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Thread: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

  1. #51
    Member Arjuna's Avatar
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    One question regarding looking for the benefits of the leaf shutter: I presume that the FP shutter still has to fire, so the question would be when? In a Hasselblad V, I believe that the blind shutter at the back opens when you pre-release the mirror, and closes when you release the shutter button, but it is relatively light weight, and would not, I think, have the kick of the Mamiya/Phase's shutter. In other words, putting a leaf shutter lens on a FP shutter camera doesn't turn it into a leaf shutter camera like a V, so the advantage of the leaf shutter lens would be much more for flash sync than for vibration reduction?

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Actually, you'll find the V has a FP type shutter that works as a darkslide when you are cocked and viewing through the VF. Upon firing, the mirror goes up and the lens shutter closes, then the dark slide opens and THEN the leaf shutter fires. All to be repeated after the next shutter cock, which closes the FP darkslide before opening the LS on the lens. Similar on the Mamiya RB/RZ.

    In some current LS/SLR systems, the re-cock is automatic -- and that's about the only practical difference to the above. However, I think the H3D body was maybe the first LS/SLR to do away with the darkslide since it is NOT needed for digital sensors -- and suspect that might be the case with this new FD body too. IOW the new Mamiya body may not be film-back compatible either, or it may have a special film mode that keeps the film protected, not sure which...
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  3. #53
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    The other part about flash duration speed is separate. That should not matter so much, except for flash units that have a very narrow power spike (short duration for freezing action), which would then need to be timed more closely with the shutter duration.
    I was just thinking it would be fun to see this on an oscilloscope... then realized that the electronics used for TTL flash control presumably are able to measure these short durations already.

    How cool would it be for a future camera to have a "setup mode" that would capture the entire exposure duration, including flash pulse, and display it as a graph on the back LCD? Then you'd use the controller keys to fine-tune the sync timing (which already is electronically controlled) to position the flash pulse in the best position for your particular setup, giving you the highest possible flash efficiency with your specific power packs, radio slaves, etc.

    Sound crazy? Hey, until this week nobody realized an accelerometer would be a good thing to integrate into an AF system, so who knows what might be tomorrow's great idea...?

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Jack: I know about the V's darkslide shutter, I used to have one. I believe that tashley (Tim?) has commented upon the kick of the Mamiya/Phase shutter in the past, and the V's darkslide shutter is pretty gentle. He was doing tests with MUP/mirror pre-release, and on the V the darkslide shutter opens when you pre-release the mirror. Hence the question about the timing of the FP shutter on the Phase when using a leaf shutter lens. If the first curtain of the shutter fires when you press the shutter release, just before the leaf shutter fires, but NOT when the mirror is released, then you would still have FP shutter vibration, even when using a leaf shutter lens. If it fires when you put the mirror up, and you then wait for the mirror-up/shutter vibrations to die down, then you have a scenario very much like a leaf shutter camera.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Victor, I have one here. It is AF, SK, and AFAIK PDG!
    Dear Tim

    Sounds like a winner!!! Would love to see some images, and also your reaction to how the AF works.
    "dead" systems don't last forever (to REALLY stretch a metaphor
    and committed to Phase (P65+) and considering a second back, I could easily go for one of CI/Phase deals for a PM body SK glass and second back (Dave, what was the cost to swap mounts? was it free the first year?

    Anyway, the main thing for me has always been the glass, but with 66 YO eyes, I do welcome AF, and at times the Contax is frustratingly perverse in what it focuses on.

    so, I say "good on them"; Phase may have a really strong future with this

    best regards
    Victor

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Victor if you have the Value added warranty the mount swap is free. Normally I think the charge outside the warranty is 3k but the CI guys can tell you for sure and they can also tell you what warranty you have.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    More wish book porn just to light Guy's fire!!
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Most of it sounds great. I already see it coming that i will have to re create a few panoramics which had huge light fall off after a big shift.

    However I would like to know TWO main things. Once will Live Preview work on Windows ? (As said before not everyone wants to work with slow mac based computers)
    Yes, it will work with Windows and it works very well.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by selsoe View Post
    Yes, it will work with Windows and it works very well.


