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Thread: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

  1. #51
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    any comments?
    yes. that's simply untrue.
    see my last post.

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Michael was way too kind to Leica when he said that - 2 years ago the high-end LCDs like those sported by the Nikon D3 series were already out and about, let alone specified (D3, announced in August 2007). The S2's LCD, while hopefully good enough, has never been state-of-the-art, not even in the planning stage... shame, for such an high-end product (and for that price). However, if you are into that kind of things, or if you plan to bring the S2 into heavy fights or that kind of action, you can get the sapphire cover for your LCD. The price? You could buy a good DSLR and a lens or two for the same amount of cash, but hey, what are you going to do...
    The S2's screen is much better than the Canon 1Ds mkIII, but not quite as nice as the D3x (all three cameras use 3" LCDs and are current models, so it's the closest comparison). It is much, much nicer than H3DII, P1, or Leaf screens. If you are okay with the resolution and size of an iPhone, you will like the S2's LCD. They are both 360x480 pixels and 3".

    I'm not sure why Michael would have written what he did, but my experience differed from his. Outside, the screen wasn't as bright as I would have liked, but it was okay in bright sun. To date, the most visible LCD in bright daylight is still the Leica DMR. Small, yes, but better than anything else in FL sun.

    David
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???


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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Well then Phase give us a GOOD histogram and not the one right now, which again compared to Canon, Nikon and even Sony is pretty bad.

    @ David let me think. Oh the 1DsMk3 is now two years old. Amazingly Leica managed to produce a better LCD. (Phase look out) On the other hand they managed to produce something worse than a nearly one year old D3x LCD. Sorry but for 20k plus I except more.

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Hi Jim,

    Well maybe it is just coincidence, but the Brightness / Contrast controls have NO bearing whatsoever on the histogram... Period. ;-)

    Perhaps he was experimenting more with ACR which would most likely render an odd histogram.

    David

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The S2's screen is much better than the Canon 1Ds mkIII, but not quite as nice as the D3x (all three cameras use 3" LCDs and are current models, so it's the closest comparison). It is much, much nicer than H3DII, P1, or Leaf screens. If you are okay with the resolution and size of an iPhone, you will like the S2's LCD. They are both 360x480 pixels and 3".

    I'm not sure why Michael would have written what he did, but my experience differed from his. Outside, the screen wasn't as bright as I would have liked, but it was okay in bright sun. To date, the most visible LCD in bright daylight is still the Leica DMR. Small, yes, but better than anything else in FL sun.

    David
    David, I certainly don't doubt your experience nor (as I wrote in my previous message) the adequacy of the S2 screen. However, the point was wether it was "state-of-the-art" when it was planned, which it certainly was not: much better screens were out there two years ago, which means they were specified at least 4 years ago. Leica choose not to use one, which is fine, and choose to offer the sapphire upgrade as a (very) expensive extra, which is fine - a manufacturer can do what they want, of course; however, the good part of this is that we the customers can then vote with our wallets on wether a manufacturer did the right choice for us or not
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    wrong reading of the LuLa article and the issue. If you change contrast, saturation or any other image setting on DSLRs the adjustments (of the image, not the LCD) are reflected in the histogram of the JPEG - and this is what DSLRs display. The same applies to motif programs of DSLRs of course. DSLRs do not display the actual RAW file but the processed JPEGs.
    I don't know about Hasselblad but Phase backs do not display the histogram of the actual RAW file (otherwise 1 stop underexposure would shift the histogram half way to the left on the histogram scale). But - this is my reading - they display a (default-) icc profile corrected RAW histogram (and/or maybe any other kind of default adjustment to the RAW file).
    I.e.: if you set Capture One to the default input color space and the film curve "linear response" the histogram on the DBs LCD and in C1 match. So in practice it works like it should.
    Last edited by thomas; 14th October 2009 at 01:45.

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    If you are okay with the resolution and size of an iPhone, you will like the S2's LCD. They are both 360x480 pixels and 3".
    David
    The iPhone's screen is 3" X 2" (3.5" diagonal) I doubt the S2's screen is as big.

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    The iPhone's screen is 3" X 2" (3.5" diagonal) I doubt the S2's screen is as big.
    Okay, so the S2's screen offers a higher DPI res than the iPhone. If they have the same number of pixels and the S2 LCD is slightly smaller (3" vs. 3.2") it should look sharper.

    Thanks for pointing this out.

