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Thread: New LS Lenses

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    New LS Lenses

    There is some discussion going on wheather the new leaf shutter lenses that have been announced long time ago - and apparently finally hit the market - are prepared to work with the AfdIII. Anybody has some details?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    The will work with the new DF body only. I think there is a upgrade path for current AFDIII users that bought a system . Not sure on the exact timing of your purchase but we tend to think the price is 1500.00 still waiting final word on all of this.
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Hm, they have been telling us over and over that there will be ls lenses for the AfdIII.
    Now they want us to spend another 1500$ for a new camera???

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Well I am upgrading there are some nice evolutionary changes that i am after with shutter lag, release, faster AF and more accurate and a few other goodies. For me it works but obviously for some it may not.
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    I found this:

    Cologne, Germany September 17, 2008 In response to requests from Mamiya owners, a new leaf shutter lens for the 645 AFD III will be introduced at Photokina 2008.


    from:
    http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-pr...45afd-iii.html

    and this:

    Phase One is also demonstrating a new 80 mm leafshutter lens, vertical grip, and additional accessories for the Phase One 645 camera system, that will be available Q109.

    from:
    http://www.photographyblog.com/news/...se_one_lenses/

  7. #7
    bdeshazer
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Gotta agree, if this turns out to be true I'll be a little po'd. While I don't mind paying to upgrade my lenses, being forced to upgrade the body at the additional cost when I was told the original Phamiya would be compatible is frustrating.

    I called Capture Integration a couple weeks ago to ask about this and surprise, surprise I haven't heard back. Judging from the CI love shown on this forum I must be the only person these jokers never call back or return e-mails to although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

    Guy, I've been following that thread very closely and the verbiage ("The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters..." and "the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras") seemed to imply that they would only work on the new body, but like wolf65 I had been told that the L/S lenses would work on the original Phamiya. Hence my reason for calling CI for a definitive answer.

    Brent
    Last edited by bdeshazer; 11th October 2009 at 14:14.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdeshazer View Post
    ... Judging from the CI love shown on this forum I must be the only person these jokers never call back or return e-mails to although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

    Doug, I've been following that thread very closely and the verbiage ("The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters..." and "the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras") seemed to imply that they would only work on the new body, but like wolf65 I had been told that the L/S lenses would work on the original Phamiya. Hence my reason for calling CI for a definitive answer.

    Brent
    Brent, while I would also be interested in an answer re: compatibility of the old camera with the new lenses, I think that - if at all - they might be compatible using the focal plane shutter only; you cannot expect that the new shutter in the new lenses would work on a camera not designed for it, unless a FW upgrade will be able to take care of it.

    On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional; more, asking one of them directly for an answers three lines after having insulted them is not probably really conducive to getting the answer you want/need. Just MHO of course
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional
    I agree. But promising something that is not going to happen isn't professional neither. This is puffery on the black market.
    We still wait for a statement - but the silence is suspicious.

    edit: I am referring to Phase, not to the dealers who likely just belived what they were told from Phase.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I agree. But promising something that is not going to happen isn't professional neither. This is puffery on the black market.
    We still wait for a statement - but the silence is suspicious.

    edit: I am referring to Phase, not to the dealers who likely just belived what they were told from Phase.
    Indeed as you said, even assuming that Phase will not deliver on the compatibility that Mamiya (not Phase, btw) promised between the new LS lenses and the old AFD III body, the dealers certainly have nothing to be blamed about.

    My feeling is that the new lenses will be compatible for sure when using the focal plane shutter (I don't see why they shouldn't be), while I am not sure Phase will be able (or willing) to provide a FW upgrade for the use of the LS on older bodies. In both cases, calling a reputable dealer names on a public forum for something that is not his fault in the first place is, IMHO, uncalled for.
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  11. #11
    bdeshazer
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Brent, while I would also be interested in an answer re: compatibility of the old camera with the new lenses, I think that - if at all - they might be compatible using the focal plane shutter only; you cannot expect that the new shutter in the new lenses would work on a camera not designed for it, unless a FW upgrade will be able to take care of it.
    Per Wolf's links, I was led to believe that these lenses would indeed work with the Phamiya body.