    If true, best news of the year for me

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Turner View Post
    More wish book porn just to light Guy's fire!!
    Thanks Jeff just what I need more incentive. LOL

    BTW did anyone notice these look fairly small. I know hard to tell but they really don't look any bigger than a normal 80 in size. Tim can you elaborate on the size of the 80mm and it's filter size.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Guy,

    Actually from the image, I'm guessing that the 110mm is much smaller than my Hassie-Zeiss 110mm lens. That would be the lens I'll buy first.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Regarding the LS/FP shutter firing order, I suspect that the FP shutter would remain open depending on the activation time of the sensor. If it acts like a darkslide, the sensor remains juiced up at all times, otherwise the sensor sits in a standby mode, the FP remains open, and the leaf shutter acts like a leaf shutter. The behavior may be back dependent (considering that they now support various Phase and Leaf backs).
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    This is really great news, especially as there is now SK glass coming directly in front of the Phase camera/back.

    I assume (hope) that there are more SK lenses to follow!?

    Anybody any information about this?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Regarding the LS/FP shutter firing order, I suspect that the FP shutter would remain open depending on the activation time of the sensor. If it acts like a darkslide, the sensor remains juiced up at all times, otherwise the sensor sits in a standby mode, the FP remains open, and the leaf shutter acts like a leaf shutter. The behavior may be back dependent (considering that they now support various Phase and Leaf backs).
    See my 'tease' thread for more on this....

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW did anyone notice these look fairly small. I know hard to tell but they really don't look any bigger than a normal 80 in size. Tim can you elaborate on the size of the 80mm and it's filter size.
    It is bigger than the FP version though not by much. About the same size as the old 35mm. The filter is 72mm


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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Yaya/Tim:

    Just curious: Does it take the film back or is the new body digital only?
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Yaya/Tim:

    Just curious: Does it take the film back or is the new body digital only?
    Jack -

    My understanding is that it's digital only, as was the Mamiya 645DF prototype shown at PIE earlier this year.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    Jack -

    My understanding is that it's digital only, as was the Mamiya 645DF prototype shown at PIE earlier this year.
    Thanks Oren,

    That's what I thought too and just wanted to confirm it.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    It is bigger than the FP version though not by much. About the same size as the old 35mm. The filter is 72mm

    Thanks is the grip any different
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks is the grip any different
    I'm curious too----if the RRS or Kirk L bracket from the Phase 645AF/Mamiya AFD III will fit the new Phase 645DF, or is there a minor body change that would require an all new L bracket??

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Thinking the same exact thing, scary.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Is there a WLF for this camera, or is it fixed up top?

  23. #73
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Fixed.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Any more detailed info on the 1/1600th sync?

    Is the speed accomplished purely in the leaf shutter or using timing on the CCD (like the Nikon D70 did?)

    Any limitations on aperture used?

    Just curious. It's a big number and would be quite an accomplishment if the final specs (and results) match up to the marketing verbiage in the press release.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thinking the same exact thing, scary.
    Yeah, I think Jack gets more worried whenever me or Don "think the same" as him....




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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    How is the compatibility with older lenses?

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I'm curious too----if the RRS or Kirk L bracket from the Phase 645AF/Mamiya AFD III will fit the new Phase 645DF, or is there a minor body change that would require an all new L bracket??
    I suspect that a new L-bracket is in order as this body is capable of mounting a vertical grip. Something has to have changed.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    I would expect some legacy backs from Leaf and Phase would only go to 1/800 but more like the P40 and P65 would do the 1/6000 . I would assume maybe some of the newer Leaf backs would as well.

    There are legacy products here that maybe not designed to handle that speed.

    I don't think there is any issue though with any older legacy glass. Dave mentioned earlier Hassy V with adapters, old mamiya and the new series D lenses. Plus the new leaf lenses. That is a lot of glass options out there.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I suspect that a new L-bracket is in order as this body is capable of mounting a vertical grip. Something has to have changed.
    You're probably right, and I expected as much too. I believe the Phase 645AF and Mamiya AFDIII also required a new L bracket from the AFD/AFDII.

    Bummer, but hey it's only money.....