    David
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    David, I certainly don't doubt your experience nor (as I wrote in my previous message) the adequacy of the S2 screen. However, the point was wether it was "state-of-the-art" when it was planned, which it certainly was not: much better screens were out there two years ago, which means they were specified at least 4 years ago. Leica choose not to use one, which is fine, and choose to offer the sapphire upgrade as a (very) expensive extra, which is fine - a manufacturer can do what they want, of course; however, the good part of this is that we the customers can then vote with our wallets on wether a manufacturer did the right choice for us or not
    Vieri,

    I'm confused. If the S2 has a superior LCD to all medium format systems (many of which carry higher price tags) and is better than Canon's top-of-the-line 1Ds, how do you reach the conclusion that Leica somehow skimped on the technology? Yes, the D3x screen is slightly better, but Nikon also purchases in much higher volume. I'd say that given their relatively low volume, Leica has probably spec'd the best screen they could.

    With regards to the Platinum Package with Sapphire glass, this is designed primarily for rental studios. The sapphire glass screen won't get scuffed, even if rented 100 times in a year. The camera will look "newer" and hold its rental value better. And the Platinum Package includes a free shutter replacement. So, after 2 years when the rental S2 has 200,000 exposures on it, the studio can send it in and get a brand new shutter, thus significantly extending the life of the camera. For most individual owners this package isn't necessary, but for the rental houses, it should give them a better ROI over the long term.

    David
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    No Leica critique goes unanswered, and in real time: it has defenders in every time zone, so when Europeans are asleep, Americans are there, when Americans are asleep ...

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Stephen, what is your angle? No answered Leica critique goes uncommented by you.
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    ADMIN NOTE: Let's keep it friendly guys...

    Brand loyalism or fanboyism as seen from my own perspective offered FWIW: A consumer being in love with their choice of system and lauding it is one thing. A dealer that sells said product also has something to gain continually pushing their product as superior to a competitors is perhaps something else...

    However, BOTH are likely going to be measured as "suspect" opinions by any educated consumer and as such are likely to incur pointed questions about actual performance and specifications with associated debate. But that debate can remain cordial... IMO brand loyalism is never going to go away and a main purpose these discussion forums can serve is to help consumers make appropriate purchasing decisions based on their needs by sifting though a collection of comments to make their ultimate decision.

    As such, I feel it is equally beneficial to readers to have access to comments containing measures of both skepticism and loyalism together in the same discussion -- a cross-examination of stated facts if you prefer that terminology

    Carry on,
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Vieri,

    I'm confused. If the S2 has a superior LCD to all medium format systems (many of which carry higher price tags) and is better than Canon's top-of-the-line 1Ds, how do you reach the conclusion that Leica somehow skimped on the technology? Yes, the D3x screen is slightly better, but Nikon also purchases in much higher volume. I'd say that given their relatively low volume, Leica has probably spec'd the best screen they could.
    David, nothing to be confused about, nor need to be defensive - my original comment was referring to a quote of Michael from Luminous Landscapes, mentioning that "Michael states on LuLa in his S2 first impressions article: The camera's large LCD is good, but not great. Apparently it was specified a couple of years ago and was state-of-the-art then." I pointed out a factual, historical truth: the LCD of the S2 was not state of the art two years ago. Nothing more, and I am sure you agree with that: the difference between "state of the art" and "specified as best as they could given their relative low volume" is, IMHO, very clear.

    With regards to the Platinum Package with Sapphire glass, this is designed primarily for rental studios. The sapphire glass screen won't get scuffed, even if rented 100 times in a year. The camera will look "newer" and hold its rental value better. And the Platinum Package includes a free shutter replacement. So, after 2 years when the rental S2 has 200,000 exposures on it, the studio can send it in and get a brand new shutter, thus significantly extending the life of the camera. For most individual owners this package isn't necessary, but for the rental houses, it should give them a better ROI over the long term.

    David
    Very true, I didn't think about the lease & rental crowd. However, IMHO a camera body that costs what the S2 cost could offer the sapphire glass as a standard anyway. More in general, and this applies to all brands more or less, I really think that this widespread policy of selling a product for thousands of $ and then extorting a few bucks more for something that might (if not downright should) have come with the original product is not a really great one and doesn't help to ingratiate customers and make them happy. And, worst of all, is definitely bad & poor style-wise, it makes them look really small, Scrooge-y, sell-your-mama-for-a-buck like...