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional; more, asking one of them directly for an answers three lines after having insulted them is not probably really conducive to getting the answer you want/need. Just MHO of course
    Vieri, as the ultimate "nice guy" I would normally totally agree with you. However, a year of e-mails not responded to or only partially responded to and unreturned phone calls have me somewhat frustrated. It's reare for me to let negative emotion spill onto a public forum but I am human and occasionally slip.

    The reference to "Doug" you quoted in your message was actually a typo on my part as my intention was to respond to Guy's reply in this thread. I caught this and edited my message but you evidently replied to my message as I was simultaneously editing it to fix that typo, I apologize for the confusion.

    Brent

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdeshazer View Post
    Per Wolf's links, I was led to believe that these lenses would indeed work with the Phamiya body.

    Vieri, as the ultimate "nice guy" I would normally totally agree with you. However, a year of e-mails not responded to or only partially responded to and unreturned phone calls have me somewhat frustrated. It's reare for me to let negative emotion spill onto a public forum but I am human and occasionally slip.

    The reference to "Doug" you quoted in your message was actually a typo on my part as my intention was to respond to Guy's reply in this thread. I caught this and edited my message but you evidently replied to my message as I was simultaneously editing it to fix that typo, I apologize for the confusion.

    Brent
    Brent, your frustration is understood of course, we are all human after all. I don't know how your communication with CI developed, so I will not go into that; I am surprised to hear that, after seeing on the forum how promptly they are generally responsive, as I am sure it is in their best interest to keep customers happy. I hope they will get back to you with all the info you need soon (maybe a private or even a public apology on the forum here would help mending the public name-calling, just a suggestion of course )
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    ...
    again agreed. Still... they echoed the promise. So at least - justified or not - they are sitting in the same boat.
    Still no reason to blame people in a public forum but it's somehow understandable because it's mostly the custumer who get's the kick in the arse (in the form of additional investment).
    It's still true especially in this market: don't trust annoncements. Only trust things you have tested personally. For AFD3 users the LS lenses obviously are vaporware.

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Indeed as you said, even assuming that Phase will not deliver on the compatibility that Mamiya (not Phase, btw) promised between the new LS lenses and the old AFD III body, the dealers certainly have nothing to be blamed about.
    This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

    September 2008:

    Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

    The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...hutter-lenses/

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Well first we really can't blame any dealer on those announcement from Phase that is what they are going by as well. Honestly I think it was a big money issue with Mamiya and reason we did not see anything for a long time there and than finally Phase invested in them and found a new partner Schneider to produce the LS glass. Lot's of weird things happen in MF but yes i remember those announcements as well and unfortunately the dealers get the brunt of all that. Which regardless of who they are they are all getting this same story line. Frankly I don't think they have the answer because Phase has not addressed it with the AFDIII and not sure technically they can. There answer is the new body but hopefully something will come out on this. I do think maybe direct this question at Phase themselves and see what a answer maybe.
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  16. #16
    bdeshazer
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by wolf65 View Post
    This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

    September 2008:

    Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

    The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...hutter-lenses/
    Wolf, notice that the Phase Announcement you linked to doesn't quote which body they'll work with. Also, the Mamiya announcement was the one that spoke about the AFDIII body compatibility, and of course there is no way of know what happened once they were assimilated by Phase.

    It is interesting that the press release quoted on photographyblog.com (and found several other places on the 'net) is not listed on the Phase One press releases page here: http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Pres...sReleases.aspx , although I don't know if it ever was. This appears to be the only one that at least implies compatibility with the Phamiya/AFDIII, although it specifically says "Phase One 645 camera system" and not "Phase One AFD camera"...

    I wasn't at Photokina or any of the other shows so I don't know if this 80mm l/s was ever actually demonstrated on the AFD...did anyone actually see this?