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I don't think there is any issue though with any older legacy glass. Dave mentioned earlier Hassy V with adapters, old mamiya and the new series D lenses. Plus the new leaf lenses. That is a lot of glass options out there.
    Confirmed. All old glass works on the new body. All the way back to the Mamiya lenses designed for the film-only 645 Pro TL and including the first generation Mamiya AF glass, as well as the Mamiya and Phase One "D" lenses and these new D LS lenses.

    As well all the third party adapted lenses such as Hassy V or Pentacon 6.

    Lots and lots of lenses

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Some of the nice (and practical) new features:

    LS lenses: through custom functions 17 and 18 you can set the body to switch from leaf shutter to focal plane shutter automatically as soon as it goes beyond 1/800 or to force it to stay with the focal plane shutter (to save shutter life). It is interesting to hear the sound changing as it switches shutters but it works really well.
    AEL and AFL buttons can be swapped.

    There are less custom functions and they are simplified, plus there are 3 "C" settings for say fashion, outdoors and still life...you can programme these to use different shutter settings, different mirror behaviour etc. The main dial does not have a lock button so you can switch settings/ modes with your thumb.

    645DF Vs 645AF:


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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Yeah, I think Jack gets more worried whenever me or Don "think the same" as him....



    I'm worried about you two PERIOD!

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Some of the nice (and practical) new features:

    LS lenses: through custom functions 17 and 18 you can set the body to switch from leaf shutter to focal plane shutter automatically as soon as it goes beyond 1/800 or to force it to stay with the focal plane shutter (to save shutter life). It is interesting to hear the sound changing as it switches shutters but it works really well.
    AEL and AFL buttons can be swapped.

    There are less custom functions and they are simplified, plus there are 3 "C" settings for say fashion, outdoors and still life...you can programme these to use different shutter settings, different mirror behaviour etc. The main dial does not have a lock button so you can switch settings/ modes with your thumb.

    645DF Vs 645AF:


    I love the 3 custom functions on the dial without lock. I never knock those off anyway so a lock is not needed but shooting events I can make 3 custom functions for jumping in and outdoors . Same for wedding guys and others as well. I like this idea


    I see a new eyecup but more important I see some change in the grip. It looks wider at the thumb area and in the front looks different , now it could be the angle this was shot as well. The changes in the little buttons looks better as well and easier to maneuver .

    Thanks for posting this, it helped me see it better.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    plus there are 3 "C" settings for say fashion, outdoors and still life...you can programme these to use different shutter settings, different mirror behaviour etc.
    We have that now -- that is 3 user custom sets -- just they are not direct on the dial, but all three under the CF icon on the dial. Actually it's 4 with user 0 as factory defaults, then 1, 2 and 3 for differing sets of custom functions.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Yea but this makes it a cake walk without looking up.
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I love the 3 custom functions on the dial without lock. I never knock those off anyway so a lock is not needed but shooting events I can make 3 custom functions for jumping in and outdoors . Same for wedding guys and others as well. I like this idea


    I see a new eyecup but more important I see some change in the grip. It looks wider at the thumb area and in the front looks different , now it could be the angle this was shot as well. The changes in the little buttons looks better as well and easier to maneuver .

    Thanks for posting this, it helped me see it better.
    The grip yes it is a bit different, the rear part is a bit wider and the bottom is narrower (less rubber) so at least for my (small) hands it feels more secure. I walked with it around Barcelona last night for 2 hrs and did not get any cramps:-)

    The focus confirmation beep is quiet enough not to disturb and works well also with V series lenses

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    I also have small hands and this sounds so much better. I suffer with arthritis and a thinner grip was what I was hoping for. This just became a no brainer for me. Upgrading immediately
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Another question regarding C1 5.0. Will we finally be able to use LCC files or the new Uniform Light tool for none IIQ Files ? For example to correct color casts from other cameras. ( Right now I'm especially thinking about the Leica m9 and wide non Leica lenses, which as for now seem to be unusable.)

