New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA

[dfarkas]

Hi David,

How long ago did you field test the S2, presumably mid-August? Was this a production model or beta review sample? Exactly which lenses did you test with it? Can you please share a few of your test pictures from each lens?


Thanks,

Jack,

I was in Germany from Aug 17-21 testing the S2 and M9, along with Michael Reichmann, Sean Reid, and Phil Askey (although Phil left early and didn't shoot with the S2).

The cameras we were given to use were Null-Series production cameras, which is the last stage of pre-production. The hardware was final except for things like body covering. The firmware was still early.

I used the 70 and 180, although I did get an opportunity to test out an early version of the 120 APO Macro. Optically it was the final design, but that particular lens didn't have an AF motor in it, so I had to manually focus using the electronic focus confirmation in the viewfinder (which works pretty well).

I will have pictures in my review...which is coming shortly.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Do us all a favor include the raws.

Also David from what I have heard of the dealers it was a sales meeting not a technical one or any testing going on. This is simply a release of a updated body and some new lenses far from being a major release like a new back or something of that nature. When The S2 was announced we had NO details over a year ago on anything from a engineering point of view. And we really still don't . You had the opportunity to test it and talk to engineers good for you but from a users seat we really still don't know anything about the guts of the S2 just like when they announced the M9 a couple weeks ago all of us only go by the specs given on any camera released and until it is out on the streets some things are not known, this is very normal. So I find it very strange you see this as some kind of hidden agenda when every manufacture tells us users very little on the guts of any camera being released and this is even less important because it is a body without any sensor involved. David half of the answers are already out there and how they did it is something we don't know just yet no one has it in there hands for testing but they figured out a way. Can we at least give them credit for that. Just like Hassy found a way with there HD4 body to do True Focus/Absolute Position Lock are we going to question the engineering or how it will actually work for the shooter. Seriously as a dealer with many products and sells Mamiya and Leica is this not good news for your business.

 

[yaya]

David and all,

My posts here and on LL about the new 645DF came after 2 days of working with it in Barcelona and I expect to have more time with it over the next days. There are already a few early production units in the field (see Tim's teasing post) so you should expect more hands-on information available soon.
The LS lenses are capable of 1/800 max shutter/ sync speed and in combination with patented (pending) technology on the Dalsa chips you'll be able to reach 1/1600. That's 2-3 times faster than the S2...
The beauty in this is that you can use an old DB (6MP-60MP...) on the new body with the new lenses and enjoy the high sync speed along with up to 1/4000 when utilising the FP shutter.

Yair

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Yair and as I mentioned earlier the legacy backs like the P30+ and P45+ Kodak sensors would only go to 1/800 and my bet is because of the wake up issue more than anything else and the new P40+ and P65+ Dalsa do not have a wake up issue and that I know since we don't need a wake cable for them. Yair forgive me but I do not know of the Leaf backs that can go either way and maybe you can go over them.

That is my assumption on this and for me with the P30+ I can get 1/800 with the LS glass and still maintain my 1/4000 when I need it. That works for me and maybe a lot of folks as well. Obviously the P40+ which is on my radar screen will do 1/6000.

So in the end it sounds like the limit is in the back itself and not the new LS lenses which is capable of the top 1/6000 speed. And only with the new body I would assume as well.

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks Yair and as I mentioned earlier the legacy backs like the P30+ and P45+ Kodak sensors would only go to 1/800 and my bet is because of the wake up issue more than anything else and the new P40+ and P65+ Dalsa do not have a wake up issue and that I know since we don't need a wake cable for them. Yair forgive me but I do not know of the Leaf backs that can go either way and maybe you can go over them.

That is my assumption on this and for me with the P30+ I can get 1/800 with the LS glass and still maintain my 1/4000 when I need it. That works for me and maybe a lot of folks as well. Obviously the P40+ which is on my radar screen will do 1/6000.

So in the end it sounds like the limit is in the back itself and not the new LS lenses which is capable of the top 1/6000 speed. And only with the new body I would assume as well.

Just for me to finally get this one - do we really talk about 1/6000 speed with the new Leaf Shutter lenses?

 

[Dale Allyn]

Peter, you forgot to multiply 1/6000 by 3.75. IOW, a typo.

