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Thread: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

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    The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    My apologies for not starting on a positive note, but that is life.

    In another Hasselblad thread, I wrote the following in response to a comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The 28mm and the 35-90mm zoom are HCD lenses (as opposed to HC) and won't cover full frame, i.e. they cannot cover the H4D-60, AFAIK, at least not at the same quality level. However, the difference is minimal, so they might still be acceptable for some uses.

    Personally, I find it to be an acceptable limitation, although one does have to wonder about Hasselblad management's ability to foresee their own future. In short order they have moved from one full-frame definition to another (at least the 28mm lens's focal length is actually equivalent, on a 36x48mm sensor, and not the real focal length) and then back again, and in the short time in between, released two lenses which are not fully compatible with the latter definition. Not so impressive, but again, not so serious, in this case.
    David Grover from Hasselblad jumped in:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Carsten,

    Apologies for being a little bit aggressive but this is a muck raking post to me, regarding 'Hasselblad management's ability to foresee their own future'.

    People forget that we do not alone make the H4D60. There are existing users of 22MP cameras and not forgetting the current 31,39 and 50 models. Therefore the 28mm and 35-90 are extremely useful to all those customers. They form a significantly larger proportion of users than potential 60 customers.

    Should we therefore cancel those two lenses because they are 'only' compatible with 4 out of 5 sensors? No, I don't think so.

    Also with regards to the 60 the 28mm only loses about 5% of sensor area and on the 35-90 it is only at the widest setting. There is no issue with quality level.

    I have explained this many times before, but if you want to keep mentioning it, please go ahead.
    The part of my comment which appears to have upset David is the questioning of Hasselblad's management's ability to see their own future.

    David, I don't feel you have addressed that in your post. You ask if Hasselblad should cancel the two mentioned lenses, because they don't cover the 60 fully.

    To me that misses the point. The built-in crop factor in those lenses is minimal. I postulate that if Hasselblad had known that they in such a short amount of time would also produce a near-full-frame sensor, they would not have designed two lenses with such a minimal crop factor, but made them cover full frame, be slightly larger, and cost slightly more. Then they would have worked across the entire range with no limitations. Hence my comment about Hasselblad management's ability to see their own future. There are other examples, but this one is a biggie.

    ---

    David, I respect you and your work here, and I respect Hasselblad as a digital medium format company. I don't think that this means that I should not be able to post a negative comment.

    For the record, my opinion (only) on Hasselblad positives (many I am lifting from Hasselblad owner commentary, since I have no experience myself):

    - The most complete MF system today

    - A lens range of near-uniform high quality (there are maybe one or two lenses not as strong as the rest; easy to work around)

    - The brightest viewfinder in the business

    - A very high degree of integration, with a single battery, etc.

    - HTC15

    but also some negatives:

    - Grey on brown. What can I say, I find it horrendous. I have never heard a single positive comment on this. Photographers are boring and predictable, yes, but just give them the black camera they want. Somehow I am sure that you have asked for this personally

    - Hasselblad switched from open to closed with no warning to existing owners, some of whom were caught out by this (read: H2+P1 back owners).

    - Hasselblad announced a new full-frame format and released two lenses for it, only to revert to standard FF-645 notions in short order.

    - Hasselblad has largely (not completely; see CFV-39 etc.) ignored their legacy users. I understand that at a certain time in Hasselblad's history, wrong priorities made the company nearly fail, and the new system saved them, but there are still untold thousands of V cameras and lenses out there, with owners who would like a bone thrown in their direction from time to time.

    There is more on both sides, but I'll stop here.
    Last edited by carstenw; 7th October 2009 at 00:58.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Hi Carsten,

    Couple of comments:

    1. I question the "be slightly larger, and cost slightly more" (well
    all relative of course, at least to my wallet measures i question
    the "cost slightly more")

    2. The HCD 4/28 was introduced at Photokina 2006, means
    more than 3 years of appreciation of that fine wide angle lens
    before Hasselblad entered the FF645 market. So I don't get your
    point here.

    3. Hasselblad must have known they're going FF645 when the HCD
    35-90 was introduced (both happened at photokina 2008), so
    i wouldn't see it as "management ability to foresee their own
    future".
    In fact if you ever had a HC 50-110 in one hand and the HCD 35-90 in
    the other, the 50-110 has the appeal of a bucket (sorry Dave) whereas
    the 35-90 is slick and great to hold in the hand.

    I'm not going FF645 in the foreseeable future, so i really appreciate the
    HCD lenses (and as Dave mentioned, it's not that they don't work on the
    H4D-60)

    Just my 2 cents.

    Ralf

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Well Carsten,

    Lens design does not happen overnight. The 28mm and 35-90 were a long project, started before even Kodak or Dalsa promised to deliver larger / 645 sensors. If we could design and bring to production a lens within 6 months, then it could have been a different story. But no amount of seeing into the future, would have helped in this case.

    Also 'making them be slightly larger' is no easy task. This would not make then just a bit more expensive but actually a lot more expensive. I have spoken to our lens designer about this at length, many times. There would also be an added weight penalty.

    I don't have any issue with you posting negative comments, you of course can like or dislike whatever we make! ;-) But in cases where you are factually incorrect I feel I need to step in.

    - Hasselblad has largely (not completely; see CFV-39 etc.) ignored their legacy users. I understand that at a certain time in Hasselblad's history, wrong priorities made the company nearly fail, and the new system saved them, but there are still untold thousands of V cameras and lenses out there, with owners who would like a bone thrown in their direction from time to time.


    I have to disagree here.

    We make the CFV39 as you pointed out and also the CF39 available in single and multi shot. Have really the only cable free solution and offer digital lens corrections on the V system too.

    We sell all the Zeiss lenses they are still willing to make, service the cameras and sell new bodies. Phocus fully supports the CFV / CF range.

    What more could we do in fact?