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdeshazer View Post
    Wolf, notice that the Phase Announcement you linked to doesn't quote which body they'll work with.
    now this is a bit nitpicking. If - in September 08 - new lenses are announced I expect them to work with the current camera of the system they are made for.
    Possibly you have to buy a 645DF2 if you want to use the vertical grip as it was never promised that it will work with the DF

  18. #18
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    now this is a bit nitpicking. If - in September 08 - new lenses are announced I expect them to work with the current camera of the system they are made for.
    Possibly you have to buy a 645DF2 if you want to use the vertical grip as it was never promised that it will work with the DF
    I agree with your sentiment, just playing devils advocate here a bit and pointing out that if you read these things literally, there is "plausible denyability" on what has actually been said/written.

    Brent

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    LOL sounds like always room for the oh ....s in the marketing material of any of these OEM's actually it is pretty standard.
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by wolf65 View Post
    This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

    September 2008:

    Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

    The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...hutter-lenses/
    Complete quote is, however:
    Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

    The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

    These lenses will make the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system. This will give photographers ultra-fast shutter speeds (up to 1/4000th) when shooting available light, and a fast flash sync speed of 1/800th when shooting with strobes.
    Which is exactly what they delivered, though with some delay. Adding, by the way, the 1/1600 flash sync with the new backs. Nowhere is mentioned compatibility with existing cameras, in fact it says it "will make the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system" - note the future tense - and it doesn't say something like "will add to the existing camera line up the capability of making the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system" In this and any other market, I tend to assume that what isn't said specifically and directly, no matter how much we wish it true, isn't necessarily going to happen. Especially when we are talking of a completely different system as LS and focal plane, which - so far and until the 645DF (or the S2, if the so far vaporware LS lenses will consolidate in real lenses ) - were not compatible with one other; assuming that the 645 AF will be able to use the LS lenses using the focal plane shutter make sense, assuming that it will be able to drive the LS makes much less sense to me, though of course I would love it to be possible by FW upgrade.
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdeshazer View Post
    I called Capture Integration a couple weeks ago to ask about this and surprise, surprise I haven't heard back. Judging from the CI love shown on this forum I must be the only person these jokers never call back or return e-mails to although I can't for the life of me figure out why.
    Brent, these lenses are not completed yet and R+D is ongoing as to whether they will be able to be made to work on the Phase One 645 AF. We don't know anything more, and frankly no one knows anything more because, as I said, the R+D is still being done.

    Phase and Mamiya have a good history of offering backwards compatibility where technically feasible. If it is feasible here technologically then they will do so.

    I'm surprised to hear of your disappointing interaction with us. If you're waiting for a call from one of us (I dont' know who you spoke with) about these lenses and the older body then you haven't received it probably because we don't know anything meaningful yet (see above). You say that you've had incomplete emails with us... I see two support cases (9/15/08 and 3/6/09) both of which are marked resolved. My cell phone, as well as the cells of most of our company are publicly available and we welcome your call anytime.

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    Senior Member Dave Gallagher's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    My cell phone is always on and I am always responsive to any complaints as to the reputation or professionalism of my company. If anyone on this or any other forum has any difficulties I suggest that they give me a call. I even answer on weekends and holidays. I think that many here will attest to this fact.

    Now as for the grip and the LS lenses, please don't get your hopes up. As we don't have all the information today, we can not formally release an answer and Phase One has been vague in their answers more than their normal. What we do know is that they "will be losing money" on each and every $1500 upgrade that they perform. Anyone who fits into this category should jump on the offer as the DF is in a class by itself compared to any Phase/Mamiya released up to this point. We will let everyone know about compatibility at our earliest confirmation from the homeland. I am very sorry that we can't give a more concrete response today.

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Is it a claim or fact that Phase is loosing money on a $1500 upgrade ? :-P

    So it seems they are really making a loss. One could say good for us, bad for them ;-)
    Last edited by Christopher; 12th October 2009 at 11:33.