1/1600 is the stated high-sync speed, provided certain equipment conditions.

 

[carstenw]

Wow, I am getting more dizzy from reading you than from a driving a roundabout at high speed. More opinion-changes

1) removable digi back and thus easily scalable to new sensor generations

If you have a backup body but no backup back, then you have a minor point (Good Point #0.5). If you have a backup body and back, you are back on par with the S2. The Phase cameras are pretty much given away with their new backs, so you will almost certainly get a new camera with every new generation of back anyway.

2) larger sensor size and more state of the art sensors (DALSA)

You may prefer larger sensors. Personally, I would take better image quality any day. Let's see how this one works out in real life.

Dalsa sensors are not better than Kodak sensors, but are just as good, with different people preferring different looks (and both sensors are able to deliver different looks, as evidenced by Leaf vs. Sinar, and Phase vs. Hasselblad). The main difference is that Phase backs can make long exposure times with the Kodak, but not the Dalsa sensor. Again, let's wait and see how the image quality works out.

3) first time leaf and shutter speed lenses in this size of MF (sorry I do still not consider Leica S2 to be a MF camera)

The "Medium" in "Medium Format" refers to cameras which lie between small format (Kleinbild, or 35mm) and large format (4x5, 8x10, ...). I think you mean something else with this.

4) new lenses from Schneider coming - for me at least equally good and great as Leica lenses, especially their new designs (and yes I know that there are some other opinions here )

Since you have never seen, used, or seen results from a Leica S lens, you are not basing this opinion on knowledge, but on something else.

5) The rest you can get very excellent Mamiya glass

Your point eludes me. "Schneiders are as good as Leicas, and Mamiyas too"? I know few people who would make statements like that, even fans of Mamiya and Schneider. A few focal lengths might be as good, but probably not more. Let's wait and see which ones. My guess: the Mamiya 150mm D, and the Schneider 110mm. The rest not. Just a guess.

You cannot use the Schneider tech camera lenses as your basis of expectation, btw., unless you plan to compare the S2 to tech cameras. Those lenses have very different constraints, and are often symmetrical designs, something not possible for more than one focal length with a bayonet mount.

6) New camera much faster

Bravo Phase, the new camera is faster than the old (slow) camera. :clap: Let's wait and see how it compares to the S2, shall we?

7) best flash sync in town - although I personally could not care less for that feature as mainly landscape photographer, but I understand that many are excited about this

Let's wait and see it get delivered, and work. I am sceptical, beyond the 1/800s, but let's see. I am willing to be pleasantly surprised.

8) most flexible system as backs are easily usable with view cameras

Good point #1.5. How many people make use of this is another matter, but for those few people, it is a point.

9) C1Pro - consider this still the best RAW PPSW together with PS CS4 after looking in the latest and greatest LR version and also Phocus

Let's judge by *final* results, shall we? You may be right, but I don't expect Leica to take this one lying down.

Peter, let's wait and see how it works out when all the products are out. Making dramatic statements at this point is only likely to get one egg on the face. Why do you so often rush to make strong statements when there is no knowledge to back them up in many cases?

Personally, I have high hopes for the S2, even if acquiring one is the subject only of my dreams. Still, I think that if Hasselblad's new focus system works, if the new Phase body is really a major step up, and the Schneider lenses are as good as you hope, and if the S2 is a resounding success, then these three together have the potential to actually *grow* the digital MF market, which would be positive all around. As long as the market is so small, it is in danger of disappearing, which would be an awful shame. I hope for the success of all the above systems, not just the one I would buy if I were thinking of doing so.

 

[stephengilbert]

I know this is a waste of time, but why is it that it is so often impossible to discuss any camera without the conversation becoming about Leicas? I love Leica cameras, but I'm not waiting eagerly to see whether David's review of the S2 is a positive one. If you like one brand or another, fine, but is it really worthwhile to argue about which of two cameras or lenses is better when you've seen neither?

 

[Christopher]

Well a few points. The Phase 150 and 80 are as good as the best Leica lenses I have ever seen. They hold up perfectly on a P65. I can't say that of a LOT of Leica lenses. R lenses on a 1DsMk3 and even M lenses on the M9. Even the 45 is extremely good. Leica first has to prove that they can actually make lenses outperforming the S2 Sensor. At that point we can start arguing. Until now we have seen NOTHING of them. What we can see is that the current top line of Phase lenses is s good as anything else out there.

