Jumping in to MF!! P45 or H3DII-39? Advise..Please :)

[KETCH ROSSI]

Hi guys,

first of all I like to say that this is a fantastic gathering of people, and I have been reading many of your posts with pleasure, and finally decided to join, as to involve myself in this great community.

I have sold all my 35mm FF gear and now making the jump to MF and really know nothing about it well very little, all from reading, so I'm really looking for expert advise, based on experience, initially I will spend about 10k only, as this would be just a test of the platform, and then after having operated and analyzed the system workflow I will make the full jump to the latest available by the manufacturer chosen.

I will shoot primarily, but not exclusively, High Fashion Commercial work, some Architectural and Landscape, but most of my paid work will come from Fashion with some limited Architectural work.

You can view some of my play work (please note that this is a fun site for me, TFP/CD, No paid work posted) http://www.modelmayhem.com/KETCHFRAME​

After much research I'm still a bit confused, but at list I know that I either will be a Phase One user or a Hasselblad one, with this in mind I'm looking to purchase a Used Phase One P45 DB or a Used Hasselblad H3DII-39 as a start, and as I said depending on which system I buy I will build on it to then upgrade to the latest available, either the Phase One P65+ or H4D-60.

At times I think that the P45 brings deeper tonalities and better DR then the H3DII-39, but this I know can also be from how the files are processed and delivered, so I'm not too concerned with it as I know both systems will be great, I definitely will want to save all my Raw files in DNG format, even so not sure about the Phocus vs. P1-4 Pro, but again I believe that I could easily get accustom to either, integrating their workflow to my Bridge, LR2 and CS4 Post, also a bit confused on how the two manufacturers list their Bits, P45 says is 16 Bits per color total 48 Bits, and Hassy says 14 Bit, total 16 Bit?!! I now that I absolutely want the highest Bit of color and also Highest DR, this is for sure, so some further light shad on this would be appreciated.

I definitely will not jump manufacturer at the moment of upgrading, so is important for me to make the right decision from the start, I also will not mix P1/Hassy, even so many do, I will not start using a much older H1 or H2 with the P45, but rather I would get the Mamiya AFD645 III (Phase One AF 645) to then change the body to the new upcoming Phase One DF as soon as it becomes available.

If I go the Hassy route then I just, as said above get the full H3DII-39 kit and then move to the Hassy H4D-60.

I'm in Vegas now and looking to book a trip to LA area and definitely visit some shops as to hand held the two systems again, but in the mean time I'm interested in your opinions based on experience with this two systems, their benefits and their cons, based on my applications, such as AF will be important at times, but I shoot MF mostly, I need tethered capacity to be able to connect my 17" Mac to a 30" Cinema Display so that I can have greater control over my work, and also make my clients happier and don't get frustrated not been able to see what is going on, ( I'm a Director/Producer and most of my clients are accustomed to see what I'm doing while observing my Director's monitors with me), so this feature is important, and it was one of the very frustrating workflows with 35mm, so I hope that this two systems and their SW programs will provide for a far better and more professional way of doing it. Btw, would either systems allowed for Live view on the Monitors while Tethered? As to check focus for extreme close ups, and rare Table top/Macro work?

As far as the glass I believe that both systems offer great glass solutions especially now that Mamiya has their new glass, but I would not mind at al to been able to use the Contax/Zeiss glass on either system (would it be possible? Worth the trouble?) at the end for me, with glass the only thing that matters is that the glass be as SHARP as possible, as any color cast and minor defects can be easily corrected in post, but Sharpness is a must for me.

Nonetheless, any Glass advise in both system would also be greatly appreciated.

Look forward in discussing this with you.