    Some historical examples, the firsts out of my head:

    - Nikon selling the D series camera for 5.000 US and wanting 100 bucks more for Nikon Capture;
    - Hasselblad selling the Flextight X5 for more than 10 K euro and including ridiculous single-frame adapters, forcing you to buy the 6x35 mm or the 3x120 mm adapter for a bit more than a hundred euros each;
    - Phase not including C1 Pro with a 15 K euro order for a camera & a back;
    - Leica & the sapphire glass, both on the M9 & the S2;

    and I am sure there are more. Now that it comes to mind, we could start a thread about the way all the major companies do business when it comes to this...
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Okay, so the S2's screen offers a higher DPI res than the iPhone. If they have the same number of pixels and the S2 LCD is slightly smaller (3" vs. 3.2") it should look sharper.

    Thanks for pointing this out.

    David

    It'll only look sharper if the preview generated on it is good...the iPhone BTW is 3.5" not 3.2".

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    This is off-topic, but actually the small versions of photos generated for the iPhone are not that great. I wrote an AppleScript some time ago to help me generate the thumbnails for my webpages (pre-Lightroom days), and at some point during Tiger, the image tool built into Mac OS X went significantly softer, and never seems to have recovered during Leopard or Snow Leopard. I don't know what the problem is, but since Lightroom handles this easily now I don't care so much any more.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Some historical examples, the firsts out of my head:

    - Nikon selling the D series camera for 5.000 US and wanting 100 bucks more for Nikon Capture;
    - Hasselblad selling the Flextight X5 for more than 10 K euro and including ridiculous single-frame adapters, forcing you to buy the 6x35 mm or the 3x120 mm adapter for a bit more than a hundred euros each;
    - Phase not including C1 Pro with a 15 K euro order for a camera & a back;
    - Leica & the sapphire glass, both on the M9 & the S2;
    I am not touching the rest of your examples, including the S2, but the sapphire screen is actually a significant fraction of the cost of an M9, so I wouldn't group that with the rest.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    "Michael states on LuLa in his S2 first impressions article:

    I'm sitting here going - "What the hell is Lula?" I've never heard of it, so I google and I come up with what appears to be the Lula community:

    http://www.lulamag.com/


    Then after some thought, an epiphany appeared and I called off my search...


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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I'm sitting here going - "What the hell is Lula?"
    what is CI? Corporate Identity...
    "Michael"... "LuLa" .... ... Luminous Landscape

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    what is CI? Corporate Identity...
    "Michael"... "LuLa" .... ... Luminous Landscape
    Yes. Like I said, eventually a light bulb went on. But Lula just sounded like something...and indeed it was.


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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am not touching the rest of your examples, including the S2, but the sapphire screen is actually a significant fraction of the cost of an M9, so I wouldn't group that with the rest.
    Granted, right - Leica could use something like the D3 glass though, not Sapphire but not scratchable nevertheless: there was a video on YouTube showing some crazy dude trying to mess with it with all sort of scratching devices to no avail

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    what is CI? Corporate Identity...
    "Michael"... "LuLa" .... ... Luminous Landscape
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yes. Like I said, eventually a light bulb went on. But Lula just sounded like something...and indeed it was.

    Steve Hendrix
    sorry about that guys... I just quoted a quote of a quote, and I preferred to leave the quote untouched
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yes. Like I said, eventually a light bulb went on. But Lula just sounded like something...and indeed it was.
    ah, okay... I got it now

  23. #73
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yes. Like I said, eventually a light bulb went on. But Lula just sounded like something...and indeed it was.


    Steve Hendrix
    Was it a Sapphire light bulb or just a plain one


    David

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I'm sitting here going - "What the hell is Lula?" I've never heard of it, so I google and I come up with what appears to be the Lula community:

    http://www.lulamag.com/


    Then after some thought, an epiphany appeared and I called off my search...


    Steve Hendrix
    So it's only LL after all and here I am salivating thinking it was one of Ketch's models!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    So it's only LL after all and here I am salivating thinking it was one of Ketch's models!
    Ha ha.. don't worry Dave, I'll be receiving my P30+ system tomorrow, my girls are already waiting..

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Looking forward to you getting your P30+. Dave from CI is shipping overnight to me a new P40+ for me to test out on my way up to the workshop. Starting to get a little head start on the group to get to know this back a little better and for Jack and I to run it through it's paces .

    Starting to feel a big tug on my wallet here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Looking forward to you getting your P30+. Dave from CI is shipping overnight to me a new P40+ for me to test out on my way up to the workshop. Starting to get a little head start on the group to get to know this back a little better and for Jack and I to run it through it's paces .