Even better now that Leica has the M9 I don't have to care whether the S2 will be a success or not.

A note to Leica. Perhaps this time you should really, after the dump switch from C1 to Lightroom, wait till Adobe has a profile for the S2.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well said Stephen. I think for current Phase shooters some of these new features are worthy of the upgrade. I see some real advantages with this new body over the III. Also not mentioned in this thread is Yair mentioned the actual release is a shorter throw going down when you press to shoot. I have found this also annoying on previous models so another good plus for the upgrade.

From my seat the 1500 upgrade to the new body is well worth the cost. Besides the ability for the LS lenses which is a biggy, some of these creature comfort features certainly help and for me shutter lag and release is Maybe bigger to me than the leaf shutter. As I have said before shooting a golf swing is a real challenge to hit it at the correct timing and also in the studio shooting people, I always felt a little behind in timing. Also the custom functions on the top deck and easy to switch without looking is a big plus and than the slight grip change for me always bugged me because of my arthritis. Plus on resale you have a new body if you go down that route at some point.

This also puts the DSLR thoughts even further on the back burner for me. Something I have been avoiding since I went MF. So no matter what I do or plan this is money well spent at least for me. may not matter for some folks and I can certainly see why not especially landscape shooters but for a generalist like me that shoots a good variety of stuff than I am all over this.

Time for football

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well a few points. The Phase 150 and 80 are as good as the best Leica lenses I have ever seen. They hold up perfectly on a P65. I can't say that of a LOT of Leica lenses. R lenses on a 1DsMk3 and even M lenses on the M9. Even the 45 is extremely good. Leica first has to prove that they can actually make lenses outperforming the S2 Sensor. At that point we can start arguing. Until now we have seen NOTHING of them. What we can see is that the current top line of Phase lenses is s good as anything else out there.

Even better now that Leica has the M9 I don't have to care whether the S2 will be a success or not.

A note to Leica. Perhaps this time you should really, after the dump switch from C1 to Lightroom, wait till Adobe has a profile for the S2.

I have most of the D lenses and the 150 is just flat out untouchable. I very very rarely ever give any lens that kind of credit. My 28 , 45 and 80 are also extremely good. Problem is and no matter what Phase does it can't fight the bad stigma of the name Mamiya and now I own a lot of these lenses it is the biggest bunch of BS i have ever seen is the negative bias towards them. Sorry it just had to be said. Hassy, Phase and no doubt the S2 lenses are all very good especially any of the modern lenses. Sure there maybe a few dogs on the porch but these are mostly older generation glass both on the Hassy and Mamiya end and that does include Zeiss as well.

 

[Jack]

Have to agree with the above -- there seems to be a lot of Leica fan-boyism along with an equal part of Mamiya-discrimination here. Bottom line is just like Christopher and Guy said, my Mamiya 80D, 150D and 75-150D zoom are among the best lenses I have ever used PERIOD, and this includes digital Schneiders, Leica, Zeiss and Canon L!

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Hear hear, Jack/Guy. I've used an awful lot of lenses over the last 50 years and we're now getting to the point of estimating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

ALL these lenses are generally superb (every barrel has the odd bad apple) and people are now simply stating their preferences (or their biases) and not hard facts about relative performance.

Bill

 

[Jack]

Bill,

I think you are just saying what I was. I did not mean to imply the Mamiya lenses were "better" than the others, but then this is a thread on the new Mamiya body . IMO there isn't a lot of significant brand to brand differences in modern designs; when lenses are good, they're good, regardless of brand. I do believe that certain legacy lenses render uniquely, but this is often due to aberrations (optical flaws) that happen to create visually pleasing effects.

That's all,

 

[Rethmeier]

Mayor omission here!
What about Nikon lenses?
Nikon's 14-24 ,2/200 and 24-70 have no equals in the DSLR arena.

 

[Jack]

Mayor omission here!
What about Nikon lenses?
Nikon's 14-24 ,2/200 and 24-70 have no equals in the DSLR arena.

I don't shoot with Nikon, but have heard those are excellent too! So is the Panasonic 14-45 zoom and 20mm for micro 4/3rds. Just more confirmation that there are lots of great optical options available to us. But once again, this is a thread on the new Mamiya body .