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Another question regarding C1 5.0. Will we finally be able to use LCC files or the new Uniform Light tool for none IIQ Files ? For example to correct color casts from other cameras. ( Right now I'm especially thinking about the Leica m9 and wide non Leica lenses, which as for now seem to be unusable.)
    you can correct color cast in Photoshop. Of course it would be handy in C1 but at least there is a workaround...

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Hope I am reading this correctly here is the size and weight of the DF

    Size
    W, H, D // 6, 5, 7.2" // 153, 128, 184mm
    Weight
    35 oz. / 1030g. w/o batteries

    Now the AFDIII

    Size
    6"(W) x 5"(H) x 7.2"(D) (153 x 128 x 184mm)

    Weight
    61oz. (1730g). w/o batteries / 1730g

    Now that is a big difference in weight


    Here is a P40+ with DF PDF

    Than a link to the AFDIII
    http://www.mamiya.com/645afd-iii.html#Specifications
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hope I am reading this correctly here is the size and weight of the DF

    Size
    W, H, D // 6, 5, 7.2" // 153, 128, 184mm
    Weight
    35 oz. / 1030g. w/o batteries

    Now the AFDIII

    Size
    6"(W) x 5"(H) x 7.2"(D) (153 x 128 x 184mm)

    Weight
    61oz. (1730g). w/o batteries / 1730g

    Now that is a big difference in weight


    Here is a P40+ with DF PDF

    Than a link to the AFDIII
    http://www.mamiya.com/645afd-iii.html#Specifications
    Too much difference in weight. My guess is that one of the measurements is the camera with a MFDB attached.

    Is it too much of a coincidence that the link you provide is the DF with a P40+?? Tell us when it's on the way...

  42. #92
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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    I agree that is a major difference in weight and something maybe off on the AFDIII which sounds pretty heavy. I wonder about this.

    P40+ is on the radar screen and so is the S2 . So is me going to jail from robbing the bank. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I'm curious too----if the RRS or Kirk L bracket from the Phase 645AF/Mamiya AFD III will fit the new Phase 645DF, or is there a minor body change that would require an all new L bracket??
    My Arca L plate fitted it perfectly...

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Another question regarding C1 5.0. Will we finally be able to use LCC files or the new Uniform Light tool for none IIQ Files ? For example to correct color casts from other cameras. ( Right now I'm especially thinking about the Leica m9 and wide non Leica lenses, which as for now seem to be unusable.)
    I have asked Phase for this very feature....

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My Arca L plate fitted it perfectly...
    Great Tim. By chance any idea on weight does it feel lighter at all. I tend to think not but those numbers above are throwing me off.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have asked Phase for this very feature....
    You could try and shoot a LCC and correct from there. Anyone try this yet. Take that back LCC is greyed out with M9 files.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Too much difference in weight. My guess is that one of the measurements is the camera with a MFDB attached.
    The 1730g specification for the AFDIII on the MAC website comes from Mamiya Japan's product brochure, which spells out that it includes both the 80/2.8 lens and a 120/220 rollfilm back. I'd guess the P1 645DF specification is body only, no back, no lens.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    I'm still curious on the flash sync spec. No one wants to take a guess at this?

    If the camera has a custom function that switches from leaf to focal at speeds higher than 1/800th, where is the 1/1600th coming from? Certainly not from the leaf shutter. And if the camera was able to sync this high electronically (ie. using the CCD), why the need for leaf shutter lenses anyway?

    Doug? Yair? Care to chime in? Do you guys have any details on this?

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Great Tim. By chance any idea on weight does it feel lighter at all. I tend to think not but those numbers above are throwing me off.
    It's gone now but I must say that even though the new lens is larger, the combo felt very in the same ballpark as the old setup but somehow, despite looking larger, it felt a little smaller and more natural in my hands.

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    Re: New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I'm still curious on the flash sync spec. No one wants to take a guess at this?

    If the camera has a custom function that switches from leaf to focal at speeds higher than 1/800th, where is the 1/1600th coming from? Certainly not from the leaf shutter. And if the camera was able to sync this high electronically (ie. using the CCD), why the need for leaf shutter lenses anyway?

    Doug? Yair? Care to chime in? Do you guys have any details on this?

    David
    that, my friend, is smart analytical thinking! Kudos...

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