    David

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rmueller View Post
    Hi Carsten,

    Couple of comments:

    1. I question the "be slightly larger, and cost slightly more" (well
    all relative of course, at least to my wallet measures i question
    the "cost slightly more")

    2. The HCD 4/28 was introduced at Photokina 2006, means
    more than 3 years of appreciation of that fine wide angle lens
    before Hasselblad entered the FF645 market. So I don't get your
    point here.

    3. Hasselblad must have known they're going FF645 when the HCD
    35-90 was introduced (both happened at photokina 2008), so
    i wouldn't see it as "management ability to foresee their own
    future".
    In fact if you ever had a HC 50-110 in one hand and the HCD 35-90 in
    the other, the 50-110 has the appeal of a bucket (sorry Dave) whereas
    the 35-90 is slick and great to hold in the hand.

    I'm not going FF645 in the foreseeable future, so i really appreciate the
    HCD lenses (and as Dave mentioned, it's not that they don't work on the
    H4D-60)

    Just my 2 cents.

    Ralf
    You are 100% correct on all your points, Ralf.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Maybe Hasselblad should just have named them "dx"-lenses.

    Seriously I also see nothing wrong-however it does clearly show that its hard to predict today what developments we can expect tomorrow and it does give me hope that I might be able to use a 6x6 sensor in the future not too far away from today. Would be great for al Hassy V-users and also for us Hy6-users.
    Last edited by Paratom; 7th October 2009 at 02:46.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    I just don't understand this constant harping on what could have been/should have been. It is almost like people take Hasselblads (or any other camera manufacturer) decisions personally. People, these camera's aren't designed JUST FOR YOU. There are always going to be compromises and near misses. Just the way life is. However, we as consumers, have the ultimate control in that we can choose to buy or not to buy. I was a huge Leica supporter. Owned almost every R lens they made but recently they dumped the R line from digital consideration so I dumped them. Technology changes so fast these days it is anyone's guess as to what is around the corner. Legacy complaints are almost irrelevant today if a camera company is going to stay competitive. Film days are over and so are "film days rules."

    Get over it.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Grey on brown. What can I say, I find it horrendous. I have never heard a single positive comment on this. Photographers are boring and predictable, yes, but just give them the black camera they want.
    Carsten, I note with interest that this important issue hasn't yet been addressed here.

    What can I say, as an H3D11 user I go to bed at night and I'm unable to sleep for worrying about the colour, in the mornings it's the first thing I think about. People openly laugh at my camera, I'm at the stage where I'm ashamed to be seen in public with it, people can be so cruel.

    Please, donít tell me that if this is the most "horrendous" thing I ever have to cope with then I'm going to lead a charmed life, it doesn't help.


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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Keith,

    Kata makes a couple of great rain covers for the camera...maybe we can get them to do a J Bond Titanium version. Then we could walk through the city square without a furtive glance at all those laughing at our cameras.

    Truth be told I always liked my 501 in chrome...and the color is pretty poor.

    Bob

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Well put folks.

    It's bad enough to see the never-ending, infantile, utterly predictable and tiresome, "yeah, but ..." fanboyism vs reasoned and open-minded discussion on places like DPR and LUF.

    When it's in a forum discussing $20K+ MFDBs all of whom lack AA filters, all of whom buy their sensors from the same 2-3 players, all of whom have (or will have) nice glass, that are supposedly shot/bought (and retailed) by folks who should be a bit more mature, experienced and professional than the average GWC (Guy With Camera) or GWCS (Guy With Camera Store) it's simply sad.

    Being a die-hard fan of X is one thing but when the "but it's better than ___ because..." model that's being pushed hasn't been released yet, not been shot in anger by ANYONE without a Leica-centric vested interest and not so much as had a single RAW shot posted anywhere, such commentary is a lot of things, not the least of which premature.
    Last edited by robmac; 7th October 2009 at 06:30.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    The MF market is an area where we have a small number of great systems, some more mature and advanced as others, some more open as others, but none of them really being better or worse!

    It comes to personal preferences, style, needs etc. to determine the right system. And as with all other systems once you are in you are caught - even more in MF as there is more money involved.

    So finally buy what you need and what you can afford and do not complain about things which are not where. It is useless, stupid and does not move anything.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Hasselblad is a brand, that brand was bought in total by imacon..so I have been surprised and impressed over the past 6 years at how they have catered to the old V stuff given their digital non-legacy roots.
    In fact most in the industry thinks of Hasselblad as being the same company of 10 years ago. Being a hasselblad digital user I would hope this forum is a place for free airing of constructive crits of all brands..subjectively pointing out a system's shortcomings( they all have them) should be welcomed by the shooters, I am sure it makes the factory guys squirm. Unless I am totally naive this forum is not a marketing venue for x,y or z..(besides the obvious workshops by known powers) It would be a shame to have those who think this as an open forum be shouted down and not post..We all have our biases but I want to hear all perspectives. All these systems are very close and it is our subject take on them that separates and defines the differences.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    All are welcome and all brands are welcome and it always was and will be that way. As long as it always follows the mantra of this forum.

    "A place to exchange ideas, techniques, experiences AND images,
    where the discussions are fun, respectful and geared toward the goal of
    helping each other improve all aspects of our photography."
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Lens design does not happen overnight. The 28mm and 35-90 were a long project, started before even Kodak or Dalsa promised to deliver larger / 645 sensors. If we could design and bring to production a lens within 6 months, then it could have been a different story. But no amount of seeing into the future, would have helped in this case.
    The design of the lenses is only half the story. The other half is what message is sent to users, and when. Do you have a date on when Hasselblad announced the new full format (36x48mm) and a date on when Hasselblad knew that full frame sensors were coming?

    Also 'making them be slightly larger' is no easy task. This would not make then just a bit more expensive but actually a lot more expensive. I have spoken to our lens designer about this at length, many times. There would also be an added weight penalty.
    Sure, I understand that, and the relationship is surely not linear. But when you are talking, your words, about a 5% difference in coverage, the difference on the overall lens design cannot be earthshaking.