Cheers,

 

[jingq]

for me the issue has always been about focusing accuracy.
the autofocus on the mamiya has never made me feel secure
I have the magnifier and even that never made me feel very confident.
I was shooting with a hassy 110mm f/2 wide open and a mamiya 80mm f/1.9 and in the end had to rely on constantly checking the laptop at 100% to ensure my focus was right.

you can have the BEST lenses in the world but all that is for naught if the camera body does not give you the confidence of accurate focus.

Also, shutter lag is a horribly important issue, if you shoot people then even a fraction of a second makes a difference in the expression you capture.

I'm sure the phase one people dealt with it...I hope.

 

[ptomsu]

Well, it is interesting that my enthusiasm about the next steps we see from Phase and my statements based on my lifetime expertise with some other brands (cameras and lenses) made such big waves here

I knew that David is a big Leica fan, but that Carsten seems to be similar biased is somehow new for me

I did not say that Leica is worse or better or any other camera and lens, especially the S2, but the S2 will have to prove it's acclaimed quality first!

I just said that the concept of Phase and what they are doing obviously for their future lineup appeals VERY MUCH to me. More than Leica S2 and much more than Hasselblad with their H4D.

And this is mainly based on the fact that I am shooting landscapes and want the most flexible and upgradeable path in front of me and my investments. If I were a model shooter or in fashion or in action the story might look different, but for me the Phase system seems to be the best overall compromise for the work I am doing and plan to do in the next future.

And BTW with some promotions as there are currently with Phase in Austria I can get a camera plus P40+ plus 80 for €12500.- and if I add some more €2000.- I can have the new body and the new Schneider 80 (all excluding VAT). This is definitely far below the S2 plus 70 for €23.000.- excluding VAT! And I get a well proven system with Phase, which I cannot with the S2!

BTW I just got the large format fine art prints for my next exhibition here in Austria and they were all made with Phase P45+, P40+ and P65+ on Phase cameras and View cameras, and they are all exceptional in terms of IQ. I really doubt I can add some more quality when shooting the same with the S System - no way, the only thing is I would limit myself to pano and stitching and have NO view camera compatibility

So I think i know what i am talking about WRT my landscape fine art shooting and workflow style - not that you could not do it similar things with Leica S2 or Hasselblad, but definitely not as efficient and future proof and "cheap" as with the gear I involved and for sure not with better IQ. And keep in mind here I had NOT the new Schneider glass as it will become available now and I am putting much hope in these lenses.

Hope that helps clarify and cool down the Leica hype a bit

 

[carstenw]

I knew that David is a big Leica fan, but that Carsten seems to be similar biased is somehow new for me

I don't see why you see my numerous "let's wait and see" comments as biased, while thinking that your own statements about the excellence of the new Schneider lenses over the S2 lenses are factual (you have used neither)?

I am a Leica fan, yes, but I am no fanboy. My regard for Leica is based on my experience with R and M lenses, both of which routinely exceed the quality of what is available from the competition, in my experience, and in fact, in the experience of many people here. Sure, there are occasional brilliant lenses from any company, but I have not seen a lens range from *any* company which manages to be so uniformly excellent as the Leica M lens range, and this is not just stopped down, but more difficultly, from wide open.

My expectation is that the Leica S lenses will do the same in MF, but I am always qualifying this with "let's wait and see" comments, to keep perspective. I speak in no blanket generalities here.

 

[Christopher]

Well Carsten it is true that Leica offers a great selection of M and R lenses. Most of them are fantastic. However one point is, you are talking about a lens range. Well the S2 has none at launch. Sure this will happen over time, but it takes time and I don't think we will see a 35 or many more lenses before next year. I am still interested in the S2 System. Could even imagine getting one with just the 30-90 however, first they have to prove the quality. Something my Phase System has done. (a S2 Sytem would and CAN not replace my phase back. Cause I need it on the large format camera, but perhaps my Canon and Phase camera system. On the other hand there is the question, how attractive the S2 will be next year, once Sony, Nikon and Canon get their 28Mp + cameras out. Certainly that is not medium format and lenses are not as good. However you would just pay 6k to 8k and I think especially Nikon has shown, that they can make outstanding lenses.)