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New LS Lenses

wolf65

New member
There is some discussion going on wheather the new leaf shutter lenses that have been announced long time ago - and apparently finally hit the market - are prepared to work with the AfdIII. Anybody has some details?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The will work with the new DF body only. I think there is a upgrade path for current AFDIII users that bought a system . Not sure on the exact timing of your purchase but we tend to think the price is 1500.00 still waiting final word on all of this.
 

wolf65

New member
Hm, they have been telling us over and over that there will be ls lenses for the AfdIII.
Now they want us to spend another 1500$ for a new camera???
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I am upgrading there are some nice evolutionary changes that i am after with shutter lag, release, faster AF and more accurate and a few other goodies. For me it works but obviously for some it may not.
 

wolf65

New member
I found this:

Cologne, Germany – September 17, 2008 – In response to requests from Mamiya owners, a new leaf shutter lens for the 645 AFD III will be introduced at Photokina 2008.


from:
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-p...-leaf-shutter-lens-for-mamiya-645afd-iii.html

and this:

Phase One is also demonstrating a new 80 mm leafshutter lens, vertical grip, and additional accessories for the Phase One 645 camera system, that will be available Q109.

from:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/capture_one_4_pro_and_phase_one_lenses/
 
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bdeshazer

Guest
Gotta agree, if this turns out to be true I'll be a little po'd. While I don't mind paying to upgrade my lenses, being forced to upgrade the body at the additional cost when I was told the original Phamiya would be compatible is frustrating.

I called Capture Integration a couple weeks ago to ask about this and surprise, surprise I haven't heard back. Judging from the CI love shown on this forum I must be the only person these jokers never call back or return e-mails to although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Guy, I've been following that thread very closely and the verbiage ("The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters..." and "the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras") seemed to imply that they would only work on the new body, but like wolf65 I had been told that the L/S lenses would work on the original Phamiya. Hence my reason for calling CI for a definitive answer.

Brent
 
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vieri

Well-known member
... Judging from the CI love shown on this forum I must be the only person these jokers never call back or return e-mails to although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Doug, I've been following that thread very closely and the verbiage ("The 645DF camera is the only 645 medium format camera which supports both focal plane and leaf shutters..." and "the 55mm, 80mm and 110mm leaf shutter lenses designed for the Phase One 645DF and Mamiya 645DF cameras") seemed to imply that they would only work on the new body, but like wolf65 I had been told that the L/S lenses would work on the original Phamiya. Hence my reason for calling CI for a definitive answer.

Brent
Brent, while I would also be interested in an answer re: compatibility of the old camera with the new lenses, I think that - if at all - they might be compatible using the focal plane shutter only; you cannot expect that the new shutter in the new lenses would work on a camera not designed for it, unless a FW upgrade will be able to take care of it.

On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional; more, asking one of them directly for an answers three lines after having insulted them is not probably really conducive to getting the answer you want/need. Just MHO of course :rolleyes:
 

thomas

New member
On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional
I agree. But promising something that is not going to happen isn't professional neither. This is puffery on the black market.
We still wait for a statement - but the silence is suspicious.

edit: I am referring to Phase, not to the dealers who likely just belived what they were told from Phase.
 

vieri

Well-known member
I agree. But promising something that is not going to happen isn't professional neither. This is puffery on the black market.
We still wait for a statement - but the silence is suspicious.

edit: I am referring to Phase, not to the dealers who likely just belived what they were told from Phase.
Indeed as you said, even assuming that Phase will not deliver on the compatibility that Mamiya (not Phase, btw) promised between the new LS lenses and the old AFD III body, the dealers certainly have nothing to be blamed about.

My feeling is that the new lenses will be compatible for sure when using the focal plane shutter (I don't see why they shouldn't be), while I am not sure Phase will be able (or willing) to provide a FW upgrade for the use of the LS on older bodies. In both cases, calling a reputable dealer names on a public forum for something that is not his fault in the first place is, IMHO, uncalled for.
 
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bdeshazer

Guest
Brent, while I would also be interested in an answer re: compatibility of the old camera with the new lenses, I think that - if at all - they might be compatible using the focal plane shutter only; you cannot expect that the new shutter in the new lenses would work on a camera not designed for it, unless a FW upgrade will be able to take care of it.
Per Wolf's links, I was led to believe that these lenses would indeed work with the Phamiya body.

On a side note, I might respectfully suggest that calling people from what everyone knows as being a very respectable and responsive business "jokers" on a public forum is not very nice nor professional; more, asking one of them directly for an answers three lines after having insulted them is not probably really conducive to getting the answer you want/need. Just MHO of course :rolleyes:
Vieri, as the ultimate "nice guy" I would normally totally agree with you. However, a year of e-mails not responded to or only partially responded to and unreturned phone calls have me somewhat frustrated. It's reare for me to let negative emotion spill onto a public forum but I am human and occasionally slip.

The reference to "Doug" you quoted in your message was actually a typo on my part as my intention was to respond to Guy's reply in this thread. I caught this and edited my message but you evidently replied to my message as I was simultaneously editing it to fix that typo, I apologize for the confusion.

Brent
 

vieri

Well-known member
Per Wolf's links, I was led to believe that these lenses would indeed work with the Phamiya body.