    We make the CFV39 as you pointed out and also the CF39 available in single and multi shot. Have really the only cable free solution and offer digital lens corrections on the V system too.

    We sell all the Zeiss lenses they are still willing to make, service the cameras and sell new bodies. Phocus fully supports the CFV / CF range.

    What more could we do in fact?
    In fact, this item is more historical than current, since the CFV39 helped a lot, but I think that the thing to do at the time would have been to ensure a smooth transition from the F system to digital. In fact it took a very long time to get something decent going, and there are still loose corners, like the fact that you lose ISO ability with the FCC backs to go digital. The last few cameras were sold within such short time of digital rise, and the cost of those cameras were so high, that catering to the lowest common denominator (503CW) was a mistake. Anyway, water under the bridge.

    My point in all of this is that when one looks at decisions past, one wonders what the next weird decision will be.

    I don't want to say that Hasselblad is the primary culprit in this; Phase has certainly also done some odd things, and so on. Sadly the two companies which in my mind treat their customers with more respect (Leaf, Sinar) are also the two which aren't doing so well.

    ---

    I find it curious that nearly all the rest of the comments in this thread fail to address any substantive issues, and instead attack the strawman of the colour scheme. I only said I didn't like it, and many others don't either; I never said that I would not buy a Hasselblad because of it. It is just that every time I would pick up the camera, I would think to myself "the colour scheme isn't important, just the results". Wouldn't it be much nicer to think "what a gorgeous camera, what great results" every time?

    And of course someone managed to squeeze in the topic of Leica in this thread too. And so it goes, ho-hum.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The MF market is an area where we have a small number of great systems, some more mature and advanced as others, some more open as others
    actually the systems are not great. Alltogther. All systems are missing certain acessories or lenses or whatever.
    "Great" are some of the lenses, the IQ, the look.
    As to "mature and advanced" I really have to say (as a Phase user) that Hasselblad clearly seems to be much more advanced than P1 (camera wise). They have different view finders (for me this would be very important), they calibrate the digital backs to the bodies and correct AF for focus shift. The new APL (?) feature is certainly interessting as well. I don't know if all these features work great, I'd assume they do to some extend, but there is simply nothing comparable from Phase (again: I'm talking about the camera side).
    I use a Contax and focus manually all the time - so all this is not an issue for me personally. But if I would need AF I'd certainly consider Hasselblad rather than P1 (or an S2 ... if it finally works).

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Couple of points.

    Imacon did not take over Hasselblad. Shriro who owned Hasselblad bought Imacon for their digital expertise and merged the two companies.

    Hasselblad have just released (at no charge) digital lense corrections for legacy Zeiss glass, I'd say that shows commitment.

    FYI in Orlando I shot a few frames with a CFV39 mounted on one of the original test moon cameras..

    Carsten if you are concerned about the future of V system tell all the thousands of friends using V system to keep buying it.

    Nick-T

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    I don't think there are thousands *buying* V system, but there are certainly thousands, if not tens of thousands of people *using* V systems who would like some options. The CFV39 was a great move from Hasselblad, and I hope it is successful, but it isn't square, so it doesn't necessarily have a true aim.

    Personally, I love using my 500C and 2000FC/M and would dearly love to use a square sensor back. If Hasselblad would ever market a large-square-sensor back (read: minimal crop, 10% perhaps) which could be fitted to a 205FCC with full communication without nuking the ISO FCC back communication, that might be the end stop for my MF shopping. As much as I enjoy my Contax 645 AF, I still prefer my ancient Hasselblads, even if they are a bit arcane and quirky. I would miss the 35 and 120 lenses though.

    Anyway, I am not certain that the market for such a piece is all that large, although it might be large enough. Once upon a time it would certainly have gotten a lot of interest, but a lot of years have passed since then.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post

    Personally, I love using my 500C and 2000FC/M and would dearly love to use a square sensor back. If Hasselblad would ever market a large-square-sensor back (read: minimal crop, 10% perhaps) which could be fitted to a 205FCC with full communication without nuking the ISO FCC back communication, that might be the end stop for my MF shopping.
    Here you go:

    Big Shot

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread



    I can also just buy a Hasselblad adapter for my e54LV and crop to 16MP. I was hoping for more resolution, I should have added, as well as an on-board battery and a screen for checking the exposure/histogram. The price also has to be more within normal range. Depending on its relationship to the CFV39, I would hope for the price to be somewhat proportional.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Couple of points.

    Imacon did not take over Hasselblad. Shriro who owned Hasselblad bought Imacon for their digital expertise and merged the two companies.

    Hasselblad have just released (at no charge) digital lense corrections for legacy Zeiss glass, I'd say that shows commitment.

    FYI in Orlando I shot a few frames with a CFV39 mounted on one of the original test moon cameras..

    Carsten if you are concerned about the future of V system tell all the thousands of friends using V system to keep buying it.

    Nick-T
    okay a merger.. tell us who of the two companies became president of the new Hasselblad ? Legacy or Imacon? I am sure many others were replaced as well.. my point was that while Hasselblad seems like the good ole hasselblad it is really quite new.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't think there are thousands *buying* V system, but there are certainly thousands, if not tens of thousands of people *using* V systems who would like some options. The CFV39 was a great move from Hasselblad, and I hope it is successful, but it isn't square, so it doesn't necessarily have a true aim.

    Personally, I love using my 500C and 2000FC/M and would dearly love to use a square sensor back. If Hasselblad would ever market a large-square-sensor back (read: minimal crop, 10% perhaps) which could be fitted to a 205FCC with full communication without nuking the ISO FCC back communication, that might be the end stop for my MF shopping. As much as I enjoy my Contax 645 AF, I still prefer my ancient Hasselblads, even if they are a bit arcane and quirky. I would miss the 35 and 120 lenses though.

    Anyway, I am not certain that the market for such a piece is all that large, although it might be large enough. Once upon a time it would certainly have gotten a lot of interest, but a lot of years have passed since then.

