, you're going to love the Contax lenses!

If you're ever in NYC, I can lend you my gear and set you up with lighting and location.
 

Digitalcameraman

Active member
Jack:

The Phase One Mamiya RZ adapter only works with V mount camera backs with RZ, RZ II cameras body.

The new Phase One/Mamiya AFD interface is designed to work only with AFD mount camera backs with RZII D camera body.

Best option if you already have a Phase One or Leaf AFD mount camera back is to get a Mamiya RZ II D camera body and use your RZ lenses. This allows you to use on RZ IID and P1/Mamiya AFD bodies too.



Chris Snipes
Phase One Reseller Florida
Phase One Test Studio Florida
www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]







I *think* you can use a generic adapter plate like the one from LEAF and it will work, but best to check with Doug at CI first though -- he knows this compatibility stuff inside and out.
 

Digitalcameraman

Active member
Sorry one other detail. The Leaf interface plate does not work with the P1 backs very well. The Leaf camera back does not need a wake up call. The Phase One backs (Kodak chips) all need a wake up call and the interface plate from P1 provides this wake up call. I had several people buy the Leaf version but lost interest when they released it did not work correctly from the release button. If you shoot people, no way to work. Technically you could get a P1 or KG one shot cable to do the wake up and then release but not very fun at all. There also needs to be a small amount of machine work to get P series backs to mount properly on Leaf adapters I have seen on RZ.


Chris Snipes
Phase One Reseller Florida
Phase One Test Studio Florida
www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]


I *think* you can use a generic adapter plate like the one from LEAF and it will work, but best to check with Doug at CI first though -- he knows this compatibility stuff inside and out.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Sorry one other detail. The Leaf interface plate does not work with the P1 backs very well. The Leaf camera back does not need a wake up call. The Phase One backs (Kodak chips) all need a wake up call and the interface plate from P1 provides this wake up call. I had several people buy the Leaf version but lost interest when they released it did not work correctly from the release button. If you shoot people, no way to work. Technically you could get a P1 or KG one shot cable to do the wake up and then release but not very fun at all. There also needs to be a small amount of machine work to get P series backs to mount properly on Leaf adapters I have seen on RZ.


Chris Snipes
Phase One Reseller Florida
Phase One Test Studio Florida
www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]
Hmmmm.... It was over a year ago and I am getting older so may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure I put my P45+ on my buddy's Mamiya RZ Pro 1 with a generic, "no pins" mamiya 645 adapter plate and connected the lens PC to my back's port with the Kapture Group wake-up cable, set latency to long and IIRC, it worked fine...
 

Digitalcameraman

Active member
I said it would work technically but not very elegant for a high end digital camera back solution. I wasworking just today with that same setup P45+ V on P1 Mamiya RZ adapter RZII Pro.

You may have Jack but I think anyone that would have to use a release trigger like that to shoot people is going to miss shots and get misfires. It is very easy to get misfires when waking up this kodak CCD with this cable.
This is very accepted when using technical cameras and wide angle devices that use copal shutters. But I confirmed with P1 DK back then that the P1 adapter plate facilitates waking up the camera with an electronic signal as opposed to an manual release that uses a micro switch.

When I had a customer buy one 4 years ago, he had to machine an area to get this P25 to mount and when he discovered that he needed to use a wake up cable release, this put the speed at which one can focus and shoot at a crawl. It was a deal breaker. He purchased that plate from Calumet as a Leaf part. ECCO from I think Singapore also makes an adapter for the H1 back as well. That back must be machines and same thing, no one designed it for the P1 backs which need that wake up call.

if you look at the front of the Mamiya adapter you will see as mall box that houses this wake up switch. Generic plates like the ones above were made to use Dasal CCD based camera backs that do not need this wake up call. Nor does the new P40+ or P65+ backs because they do not need a wake up call.



Chris Snipes
Image Production, Inc
Phase One Reseller Florida
[email protected]









Hmmmm.... It was over a year ago and I am getting older so may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure I put my P45+ on my buddy's Mamiya RZ Pro 1 with a generic, "no pins" mamiya 645 adapter plate and connected the lens PC to my back's port with the Kapture Group wake-up cable, set latency to long and IIRC, it worked fine...
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
cool.... great info everyone.

David... can you (or anyone else) talk some more about contax 645? I'll be honest here, I've always favored either contax or (get this) rollei as the systems that turn me on the most... as cameras, especially Rollei. The drawing style of the schneider/zeiss lenses has always fascinated me, as has those funky 6008 bodies. I'm not as familiar with the contax line... If I were to head that way, I'd be looking at the 80/2, the 140/2.8 (120 macro later), and the 210/4 to start. That's a much larger investment than similar lenses in the mamiya line. I just don't have a contax system nearby to try out. Maybe the guys at CI might have one.

I'm not worried about the system being "dead". I don't see it as that way (and that argument is for another thread)... but I'd be interested in being directed towards examples of how the contax glass performs. I LOVED the zeiss rendering on the a900... the 135/1.8 was fantastic.
 
D

ddk

Guest
I don't know what information you're looking for, but I promise, if you ever fondle one you're going to have a very hard time putting it down.

As a system, ideally you'd want to get the grip, but not a must. As far as lenses go, they're light and beautifully made. I recommend a different 3 lens setup than the one you mentioned. In your shoes I'd go for the 55mm, 120mm macro and the 210mm.

A lot of rental houses used to carry the Contax, I think that both Adorama and Sammy's still have them and they'll ship across the country.

As far as purchasing goes, they come up regularly on ebay. Let me know if you have any specific questions regarding the system.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The Contax is a great system, solid build, nice lenses and good ergo's --- I owned three of them back in their heyday.. But it is now a dead system -- not in itself horrible, but noteworthy as you should calculate in a back-up body and favored lenses. My final nits -- the AF is SLOW relative to the newer Mamiya or Hassy AF bodies, the lens line-up is a little thin relative to Mamiya or Hassy.
 

carstenw

Active member
... thin, perhaps compared to the whole Mamiya lineup, but the lenses in the Contax lineup are pretty solid, and I don't feel that there are any holes. There are also a few real pearls of lenses, like the 35/3.5 and the 120/4 Macro, both of which are among the very best in MF, even today.

I also find the classic Hasselblad, Rollei and Contax systems the nicest, and ended up with a Contax on this basis. I don't think I would buy into the Rollei system if I were living in North America, though. Too expensive and rare. However, I am not a pro, and do this only for enjoyment. I don't need to buy backup stuff in advance, just in case something dies, irreparably. There are people who repair Contax cameras, and I think Zeiss still takes care of the lenses, but it is not as easy to get done as with Mamiya. I cannot imagine that someone would buy the Contax and regret their decision *system-wise*, but Jack of course has a good point: the system is no longer current, and repairs would be more time-consuming.
 
T

tetsrfun

Guest
David... can you (or anyone else) talk some more about contax 645?
*******
If you are considering dead or dying systems....There are always Hasselblad "V" variants...The introduction of the CFV39 digital back for $13,995 (new) has injected new life in the V system.

Steve
 
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