Thank you,

Ketch Rossi

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually a tough call . They are basically the same sensor the H39 and P45 at one time it was a decision between a leaf shutter or a focal plane one and now with the new Phase body you can do both although limited to three new lenses 55,80 and 110. I'm a Phase shooter so i can only give you my perspective but again I do like the Hassy stuff as well and came to the same decisions awhile ago but partly based on a focal plane shutter that can do 1/4000 speed and I always used C1. Many other factors as well like build quality of back and 4 button function buttons I liked and all that. Either way they are both great systems with great glass as well. Nice thing is you can get in cheaply with glass and upgrade as needed. Obviously first and best advice is do your research and homework by reading as much as you can the forum is loaded with great data to help in that area and even better advice is try them out and see what fits you better and what software you prefer as well. Both of these systems have software directly for tethered shooting with each system so going outside the box here is not a good call . Phocus and C1 are both excellent tethered programs for each system and also excellent raw convertors as well. Going to ACR will not take advantage of either systems corrections that they have for each system as well. So again software is very important here since Hassy and Phase rely on there software for lens corrections and such. So straying outside of that dedicated software is something you really may want to avoid. I believe both systems can make a DNG but i find that less important than having dedicated software for each system. You can download both of them free and try them.

Think system when making the purchase and think less than getting a good deal first that is secondary in a MF purchase . Find what system you like than look for the deal because i have seen too many folks looking at the deal and not being happy with the system after the fact . Used there some nice deals out there to start.

End of the day you will get excellent quality with either system so at least that is something not to worry about too much but it does come down to your preferences and your style of shooting.

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Thanks Guy for your replay,

yes I definitely did so much research and reading that I believe I found my self ready to take the second step and make a post and just go for it, I now am in the process to go and test out the systems to make my final decision, but wanted to gather as much info directly related to my needs as possible, hence this post.

I intend to definitely use each individual integrated Software system, and not jumping ships just as I wouldn't do so with the Backs, if I go Hassy I stay with it form Capture to post, and only after I would import in to Bridge/Lightroom for cataloging and then to CS4 Photoshop for retouching work.

Yes it is a tuff call as i like both systems, and I'm not basing my decision on what deal would I get, other wise I would go with the cheapest option and go with P1/Contax, but instead I will go with the system that will at the end appeal to me most, based on User experience and which one I fill more comfortable with, after having taken out of the way some more questions

As far as Sync speeds, this are not important to me, as I use mostly available outdoor lighting with reflectors, and Continuos Daylight fixtures, which I also use in My Motion Pictures work, HMI, Fluorescents, and LED's.

Thanks again for your imput much appreciated.

Ciao,

Ketch Rossi

 

[thomas]

After much research I'm still a bit confused, but at list I know that I either will be a Phase One user or a Hasselblad one, with this in mind I'm looking to purchase a Used Phase One P45 DB or a Used Hasselblad H3DII-39 as a start

Though I have a P45 it would be the last DB I'd consider for fashion. Actually for fashion you possibly want to have a higher frame rate. The P45 / H-39 are relatively slow (2 frames in 3 seconds or so). This is why fashion shooters often take a P21, P30, H-31 or comparable DBs from Leaf or Sinar. The new P40+, though 40MP, is faster as well.

At times I think that the P45 brings deeper tonalities and better DR then the H3DII-39

I don't think so but have never made or seen a comparision. The upside of the P45 is long exposure, anything else I expect to be similar.

I definitely will want to save all my Raw files in DNG format

you definitely will re-think this as all the MFDB files come to their full beauty only in the manufacturers software that supports the native RAW files.

P45 says is 16 Bits per color total 48 Bits, and Hassy says 14 Bit, total 16 Bit?!!

supposedly the files are natively 14bit but the A/D converter makes 16bit files. I couldn't care less about the real number of bits: you can beat MF files as hell without producing artefacts.

Highest DR

P65+ or D3X

If I go the Hassy route then I just, as said above get the full H3DII-39 kit and then move to the Hassy H4D-60.

they just announced a new (old) upgrade path... probably interessting for you.

Btw, would either systems allowed for Live view on the Monitors while Tethered?

basically yes. Regarding the P45 you have to look for one that is capable of. The P45 originally had no live view but there are a lot around that have.

Contax/Zeiss

do you have a Contax system? I'd seriously consider to stay with the system and if you upgrade in the future you may or may not change the DB for the new mount (additional costs in the case of Phase One). In this case the sole new thing to learn is the DB and you safe some money (at least short term). The Contax system is actually the sole MF system that is complete... regarding lenses and acessories (NO battery holder / vertical grip for Mamiya or Hasselblad... thinking about portraits).