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Thanks Dave and Doug for jumping in and giving updates on this situation with the LS lenses. Personally I am looking forward to these new lenses and certainly the upgraded body. Also as part owner of this site we are always happy to have all the detailers, retailers and OEM's of these companies we all use to come in and help the members and end users answer these tough questions to the best of there ability.
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  25. #25
    bdeshazer
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    I appreciate the updated information as well. It's surprising that dealers can take orders for these lenses now and that they're supposed to be shipping this quarter (per the press release) and yet they're still in the R&D phase.

    Regarding my other issues, I'm responding to these off the forum so as not to further detract from the subject of this thread.

  26. #26
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdeshazer View Post
    ... It's surprising that dealers can take orders for these lenses now and that they're supposed to be shipping this quarter (per the press release) and yet they're still in the R&D phase ...
    I think this might mean that they are still working on the software side seeing if they can FW upgrade the older bodies to make them work with the new leaf shutter lens; as well, assuming that they found out this to be possible, it might probably be reflecting some marketing thinking going on: once they find wether it is technically possible or not, they will have to decide if it is better marketing to give the upgrade to the 645 AF (selling more lenses, probably) or not (forcing more body upgrades or body sales, but probably selling less lenses in the end). If they can do the upgrade to the older bodies, it would make more sense to me to provide it; but then again, no matter how hard I try to see the best angle for Phase, I am probably thinking more from the user point of view than the sales side: I surely would love a FW upgrade! though, I will anyway upgrade my body (I already booked for it), and as a user I would be more interested in a FW solution to allow the use of film backs on the new 645 DF...
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    I think this might mean that they are still working on the software side seeing if they can FW upgrade the older bodies to make them work with the new leaf shutter lens; as well, assuming that they found out this to be possible.
    Correct; the R+D still under way in this case is the firmware in the lens (yes, lenses have firmware) and body is under R+D.

    R+D actually continues even after a lens ships. For instance the Phase One 80mm received a firmware upgrade which reduces black-out time by 20% (they tweaked the exact close/open/trigger timing) several months after it shipped. Body firmware is also continued after a body ships, for instance the Phase One 645 AF became much faster and more responsive after a firmware upgrade several months after it shipped; the original body was not bad, so if you bought it for what it was then you got a very pleasant free surprise.


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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    as a user I would be more interested in a FW solution to allow the use of film backs on the new 645 DF...
    I too am sad to see the option of film go away. However, they tell us it was necessary to drop film compatibility to gain other advantages regarding the internal timing of the body.

    A very good condition used AFD1 body with film back is about $400-$600 on KEH.com and can use all the lenses so far released (I don't know whether the Schneider lenses will work on it since they are not yet released) as well as shoot film.

    Doug

  29. #29
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I too am sad to see the option of film go away. However, they tell us it was necessary to drop film compatibility to gain other advantages regarding the internal timing of the body.

    A very good condition used AFD1 body with film back is about $400-$600 on KEH.com and can use all the lenses so far released (I don't know whether the Schneider lenses will work on it since they are not yet released) as well as shoot film.

    Doug
    Yeah, I am very sorry too - but I guess we'll have to accept the sacrifice on the altar of progress thanks very much for the suggestion, in fact, this is exactly what I planned to do as soon as I got confirmation about the non-compatibility with film backs - get the upgrade to the new 645 DF, wait for a little and then get a used AFD, I II or III as both a backup & a film body... even though not probably as cheap as you can find them in the US, I am pretty sure I can find a cheap enough body around here as well
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  30. #30
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    Re: New LS Lenses

    I think that $1500 for the upgrade sounds very fair. I suppose it might be Phase's concession to their customers since they appear not to be able to get the LS lenses to work on the AFDIII?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: New LS Lenses

    After buying a camera 8 months ago, expecting lf lenses soon to come, you don't really feel like spending another 1500$ for a new body that might have a few minor improvements.
    and by the way, nobody has offered an upgrade to me yet.

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