    Carsten, there will never ever be a square sensor to 6x6 from Kodak or Dalsa. So if this is your dream, I think you need to rethink it.

    There is a square mode in the CFV so if you want to shoot square then you can.

    This is as close as it will ever be.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The design of the lenses is only half the story. The other half is what message is sent to users, and when. Do you have a date on when Hasselblad announced the new full format (36x48mm) and a date on when Hasselblad knew that full frame sensors were coming?
    No.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Folks,

    actually this thread repeats the same wishful, hopeful but useless discussions about what would be if Hasselblad had known, published, will know, will publish etc. etc......

    I think this does not move anybody anywhere.

    Sorry if this sounds rude.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Originally Posted by carstenw
    The 28mm and the 35-90mm zoom are HCD lenses (as opposed to HC) and won't cover full frame, i.e. they cannot cover the H4D-60, AFAIK, at least not at the same quality level. However, the difference is minimal, so they might still be acceptable for some uses.

    Personally, I find it to be an acceptable limitation, although one does have to wonder about Hasselblad management's ability to foresee their own future. In short order they have moved from one full-frame definition to another (at least the 28mm lens's focal length is actually equivalent, on a 36x48mm sensor, and not the real focal length) and then back again, and in the short time in between, released two lenses which are not fully compatible with the latter definition. Not so impressive, but again, not so serious, in this case.

    --------------------------

    I don't know how the topic changed to so many other things, while the main concern had started with the 2 HCD lenses.

    I'm not writing something theoretical. I have these 2 lenses, and it hurts me somewhat to learn that while on one hand I can use these (at least) with the new cameras, but there will be limitations. I have spent a lot of money just a few months before there were any rumours about the new DB's and H4D. When I bought the lenses, I don't recall if Hasselblad had any notices regarding usable DB sizes either for near future models.

    Now I wonder also about the performance at the corners, which is an additional worry.

    Therefore in principle, I agree with Carsten regarding the portion of his post pasted above.

    This is despite the fact that I love these 2 lenses, and the fact that there are no better alternatives for these in the Hasselblad range (or in any other system at present). But theoretically, I might not have bought these, if I had knew in advance. That's Carsten's view too.

    BTW, I don't like the camera colors too, but that doesn't keep me from sleeping well at night. For some reason, I think I like black better. It may be an age problem.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Carsten, there will never ever be a square sensor to 6x6 from Kodak or Dalsa. So if this is your dream, I think you need to rethink it.

    There is a square mode in the CFV so if you want to shoot square then you can.
    I understand that at this point in time a 56x56mm sensor would be prohibitively expensive. I do think that a 48x48mm sensor would be interesting, and as Leica has shown with the 30x45mm sensor, and as Phase has shown with the P65+, it is certainly possible to go to one of the sensor manufacturers and ask for a certain dimension.

    The will to do so is something else, of course.

    By the way, I see no need to revise my dream. It may not be reality, but it is still something I would love to have.

    This is as close as it will ever be.
    I take this to mean that 36x48mm is the squarest large sensor Hasselblad will ever use in a back to fit the V camera. Is that an official statement, or your opinion?

    In addition to the V cameras, there are the Rollei 6008 cameras and the Leaf AFi and Sinar/Rolleiflex Hy6. The owners of all these cameras are potential buyers for a large-square-sensor back. I hope that one day one of the remaining back manufacturers make a proper gamble on this market. The CFV/CFV-II were nice, but the crop factor was much too large. The CFV-39 is nice, but a hedged bet, halfway there only. Maybe when the economy recovers...
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s.agar View Post
    I'm not writing something theoretical. I have these 2 lenses, and it hurts me somewhat to learn that while on one hand I can use these (at least) with the new cameras, but there will be limitations. I have spent a lot of money just a few months before there were any rumours about the new DB's and H4D. When I bought the lenses, I don't recall if Hasselblad had any notices regarding usable DB sizes either for near future models.

    Now I wonder also about the performance at the corners, which is an additional worry.

    Therefore in principle, I agree with Carsten regarding the portion of his post pasted above.
    BTW, I don't like the camera colors too, but that doesn't keep me from sleeping well at night. For some reason, I think I like black better. It may be an age problem.
    Seyhun,

    I am very happy to see someone speak out on the same side as me. I know that my presentation has been somewhat confrontational, and that makes it harder to side with me, but I know several photographers who share these views.

    I know the colour scheme isn't crucial, but I still find it fascinating to watch Hasselblad's stubbornness over such a supposedly minor issue. I think from day one people have been expressing the wish for a black camera, but so far, nothing.

    The lens issue is far more serious, of course. I hope that not too many people were caught out by this, like you may have been.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Now that sensor resolution has reached 60MP, it would make more business sense to me to provide optional (on the fly) viewfinder masking to square, and support same in the software – rather than develop a square sensor for a niche. The software support would just be an automated application of a crop to match the squared view of the scene.

    While there are those who would love a true square sensor, you'd not get my money to do it if I were funding the product development. I feel that it would be a mistake from a business point of view.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Now that sensor resolution has reached 60MP, it would make more business sense to me to provide optional (on the fly) viewfinder masking to square, and support same in the software Ė rather than develop a square sensor for a niche. The software support would just be an automated application of a crop to match the squared view of the scene.

    While there are those who would love a true square sensor, you'd not get my money to do it if I were funding the product development. I feel that it would be a mistake from a business point of view.
    The issue is more with the viewfinder crop. A 645 sensor cropped to square is a 4.5x4.5 crop out of a 6x6 viewfinder (please accept my rough rounding to avoid confusing readers who don't know/care about mm differences - it's a big crop regardless).