Also note that Leaf is still alive (Phase One bought Leaf). So I think it should be possible to switch from Leaf to P1 and vice versa depending on the dealer.
BTW: good support is important. So the dealer question is not negligible.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes I did not get into all your shooting needs per say but like Thomas mentioned for fashion the H31 or P30 is better suited towards that for speed reasons mostly

 

[thomas]

I use mostly available outdoor lighting with reflectors, and Continuos Daylight fixtures, which I also use in My Motion Pictures work, HMI, Fluorescents, and LED's.

depending on the power of your light sources you should look for a DB that performs well at least at ISO400 ... so regarding last generation (or earlier) DBs you should take a back with microlenses (H-31, P21+, P30+ or so...). These backs are not the first choice on a view camera with movements (you mentined architecture above...) but are one stop better regarding ISO and less prone to moire.

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Thomas,

thanks for thanking the time and carefully responding to my thread, much appreciated.

NO I don't have any MF gear, just like the Contax/Zeiss lenses

I did put some tough on the H3DII-31 and P30 for the speed reasons but the true and most important factor for me is Print Size and the extra MP's on the 39 could surely make a difference, minimum prints will be 13x19" and far above, but in truth could be that the difference might not be as big to loose the Speed on the P30 and or H3DII-31, so any additional points on it would be surely appreciated, and yes I do shoot mostly hand held Portraits, with very limited Architectural/Landscape/Table Top Macro work on Sticks.

The DNG conversion would only be after having processed the files in their individual software, not before.


Capture and processing RAW files in Proprietary Software, export in to DNG to Cataloging, and then to CS4 for Retouching, then save in to any format as needed.
Guy thanks for the added support on the H3DII-31 and P30, now I hope I get some more clarifications for them.

Ciao,

Ketch Rossi

 

[kdphotography]

Yes I did not get into all your shooting needs per say but like Thomas mentioned for fashion the H31 or P30 is better suited towards that for speed reasons mostly

I think the P30/P30+ remains in the "sweet spot" for MFDBs.

And, I heard a rumor (if not, I'm starting the rumor now) that Guy Mancuso is going to be selling his Phase P30+ (like new) so he can upgrade to the new Phase 645DF and P40+ at the same time..... Talk to Guy now for a great deal!

:ROTFL:

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

depending on the power of your light sources you should look for a DB that performs well at least at ISO400 ... so regarding last generation (or earlier) DBs you should take a back with microlenses (H-31, P21+, P30+ or so...). These backs are not the first choice on a view camera with movements (you mentined architecture above...) but are one stop better regarding ISO and less prone to moire.

Not sure I understand your point here Thomas, are you saying that the 30/31 range are better suited for my Hand held Portrait work or not?

I think the P30/P30+ remains in the "sweet spot" for MFDBs.

And, I heard a rumor (if not, I'm starting the rumor now) that Guy Mancuso is going to be selling his Phase P30+ (like new) so he can upgrade to the new Phase 645DF and P40+ at the same time..... Talk to Guy now for a great deal!

:ROTFL:

Hehe, unfortunately I will not go over the P45/H3DII-39 range as starting point.

Ciao,

Ketch Rossi

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I have a lot of images in my gallery with the P30 , some P45 and some P25 plus a ton on the threads as well. The P30 and H31 are a nice balance between speed of camera , higher ISO work and output of file. Basically a generalist dream back which is a lot of what i do is a lot of different types of shooting. The 39 mpx are great but don't want to really get over ISO 400 with them. This is a good time to look at budget too is between the 31 and 39 backs and see what area you can fit into comfortably as well. Price difference in general between 31 and 39 might be around 5 or 6 grand lower. Obviously that varies widely as well. The difference between 31 and 39 as far as detail is concerned is there but not a worldly difference . I did do a test with the P30+,P40+ and P45+ in this forum that maybe of some help in deciding the quality side both with ISO and detail http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090

Also there are some differences on the Phase side between the non plus and plus backs as well including costs too. If you can money wise and resale wise go for the Plus backs and they do provide a little better LCD plus some other goodies which i can't remember them all.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think the P30/P30+ remains in the "sweet spot" for MFDBs.

And, I heard a rumor (if not, I'm starting the rumor now) that Guy Mancuso is going to be selling his Phase P30+ (like new) so he can upgrade to the new Phase 645DF and P40+ at the same time..... Talk to Guy now for a great deal!