    Starting to feel a big tug on my wallet here.
    He he, that is how it starts Guy..but from reading here I guess for you has started long time ago , well keep us informed on your guys finds vs. the P30+ and if it is a big jump worth to upgrade to, rather then keeping the P30+ till my planned upgrade to the P65+.


    BTW, next time try to do a workshop in Vegas, would you? I'll take care of the girls for the shoots as well as the locations.

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Dave from CI is shipping overnight to me a new P40+ for me to test out on my way up to the workshop. Starting to get a little head start on the group to get to know this back a little better and for Jack and I to run it through it's paces .

    Starting to feel a big tug on my wallet here.
    This morning I was considering starting a thread stating that we all knew you would be coming to Oregon as the owner of a P30+ but pondering (perhaps even a poll) which back you would own upon leaving Oregon!!!

    Remember, I correctly made a prediction about your changing gear in Carmel but I was trying to refain from being a smart a$$ this morning - all I needed was this little push!

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    am i the only one that won't have a phase back in oregon?

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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Your on bud.

    I just smell trouble with that one.

    I should point out this is really how you should buy although Ketch you were in a little hurry to get a back and you did fine by it. But normally not under a deadline is get to try these things out . When i first got into MF i had 3 backs on a workshop in Puerto Rico and I got to try them out and make a decision as to what fit me the best and so did the other attendees. In the end out of 7 people on that small workshop 4 of us bought Phase and there system. I think that says a lot about getting these things in your hands regardless of name brand and try them see what works and see what does not and even than for me choosing between the P25+ and P30+ i really racked my brain out on that decision so first I went with the P25+ and after a year i decided to switch to the P30+. Now it could be said i made a mistake in the beginning and maybe I did but I don't think I did i loved the P25+ back and it served me very very well but in the end I needed that extra stop of ISO. So than went to the P30+ which i have today and absolutely love but again along comes a P40+with some extra benefits which are very nice . This one has a faster shooting speed which is attracting me and what it really comes down to as a generalist that does many things I look for the most versatile back and someone that specializes in a area may not have to worry about speed and such.

    So again what is good for me may not be as good for someone else. The good news in MF is any back you pick it is never a real mistake because they all simply produce amazing images. Some just go about it differently and obviously some brands may suite you better as a shooter than others.

    I truly think there is a lesson learned here and that is try these things out if you can and get to know the systems for your benefit, end of day it is your money and your career and?or passion on the line.

    Ketch not directed at you obviously we all knew you where in a hurry and in the end you made a very good decision and a lot of people around here know that system very well. Most of us are very happy with it but for other buyers with the time on there hands get a chance to try these out and make smart buy decisions. And from someone that has gone down that path that is my best advice.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #81
    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    He he, I know you mean well Guy, and I also know that what I did, is not as good as doing it with time and trying stuff out, but I'm known to rush i to things from time to time, fortunately my decisions have always served me well, and I think that this time will be no exception Or so I hope

  32. #82
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    am i the only one that won't have a phase back in oregon?
    Got you covered John. Should be P30+,P45+,P40+and P65+ there to try. We have the whole line there. I'm giving up the P40+ as soon as the workshop starts for the attendees reason Dave sent it ahead to me is give it a run. Last workshop I never had the chance to try it so this time I get it just a couple days ahead of everyone.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #83
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    He he, I know you mean well Guy, and I also know that what I did, is not as good as doing it with time and trying stuff out, but I'm known to rush i to things from time to time, fortunately my decisions have always served me well, and I think that this time will be no exception Or so I hope
    I know and did not want to make a example of you but in normal cases what i described is just a great route to take. Being a owner of the P30+ i can assure you of a sound decision. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #84
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Guy - Now that I think about it, I left Carmel with a bunch of your gear and some of Jack's in my bag! Guilty as charged.

  35. #85
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Not surprised. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  36. #86
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    well...I'll just have to show off my CFV39, the maverick of the bunch

  37. #87
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Looking forward to it. Need to talk Woody into bringing his H39
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  38. #88
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    well...I'll just have to show off my CFV39, the maverick of the bunch
    I am very interested in seeing it because I was seriously looking at that one. Can't wait.

  39. #89
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    Re: F%$#%$! I just tried out the Leaf Aptus II 6 CRAZY!! So confused???

    all you modern gearheads will have to take a step back in time; manual focus, manual shutter and aperture via rings, a light meter and that cute blad body...plus some whammy glass

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