Vieri, as the ultimate "nice guy" I would normally totally agree with you. However, a year of e-mails not responded to or only partially responded to and unreturned phone calls have me somewhat frustrated. It's reare for me to let negative emotion spill onto a public forum but I am human and occasionally slip.

The reference to "Doug" you quoted in your message was actually a typo on my part as my intention was to respond to Guy's reply in this thread. I caught this and edited my message but you evidently replied to my message as I was simultaneously editing it to fix that typo, I apologize for the confusion.

Brent
Brent, your frustration is understood of course, we are all human after all. :D I don't know how your communication with CI developed, so I will not go into that; I am surprised to hear that, after seeing on the forum how promptly they are generally responsive, as I am sure it is in their best interest to keep customers happy. I hope they will get back to you with all the info you need soon (maybe a private or even a public apology on the forum here would help mending the public name-calling, just a suggestion of course :D )
 

thomas

New member
again agreed. Still... they echoed the promise. So at least - justified or not - they are sitting in the same boat.
Still no reason to blame people in a public forum but it's somehow understandable because it's mostly the custumer who get's the kick in the arse (in the form of additional investment).
It's still true especially in this market: don't trust annoncements. Only trust things you have tested personally. For AFD3 users the LS lenses obviously are vaporware.
 

wolf65

New member
Indeed as you said, even assuming that Phase will not deliver on the compatibility that Mamiya (not Phase, btw) promised between the new LS lenses and the old AFD III body, the dealers certainly have nothing to be blamed about.
This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

September 2008:

Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/09/22/leaf-shutter-lenses/
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well first we really can't blame any dealer on those announcement from Phase that is what they are going by as well. Honestly I think it was a big money issue with Mamiya and reason we did not see anything for a long time there and than finally Phase invested in them and found a new partner Schneider to produce the LS glass. Lot's of weird things happen in MF but yes i remember those announcements as well and unfortunately the dealers get the brunt of all that. Which regardless of who they are they are all getting this same story line. Frankly I don't think they have the answer because Phase has not addressed it with the AFDIII and not sure technically they can. There answer is the new body but hopefully something will come out on this. I do think maybe direct this question at Phase themselves and see what a answer maybe.
 
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bdeshazer

Guest
This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

September 2008:

Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/09/22/leaf-shutter-lenses/
Wolf, notice that the Phase Announcement you linked to doesn't quote which body they'll work with. Also, the Mamiya announcement was the one that spoke about the AFDIII body compatibility, and of course there is no way of know what happened once they were assimilated by Phase.

It is interesting that the press release quoted on photographyblog.com (and found several other places on the 'net) is not listed on the Phase One press releases page here: http://www.phaseone.com/Content/PressInfo/PressMaterial/PhaseOneDBPressReleases.aspx , although I don't know if it ever was. This appears to be the only one that at least implies compatibility with the Phamiya/AFDIII, although it specifically says "Phase One 645 camera system" and not "Phase One AFD camera"...

I wasn't at Photokina or any of the other shows so I don't know if this 80mm l/s was ever actually demonstrated on the AFD...did anyone actually see this?
 

thomas

New member
Wolf, notice that the Phase Announcement you linked to doesn't quote which body they'll work with.
now this is a bit nitpicking. If - in September 08 - new lenses are announced I expect them to work with the current camera of the system they are made for.
Possibly you have to buy a 645DF2 if you want to use the vertical grip as it was never promised that it will work with the DF :shocked:
 
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bdeshazer

Guest
now this is a bit nitpicking. If - in September 08 - new lenses are announced I expect them to work with the current camera of the system they are made for.
Possibly you have to buy a 645DF2 if you want to use the vertical grip as it was never promised that it will work with the DF :shocked:
I agree with your sentiment, just playing devils advocate here a bit and pointing out that if you read these things literally, there is "plausible denyability" on what has actually been said/written.

Brent
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
LOL sounds like always room for the oh ....s in the marketing material of any of these OEM's actually it is pretty standard.
 

vieri

Well-known member
This is not true. Phase has repeatedly announced ls lenses for their excisting system.

September 2008:

Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/09/22/leaf-shutter-lenses/
Complete quote is, however:
Phase One has announced a new line of branded leaf shutter lenses.

The first lens to become available will be the 80mm leaf shutter lens. This will be followed by more leaf shutter lenses. Detailed specs on these lenses as well as availability will be posted shortly.

These lenses will make the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system. This will give photographers ultra-fast shutter speeds (up to 1/4000th) when shooting available light, and a fast flash sync speed of 1/800th when shooting with strobes.
Which is exactly what they delivered, though with some delay. Adding, by the way, the 1/1600 flash sync with the new backs. Nowhere is mentioned compatibility with existing cameras, in fact it says it "will make the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system" - note the future tense - and it doesn't say something like "will add to the existing camera line up the capability of making the Phase One system the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system" :rolleyes: In this and any other market, I tend to assume that what isn't said specifically and directly, no matter how much we wish it true, isn't necessarily going to happen. Especially when we are talking of a completely different system as LS and focal plane, which - so far and until the 645DF (or the S2, if the so far vaporware LS lenses will consolidate in real lenses :D ) - were not compatible with one other; assuming that the 645 AF will be able to use the LS lenses using the focal plane shutter make sense, assuming that it will be able to drive the LS makes much less sense to me, though of course I would love it to be possible by FW upgrade. :D
 
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