:ROTFL:

Geez and my wife is looking over my shoulder giving me that LOOK. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

I have a lot of images in my gallery with the P30 , some P45 and some P25 plus a ton on the threads as well. The P30 and H31 are a nice balance between speed of camera , higher ISO work and output of file. Basically a generalist dream back which is a lot of what i do is a lot of different types of shooting. The 39 mpx are great but don't want to really get over ISO 400 with them. This is a good time to look at budget too is between the 31 and 39 backs and see what area you can fit into comfortably as well. Price difference in general between 31 and 39 might be around 5 or 6 grand lower. Obviously that varies widely as well. The difference between 31 and 39 as far as detail is concerned is there but not a worldly difference . I did do a test with the P30+,P40+ and P45+ in this forum that maybe of some help in deciding the quality side both with ISO and detail http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090

Also there are some differences on the Phase side between the non plus and plus backs as well including costs too. If you can money wise and resale wise go for the Plus backs and they do provide a little better LCD plus some other goodies which i can't remember them all.

Yes Guy I hear your points, the difference in ISO on the P30 vs. P45 is double as listed form 400 to 800, price on the used are pretty similar for systems I'm currently looking at we are talking 2K tops, so not too much of a difference budget wise, but in thru I see speed not been an issue on this DB's at list, as they only vrie of 5 frames per minute, not in off to make a difference really, going to check the Hassy's.

Edit: Yes speed on the Hassy is even lees of a difference so no issues on either one.



On 35mm I never shot over 200 ISO, but then again MF is a new world to me.


ciao,

Ketch Rossi

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes and you have to remember speed wise in hand holding your going to need more in MF plus the DOF issue as well. So these things do add up.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Shooting a hand held portrait for example with a 100mm lens the DOF even at F8 is very slim if you are pretty close.

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Shooting a hand held portrait for example with a 100mm lens the DOF even at F8 is very slim if you are pretty close.

This is yet an other issue that the crop DB bring in the P30 and H31, one other reason that I preferred the P45 and H39 for as they fill more of the sensor area and there for giving a shallower DOF.

I like to stay away from Cropped sensors and 1.3 might not seem as much but did make a big difference for me n the 35mm world, so I imagine it would be o difference in the MF one.

Ciao,

Ketch Rossi

 

[thomas]

most important factor for me is Print Size and the extra MP's on the 39 could surely make a difference, minimum prints will be 13x19" and far above

you can do 13''x19'' with a small DSLR. Even the P21+ is a waste for such a stamp size. Keep in mind that 200% enlargement is a joke... printed at 300dpi this is still smaller than a 100% view on a monitor. This applies especially to MF files. I am printing 48'' on the short side even from single shots (so without stitching) of the P45.

Not sure I understand your point here Thomas, are you saying that the 30/31 range are better suited for my Hand held Portrait work or not?

yes, I'd say so due to better ISO performance. The P45 is a ISO50 and maybe ISO100 back; ISO200 and ISO400 are useable but you need a lot of light (or exposure) but in real low light the high ISO of the P45 are really not so good. The P45+ is better in this regard... but more expensive (in this price range the P40+ would be better for you).

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Okay on the ISO.

As far as the print size, I did had a 1Ds III, and the 13 x 19" is my minimum print size, @240dpi and above.

 

[Nick-T]

FYI the H4D50 will shoot faster than the 31 Just to complicate an already complicated decision making process..

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

FYI the H4D50 will shoot faster than the 31 Just to complicate an already complicated decision making process..

No worries Nick, you will not complicate things, not in the budget of my starting MF try out phase

Btw what does really Phase One means by this:

Digital image
Single exposure:
24 bit RGB: 112 MB
48 bit RGB: 224 MB
64 bit CMYK: 299 MB

 

[Nick-T]

No worries Nick, you will not complicate things, not in the budget of my starting MF try out phase

Btw what does really Phase One means by this:

Digital image
Single exposure:
24 bit RGB: 112 MB
48 bit RGB: 224 MB
64 bit CMYK: 299 MB

These look like file sizes for the P45.
P45=39 Megapixels * 3 (RGB=3 channels) =117 MB (not sure why their files are 112MB)
24 bit means 8 bits per channel.
48 bit is 16 bits per channel so double the file size and CMYK is four channels so in 16bit is nearly 300MB.

Clear as mud?
Nick-T