    Your point stands however that a 6x6 specialty square sensor is not likely to gain much traction in R+D budgets.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    I'm sorry but, for me, I have a very hard time taking suggestions or listening to criticism's from people that complain about the look of the camera. When I see this I just assume that the camera is jewelry to them. If it was lime green or pink or stripped yellow I would be more inclined to go along with it. But, in absolute honesty I have no idea what my H3d's color scheme is. I would have to get it out of my bag to even tell you. I think it is funny beyond belief that anyone would care unless of course it is more about showing the camera than taking pictures. But it is one hell of a heavy necklace if that is what it means to you.

    The color of the camera!!! What next - it doesn't have a color co-ordinated strap.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The issue is more with the viewfinder crop. A 645 sensor cropped to square is a 4.5x4.5 crop out of a 6x6 viewfinder (please accept my rough rounding to avoid confusing readers who don't know/care about mm differences - it's a big crop regardless).

    Your point stands however that a 6x6 specialty square sensor is not likely to gain much traction in R+D budgets.
    Right, Doug. And I was not really referring to the idea of a back produced for the installed base of 6x6 square viewfinder bodies, but looking at it with an eye forward. I will guess that the viewfinders of modern digital MF cameras will likely be mostly rectangular and I was fantasizing about a concept that simply masked the ends of the view for composition purposes. (And therefore I veered a bit off-topic.)

    IMO this would better support R&D cost issues regardless of how large the sensors grow. As sensors become cheaper we may see more of the types of things that RED are working on in terms of sensor size. (Not wanting to get in to optical limits, etc. here.) It's obviously a ways out, but I can't be convinced that all of this will stop at a 645 sensor size.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gdphotography View Post
    I'm sorry but, for me, I have a very hard time taking suggestions or listening to criticism's from people that complain about the look of the camera. When I see this I just assume that the camera is jewelry to them. If it was lime green or pink or stripped yellow I would be more inclined to go along with it. But, in absolute honesty I have no idea what my H3d's color scheme is. I would have to get it out of my bag to even tell you. I think it is funny beyond belief that anyone would care unless of course it is more about showing the camera than taking pictures. But it is one hell of a heavy necklace if that is what it means to you.

    The color of the camera!!! What next - it doesn't have a color co-ordinated strap.
    Carsten, since you are a guy who neither owns nor has any interest in owning an H3D or H4D, I am amused by your hosting a mini-forum about all that is wrong with Hasselblad.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Well, it was another thread where it came up, and the OP didn't really want his thread hijacked, understandably, so I started a new thread. To be honest, I am already fed up with the whole thing. I would wish that one could just post an opinion, clearly marked as such, and not be taken to task over it, but that isn't the case.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Well glad I stayed out of this one but let me add ANY MF system you buy it is exactly like getting married. It cost a lot , it's a lifetime decision ( at least the thought is) it won't do exactly what you ask it to do and it is all about what compromises you are willing to accept.

    Just like marriage you start it today and 5 years later maybe one part of it does not fit the future part of it anymore.

    I have been married 20 years and trust me my wife is not the same girl I married and neither am i and don't expect it to be the same.

    I hate to use this analogy but frankly it is dead on the money but the bottom line is you can't blame anyone it is what evolves from the past.

    Very simple case in point with radio remotes limits around 1/1000 well who would have thought now you can get a 1/1600 leaf shutter which just made those devices obsolete . Until someone has one fast enough you are going to have to use a hard wire sync cable( just as a example something may actually work here but just making a point)
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    To be honest, I am already fed up with the whole thing. I would wish that one could just post an opinion, clearly marked as such, and not be taken to task over it, but that isn't the case.
    The problem here is that the title of your thread on this discussion board suggested that this was to be a discussion

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, it was another thread where it came up, and the OP didn't really want his thread hijacked, understandably, so I started a new thread. To be honest, I am already fed up with the whole thing. I would wish that one could just post an opinion, clearly marked as such, and not be taken to task over it, but that isn't the case.
    I don't know you Carstenw but it sounds like you want to criticize others but receive no criticism yourself. Seems rather one-sided to me.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Gary, I am quite willing to receive critique. It must be well reasoned though, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on differences in opinion.
    Last edited by carstenw; 8th October 2009 at 22:53.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Gary, I am quite willing to receive critique. It must be well reasoned though, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on differences in opinion.
    Well, I can keep it balanced I think. Just a perspective from a long time owner/user of both the Legacy V and the H systems. You can apply it "for or against" your comments at will. Sorry for the long post, but you made a number of points I can offer a personal perspective on ... and intelligent responses may require a longer POV.

    I am in the process of going to the (near FF) H4D/60.

    I am not put off by the minor crop of the HCD lenses on the H4D/60.

    As a H3D-II/39 owner, and previously other 1.1X sensor cameras (H2D/22, H3D/39), and especially the 1.3X crop frame H3D/31 & H3D-II/31 cameras ... the HCD/28 provided me with the wide angle coverage I needed for my work.

    To get that same W/A coverage on those cameras using a Full Frame lens, it probably would have been a 25 or 26mm ... which MOST certainly WOULD have cost substantially more and been larger or slower (if even possible). A true 28mm FF lens on a 1.1X camera is a 31mm field-of-view, and on a 1.3X crop sensor is a 37mm field-of-view which was NOT wide enough for some of the industrial photography I do. I often barely got by with the 28mm.

    RE Camera color:

    I honestly don't care that much. Camera color has nothing to do with what I do. Would I have bought into it if it were black? ... yes. Would I have bought into it if it were grey? ... I did. What does matter to me is that the components cosmetically match ... which they do. Would I have liked it to be all black, yes. But it isn't, and I don't care that much. In 30 years shooting, not one single client has every said anything about the color of my cameras To me, it's a "lite" issue.

    The criteria at the time I bought into the H system was AF. It was the fastest, surest MFD AF out there bar none, and now has been substantially improved compared to anything else out there bar none. That criteria still stands, so I am moving to the H4D.

    RE: Legacy support ...

    Every manual focus, mechanical CF, CFi and CFE Zeiss lens I own (10 of them) work on my H cameras via the CF adapter. This not a gerry-rigged, dumb adapter ... it is a fully integrated, fully auto aperture, auto stop down adapter. The H camera provides focus confirmation, and the Phocus software corrections support the legacy Zeiss lenses. Cameras are just boxes to me, what counts is the huge investment in lenses ... a legacy investment that Hasselblad protected well into the digital age. Try adapting a legacy Mamiya RZ lens to a Mamiya 645 AFD.

    I have opted out of the legacy CFV program. Great solution for V users and nice on-going support for the long discontinued 200 series cameras. But redundant to me, and I no longer wish to support 2 separate MFD systems. I will use the 203FE system as it was intended ... as a film camera ... or sell off the entire kit (TBD).

    My take on the so called "Closed System".

    Don't care about others who use different backs on a H camera. As the benefits of a fully integrated system are revealed, it's clear Hasselblad saw well into the future and bit the bullet while taking some flack in the process. They are big boys. Personally, I hope they continue integrating the components even more because the benefits out weight the negatives IMHO and direct experience. Backwards compatibility has it's limits IMO, and should not be the criteria if it hampers what is really possible going forward.

    Fan Boy?:

    If personal preferences tag me with the "Fan Boy" moniker, I honestly couldn't care less. The fact is, if something else came along that met my criteria substantially better, and I could afford it, I'd drop Hasselblad in a NY heart beat.

    I am watching the S2 carefully, but have determined it is a candidate to totally replace my 35mm DSLR systems (the way I use them) more than the fully modular H kit which I use on a studio view camera, and use with the waist level finder. Sony and Nikon may be history to me in the future (TBD).

    Gripes about the H system:

    Wish they would produce a focal plane shutter body so I can use the H/C lenses like the 100/2.2 in bright available light. But that's a pretty minor occurrence. A focal plane shutter H would also allow possible use of the legacy FE lenses.

    Improve the 50mm H/C lens ... either a new lens or better DAC corrections.

    Allow DAC corrections to migrate with DNG conversions for further work in Lightroom, ACR, or Aperture. This is gripe #1.


    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 9th October 2009 at 03:16.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    @Marc and also the others ....

    very well said and great explanation. I really value your thoughts, findings and opinion, as reading through it I find some of my own experiences and thoughts reflected.

    I must say that there is theory and praxis - some will most time remain in the theoretical area, while others will be faced to move into reality. Both is fine and both must be honored and accepted here. I think everyone needs once to finally decide for any photographic solution and it should be based then hopefully on experience, comfort with the chosen system, perspective for the future and well integrated and also future proven workflow - maybe I forgot something to mention, but these are the main criteria.

    Coming back to Hasselblad and the H system, this system has definitely a big number of "First's" and is thus a very good and mature system. Do I like all? Definitely NO! Would I like different features? Definitely YES!

    But what are the alternatives (and I am still on the theoretical ground here, as I did still not buy into any digital MF system) - the only real alternative in MF is Phase - PERIOD! The S System, as nice as it seems still on marketing and on paper, is no MF equivalent and will never be, maybe enough for many purposes, but I do not let myself fool with those nice marketing messages, it is not MF and never will offer the flexibility of Hasselblad or Phase.

    So which to choose? Difficult question. Still on theory here, although hoping to soon get into reality.

    On the Phase side I like most C1Pro, which provides for a really great workflow which I am used to and which will further improve with next versions. For the camera (even the new one) and the glass it is a choice to make and I think I can live with that. For the backs, they are simple market leading edge, but I would love to see a bit more different lineup and more attractive pricing.

    On the Hasselblad side I cannot become friend with Phocus, especially because it is closed to Hasselblad. Will this go away? I think not. The camera and the lenses I would consider superior to what Phase currently offers, but that is because of the choices and not because if IQ etc. But I could live with either solution. For the backs it is a very interesting and straight forward lineup and clearly moves away from Crop 1.3 and goes FF or at least Crop 1.1 and all of this for a very attractive price.

    So it will come down in the end of the day to a great offer I get for one of these 2 systems. I think this will then make me decide and get married - like Guy explained somewhere else most probably for lifetime

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The criteria at the time I bought into the H system was AF. It was the fastest, surest MFD AF out there bar none, and now has been substantially improved compared to anything else out there bar none. That criteria still stands, so I am moving to the H4D.
    You've used the H4D or are just (fairly) speculating based on the presumption that each new body ups the anti for focus abilities?

    When both the Hassy H4D and Phase DF are shipping it will be interesting to see which real world system has better AF.

    The AFD3 and H3 are very close in most situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    RE: Legacy support ...

    Every manual focus, mechanical CF, CFi and CFE Zeiss lens I own (10 of them) work on my H cameras via the CF adapter. This not a gerry-rigged, dumb adapter ... it is a fully integrated, fully auto aperture, auto stop down adapter. The H camera provides focus confirmation, and the Phocus software corrections support the legacy Zeiss lenses. Cameras are just boxes to me, what counts is the huge investment in lenses ... a legacy investment that Hasselblad protected well into the digital age. Try adapting a legacy Mamiya RZ lens to a Mamiya 645 AFD.
    The RZ > 645 AF is apt analogy. However, the issue here is not that Mamiya/Phase does not decide to offer "support" for these lenses but a fundamental issue of technology; the RZ requires bellow focusing which is not practical on a 645 sized body. However, you can use the SAME digital back on both an RZ Pro IID and a Mamiya or Phase One 645 body which means you have native access not just to those lenses (as with V lenses on an H body) but to the body itself.

    However, EVERY Mamiya 645 lens from 1975 (the first one produced) to the currently produced D series lenses are compatible and newer lenses like the 75-150mm D and 28mm work even on older bodies like the AFD1 (HCD lenses cannot be used on older bodies such as the H1/H2). In addition every one of your CF, CFi, CFE lenses is compatible, as well as the FE lenses that you hunger to use with digital. As a bonus there are adapters for Pentacon 6 glass. It is very true, and should be noted, that the H can use the CF/CFi/CFE with aperture stop down while the Mamiya/Phase require manual stop down of the lens.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    The reality is all these system no matter how good they truly area, there will always be in some area a place you have to make a choice and decide if you can live with that compromise. Let's just use Focal Plane and leaf shutters for instance. People in the past had to make that big choice do you go one way or the other and maybe one of our first big decisions was go Hassy for leaf or go Phase for Focal plane. Now maybe 2 years ago or a year you decided to go Hassy. Well now Phase finally has leaf shutters but that did not make your decision less valid 2 years ago either. Things change and are more fluid today . Just look at Canon and Nikon before you blink your eyes something new is out but your decision at the time was a sound one , now you face another decision. ZYou just can't go back and point fingers at Hassy in this example for building a new system that always has to be retroactive to the past. Although Hassy is famous for this but in this case it really in my mind at least is not a big issue you buy a 60 mpx back and have to crop very slightly for a lens BIG DEAL. Trust me I take my 28mm to a P65+ back i may see all the way out there but is it truly usable . No it basically is not without getting into C1 and correcting those corners and even than you still may have to crop to a 30mm lens. Myself i see this as no big deal. New technology comes and companies need to improve and they always can't look back and say we HAVE TO make that lens work, well if they did that than they may not improve either. It's clear to me Hassy made the best sound choice to upgrade there system but still keep there existing lenses from being completely obsolete as well. Seriously do you think they truly like dealing with this issue and if it was a even worse situation say you had to crop to 35mm they would NEVER hear the end of it.

    In the end it's about compromise and doing the best you can do for your customers . From my seat I think Hassy was completely responsible given the technology to there customers. I'm like Marc show me something better and i will switch in a NY heartbeat as well and most of us will but Hassy makes a great system and i do respect that even though I own a Phase system and happy with that decision. End of the day we are buying the best solution for you as the photographer and it's not always a pretty one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Well said.
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    @Marc and also the others ....



    But what are the alternatives (and I am still on the theoretical ground here, as I did still not buy into any digital MF system) - the only real alternative in MF is Phase - PERIOD! The S System, as nice as it seems still on marketing and on paper, is no MF equivalent and will never be, maybe enough for many purposes, but I do not let myself fool with those nice marketing messages, it is not MF and never will offer the flexibility of Hasselblad or Phase.

    peter, I have to question your absolute conviction that the S2 is not a MF equivalent..you must be talking about the shape of the body or non interchangeable backs to make this statement. Surely,
    if a S2 image at 20x30 is everybit as good as {you fill in the back} then I would assume you would agree that the S2 is of MF quality. Why do you think or assume Leica is trying to fool you?..
    after reading your post it seems you don't really have a choice and have boxed yourself into a phase corner..which is great because they make very good equipment. But is not phase locked into the same inflexibility with c1 that you say hasselblad has with phocus?
    Sorry but I always have to question those who are so sure of something that they end any statement with "PERIOD!".

  42. #42
    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    When both the Hassy H4D and Phase DF are shipping it will be interesting to see which real world system has better AF.
    I absolutely agree

    However, EVERY Mamiya 645 lens from 1975 (the first one produced) to the currently produced D series lenses are compatible and newer lenses like the 75-150mm D and 28mm work even on older bodies like the AFD1 (HCD lenses cannot be used on older bodies such as the H1/H2). In addition every one of your CF, CFi, CFE lenses is compatible, as well as the FE lenses that you hunger to use with digital. As a bonus there are adapters for Pentacon 6 glass. It is very true, and should be noted, that the H can use the CF/CFi/CFE with aperture stop down while the Mamiya/Phase require manual stop down of the lens.
    With the use of the Hasselblad CF adapter, photographers have the use of 27 Zeiss lenses (30mm to 500mm) and 1 Schneider 140-280mm lens on any H camera dating back to 1957. CB lenses are included in the list of CF/CFi/CFE. Not bad for backwards compatibility.

    As Marc had indicated earlier in this thread "it is a fully integrated, fully auto aperture, auto stop down adapter. The H camera provides focus confirmation, and the Phocus software corrections support the legacy Zeiss lenses." The list of V lenses will expand with the next of Phocus, I think may Hasselblad V users will be very happy.

    You can also store the lenses that you own in the "My Lens List" so instead of seeing all lens options, the photographer would only see the lenses he/she uses most frequently.

    Paul Claesson
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Claesson Hasselblad View Post
    You can also store the lenses that you own in the "My Lens List" so instead of seeing all lens options, the photographer would only see the lenses he/she uses most frequently.
    Nice!

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    FWIW,

    The 'H' history of Hasselblad has been and still is abysmal, especially for a 'highest of high end companies'.

    If you own an H1 or H2 and use a Phase One or Leaf back then these HCD lenses don't work with your camera, they only work with HD cameras.

    So right away when hasselblad went closed system, they didn't care about existing users.

    Their files until very recently didn't work in industry standard RAW developing software, their own software was at this time very poor, and very very poor by Hasselblads own much hyped standards, especially when you see what Leaf and Phase One have out there. It still is under developed and a poor alternative to Adobe and Apple.

    Now we see Hasselblad bring out the H4D and owners of the above mentioned lenses now feel like original H1 and H2 users did.

    If a neutral person where to look in on this he or she would not blame anyone to jump ship, abandon Hasselblad and their 'questionable' forward planning and management and move to a system supplier who offers the following:

    Open platform to use digital backs i.e. not closed system.

    Offer RAW files that work in ALL industry standard dev. software AND offer a high level alternative.. on both both MAC and PC platforms.

    Offer and upgrade path that allows you to safely keep your equipment that you have invested in and just upgrade your back and or body.

    Offer the ability to still shoot film.. rare I know but when a back fails a long way from home, film is better than nothing.

    In short Rollei and Mamiya have moved the ball forward for medium format shooters, all their lenses work full frame, all their bodies take a range of backs and film (maybe not the new DF anyone). And all the digital files work in Lightroom or Aperture etc...

    I would allege that Mr. Poulsen should have serious question marks over his direction, it's just my opinion and I mean it in a neutral way looking, at the open facts. How many customers has he lost just by going closed system, let alone having a questionable 'forward management' policy...?

    A good example of 'forward management' was Leica, how when their M8 came out they made it so that it was easy for M series lens users to go forward, and I quote:
    'All Leica M lenses of 21–90 mm focal
    length produced since the year 1954 can be used, even if lacking the 6-bit coding. Virtually all lenses can be retrofitted
    with 6-bit coding. 6-bit functions Lens-dependent reduction of edge shadowing originating in the system. Identification
    of the lens information within the image file to facilitate digital archiving. Adjustment of the flash reflector when
    using motor zoom flash devices. Auto slow sync. function in aperture priority mode. Compensation of color shifts
    through the use of UV/IR filters.'


    So Paul, it's not a dig at Hassy, it's questions raised, in fairness because of not one but several management blunders that have lost hasselblad customers and therefore market share.

    Your 'agressive response' is understandable, you love your job and the company you work for, however in reality your response shows signs of a lack of customer understanding and a lack of co operation... not uncommon amongst USA hassy reps recently.
    Last edited by dogstarnyc; 9th October 2009 at 10:24.

  45. #45
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Marc, your post is very well written and balanced, and makes a number of good points, and importantly, you write from the perspective of an owner. I have very little say in reply, just a couple of minor points:

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    (...) the HCD/28 provided me with the wide angle coverage I needed for my work.

    To get that same W/A coverage on those cameras using a Full Frame lens, it probably would have been a 25 or 26mm ... which MOST certainly WOULD have cost substantially more and been larger or slower (if even possible). A true 28mm FF lens on a 1.1X camera is a 31mm field-of-view, and on a 1.3X crop sensor is a 37mm field-of-view which was NOT wide enough for some of the industrial photography I do. I often barely got by with the 28mm.
    This is a minor point, but the HCD28 *is* a ~24mm lens. It just doesn't have the coverage for full frame, but it only misses by 5%, according to David Grover. I cannot imagine that getting that last 5% covered would have made such a huge difference. The "new full frame (36x48)" label used by Hasselblad for one or two intermediate years was presumably a way of being able to call the HCD28 a "full frame 28mm lens" rather than a "24mm lens which doesn't cover full frame"...

    RE Camera color: I honestly don't care that much. Camera color has nothing to do with what I do. Would I have bought into it if it were black? ... yes. Would I have bought into it if it were grey? ... I did. What does matter to me is that the components cosmetically match ... which they do. (...) To me, it's a "lite" issue.
    I freely admit that the colour is a "lite" issue, and I have written as much. The thing is, I have never heard a single owner or non-owner come out in favour of that colour, so what exactly makes Hasselblad release camera after camera looking like that? I just don't get it. Minor, but baffling nonetheless. Your cosmetic matching comment betrays that you do care about such things, as I am sure you are aware. Like I said earlier, there will always be that little voice in the head until the day the camera is black. When you posted your Photoshopped black H, I was surprised how handsome the camera was in black.

    I have opted out of the legacy CFV program. Great solution for V users and nice on-going support for the long discontinued 200 series cameras. But redundant to me, and I no longer wish to support 2 separate MFD systems. I will use the 203FE system as it was intended ... as a film camera ... or sell off the entire kit (TBD).
    You are very right about this, today. But there was a time when the 203FE, by some called the best camera ever made, was a top-of-the-line camera, and their owners had invested huge amounts of money in those systems, but overnight the direction changed, and they were given no path forward. A strategy developed over time, and the H was improved to the point that it could take over, but just like with the H2+Phase situation, it was one of those situations where one day you were golden, and the next day you had no way forward. This is what I mean with how Hasselblad has made decisions on several occasions. It gives me pause.

    If personal preferences tag me with the "Fan Boy" moniker, I honestly couldn't care less.
    The "fan boy" moniker in a forum like this is just a pointless label. It serves only one purpose: to insult. I would be happier if I never saw anyone use it again.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    So let me summarise- and please let me know if I missed anything

    Hasselblad has ugly coloured cameras - black is much better -buy Phamiya
    Hasselblad doesnt have a full frame 28 wide - buy Phamiya
    Hasselblad has a closed system - buy Phamiya

    oh and yes - Hasselblad is a bad naughty nasty company who treats its customers badly - buy Phamiya

    there are no other back makers - Sinar is dead - buy Phamiya

    anything else I missed??


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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Do you really think Carsten is biased towards Phamiya? I hadn't noticed that.
    Thanks for your informative message.

    Seyhun
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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    peter, I have to question your absolute conviction that the S2 is not a MF equivalent..you must be talking about the shape of the body or non interchangeable backs to make this statement. Surely,
    if a S2 image at 20x30 is everybit as good as {you fill in the back} then I would assume you would agree that the S2 is of MF quality. Why do you think or assume Leica is trying to fool you?..
    after reading your post it seems you don't really have a choice and have boxed yourself into a phase corner..which is great because they make very good equipment. But is not phase locked into the same inflexibility with c1 that you say hasselblad has with phocus?
    Sorry but I always have to question those who are so sure of something that they end any statement with "PERIOD!".
    Try to make 80"x100" prints from a S2 and you will see the difference compared to a 50 or 60MP back - I am VERY convinced - PERIOD!

    This is why I do not count the S System a MF system.

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Peter, your statement is pure fiction. None of us have seen such a comparison. Why don't you wait a few extra days until the S2 is out to make such statements? It just discredits you.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The Hasselblad H Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Try to make 80"x100" prints from a S2 and you will see the difference compared to a 50 or 60MP back - I am VERY convinced - PERIOD!

    This is why I do not count the S System a MF system.
    That has to be the strangest definition of a MF system I've ever heard!

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