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Thread: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

  1. #101
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agreed. But recently I've been getting that same kind of flexibility from my Canon 1Ds3 files in C1!
    Yes I know that and I know the reason why too. LOL

    Most folks will have to wait to see those reasons in a couple weeks.

    let's just keep everyone tuned in a little here. C1 Version 5 rocks the house.

    Counting hours to get out of here. My flight tomorrow is not soon enough. My wife decided to have a garage sale next week and is ripping the place apart. I am left with no place to hide anymore. GET ME OUTTA HERE.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I wasn't specifically thinking of your post. Others have stated pretty clearly (not necessarily in this forum) that Leica is foolish for not pricing it at that level. How anyone can make statements like that without knowing what it cost to make one is beyond me.

    I am sure that the S2 would be a runaway bestseller at $10-12k, but I am equally sure that it would put Leica out of business, with a heavy loss on every camera.
    Dear Carsten,
    I'm not so sure (about the bestseller part. Otherwise, I agree) . On thing that everyone is ignoring is the volume needed to generate the same profit. R&D will be an enormous amount to amortize; if it is say 5k R&D and 5K variable, there is a 7x margin difference (12-10=2 vs 24-10=14). Having seen the production methods at Leica (and Phase) these things have little scale. They could never increase volume 7-fold. Look at the wait for lenses!

    On the other side, even at $8k, there are people who will just think "i'm just not into Leica" Even if ALL the photographers on LL, hear and LUF bought it if they were in the market, it is a tiny fraction of the market needed.

    I remember, when the MB ML series came out it was close to the Jeep price, yet Jeep outsold.

    In 1992 I leased a C class for my daughter LESS than a comparable Toyota!

    You may not like it, but people pigeonhole themselves, and whether its MB or Leica, tearing people from mass market products is tough.

    As a high end producer, you might as well take the extra money, because you ain't gonna get the extra volume.

    regards
    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 17th October 2009 at 14:39.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Well we don't need it to be 10k, but I had hoped for 18k EUR WITH a lens or around 14k without.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    P40 file is looking impressive! (But frankly, at least from a DR standpoint, not that different from your P30+ --- maybe 1/3 a stop in the shadows?)
    He did say it was at ISO 100. The main difference between ISO 50 and ISO 100 on the P40+ is less dynamic range if the image needs to be recovered in highlights or shadows.

    But yes, the difference is not night-and-day between a 30+ and 40+; IMO (and I know it sounds a bit sale-ish but I mean it from a purely technical view) is that they decreased the micron size and the usable DR went UP rather than down.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I agree that I had hoped that it would come in less than €20k with the 70mm, but unlike some, I don't think that Leica is over-pricing items. I believe that it just cost that much to R&D and build them.

    Anyway, is it what it is. Each of us will look at the price and think yes or no. End of story.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Jono they probably will sell to the hobbyist , more of my point is this is directed at Pro's and to get them to jump ship or buy up or whatever it is going to be the challenge. Than again we have to see where leica really wants to target for the hobbyist many things as Victor said won't matter much but some selling point will matter and the rest is a easy compromise to buy. That I agree with, it don't have to be perfect on everything. Now if they are going after the Pro's than they are going after a market they really never went after in a sense. So they have to change the plan and there strategy to get Pro's to jump.
    Hi Guy
    but . . . my point is that if they can sell all the cameras they make then they don't need to spend extra money wooing you - or anyone else (and which business cared who they sold to . . as long as they can sell everything they make at a decent margin)
    Last edited by jonoslack; 17th October 2009 at 16:42.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I think that the error here is the belief that the S-2 is targeted at pros (regardless of Leica's stated target market [read: marketing]). I believe that the S-2 is very simply targeted at anyone with $50K or so in disposable income. One thousand units is very few when one considers the size of the pool of wealthy enthusiasts globally, in addition to any pros who can justify it from a business point of view.

    In Bangkok (where I am currently) 7-series BMWs go for $340K or so, and there are a zillion of them. Seoul has real money, as does Hong Kong and mainland China, etc. In these parts of the world it is still quite common to see abundant and conspicuous consumption of luxury brands. $50K is chump change when it comes to these status symbols. And a lot of the "enthusiast market" consumers will be a lot lower maintenance for Leica than will working pros.

    I'm not saying that the S-2 is only a status symbol, but simply saying if they can only deliver 1000 units, I doubt the real goal is to get a big part of the pro market on board for anything other than projecting credibility.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Well, I've really enjoyed reading this thread - fascinating!

    Rarely has so much been written by so many who have seen the files of so few....(With apologies to Winston Churchill.)

    But just like y'all, I can't wait to handle, load and shoot an S2!

    Bill

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I agree with Dale,
    Leica has a huge cult following in Asia,lot's of collectors and posers out there.
    Why do you think Leica makes an M body with lizard skin and gold plated?
    These sort of bodies sell for $25.000
    Sebastian Segaldos Leica signed kit,was on offer for $100.000
    And what about this Rollei kit for $66.000 ?
    http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rolleiflex-80...ht_2299wt_1167

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I am not sure how many S2s Leica will be able to sell to the kind of collector who never opens it. If they were special editions, sure, but they are not. I am sure that the wealthy enthusiast will figure in their income, however.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am not sure how many S2s Leica will be able to sell to the kind of collector who never opens it. If they were special editions, sure, but they are not. I am sure that the wealthy enthusiast will figure in their income, however.
    If they don't sell enough of them in fairly good order, it'll become a "collector's item" by default Rarity breeds scarcity, which leads to feeding frenzies amongst the freshly filthy rich.

    Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?

    -Marc

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If they don't sell enough of them in fairly good order, it'll become a "collector's item" by default Rarity breeds scarcity, which leads to feeding frenzies amongst the freshly filthy rich.

    Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?

    -Marc

    Well, it could certainly have been worse!

    I imagine Leica simply want to make money, and will be happy to sell their camera to whoever will buy it. As Dale said, they only need a few professionals for credibility. Mind you, if it's as good as it might be, then I would have thought there will be professionals who can and will afford the price of entry.

    Interesting that when this discussion came up before in June, the arguments were all pretty much the same (from the same people). What has changed since then is the M9 - one of the central parts of the argument then was that the S2 was make or break for Leica, but the obvious popularity of the M9, and likely sales of the X1 mean that probably isn't the case anymore.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I think that is right Jono.

    The M9 was a sure bet and a very smart move. Every dealer in the country has a long list of back-orders for the M9, and that will keep the cash flow moving if they can handle production. One would think pressure on the S2 has to be lessened by this.

    -Marc

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    There are more amateur enthusiasts shooting with Alpa gear than pro shooters. Same with Leica M. The same will be so for the S2. There are more amateur drivers in Lambos/Ferraris and Maclarens than pros. there are more amateur owners of diamonds and designer clothing than models or their gay agents etc etc etc etc etc

    The eccentric fondler amateur shooter wants to buy nice looking sexy stuff - or NOTHING. Same with cars - the enthusiast will buy the best she or he can afford. Petrol heads and Car collectors are nutzo - be it having to have the latest this or that or the biggest this or that or the fastest this or that or the best example of this or that - as long as it is SEXY looking and has some brag factor - money is no object.

    Lets be frank - the S2 is the best looking SLR camera wearing a 40 megapixeld chip out there. It has black beautiful velvety web shots made of its lenses - the marketing angle is pure jewelry/exotic sport car ..

    Against which we the stodgy my clunky crapola camera is better thna your crapola looking camera and my megapixels are beter than your megapixels competition. I mean phse One's idea of selling sex is ..having an elephant stand on their camera back - liek thats real world??? It is utilitarian MF pro shootin gear - which can have an elephant stand on it.. I mean no Leica person WANTS an elephant standing on his or her camera - they want the camera looking cool.

    I understand this desire very much. I have a scratch itching so hard I mean so hard to buy the S2. My brain tells me I dont need one - my heart is laughing at my brain and helping raionalise the Siren's Call -

    In fact all you guys know you want one.

    Whoever doesnt get one - will have all sorts of rationalisations for not getting one, all sorts of my Jap car is better than your R8...
    Whoever buys one - wont have any rationalizations - they will just have a grin from ear to ear on their face .


    I hope these facts dont upset anyone - cos I know the truth hurts. Leica understands their place in the universe. make the coolest gear and sell it it people willing to pay massive premiums for the coolest gear.

    Simple really


    This is why the S2 with all its comparative point by point disadvantages will make Leica a lot of money - as long as it works better than the M8 did on launch - they have nothing to worry about.

    If you few dozen pros also happen to be fondlers - all the better. No one is going to listen to the voices from the Gulag saying that a 5D11 is more camera than anyone needs....

    Teh ONLY response existing manufacturers have will be price reductions..
    Leica wont budge. the price reductions will be about fighting teh utilitarian established players losing games...Leica wil have a lot of margin to come down on - bu they wont use it much..

  15. #115
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    In fact all you guys know you want one.
    This guy certainly doesn't.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    This guy certainly doesn't.
    Perhaps you have handled the S2, I don't know. However, I think most photographers will want the S2 after they get a chance to handle the camera and see the files that it and the lenses produce.

    Granted, wanting an S2 and justifying the purchase are two entirely different things.

    Mark

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Wow, cameras as cars or jewelry? I guess I get part of that for some folks, but honestly not me. To me they -- meaning cameras -- are just tools and sex appeal has little to do with what I choose or why I choose it. Cars, yeah, I like great looking cars as much as the next guy, but reality dictates I need to drive an SUV -- I couldn't get all my photo gear into a Corvette!
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Peter is right, I know that customer very well. Many well to do gentlemen in the Far East have hobbies like high-end audio, collecting cars or watches and pens, both for prestige and social opportunities. Many of them have a Leica, Rollei, or Hassy sitting on some shelf or maybe even behind glass somewhere in their home. I've been working with such crowds for many years, all you need is for a couple of people in each group to buy an S2 and flaunt to others before half of that social group would own one, the rest will wait for S3 so they can buy their S2 from the current owners who will hardly ever use it. Its not a mentality or personality type that most can understand or sympathize with in the West.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?
    <black humour warning>Maybe they were afraid she would pawn it.</black humour warning>

    Seal has some connection with Leica in recent times, and he is well known. I would have liked to see another one go to Sebastiao Salgado or something of that stature, but there is still time for this.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    <black humour warning>Maybe they were afraid she would pawn it.</black humour warning>

    Seal has some connection with Leica in recent times, and he is well known. I would have liked to see another one go to Sebastiao Salgado or something of that stature, but there is still time for this.

    I'm not sure how any of us would know who Leica gives free equipment to. I'm pretty sure that they don't publish that list.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I imagine Leica simply want to make money, and will be happy to sell their camera to whoever will buy it. As Dale said, they only need a few professionals for credibility. Mind you, if it's as good as it might be, then I would have thought there will be professionals who can and will afford the price of entry.
    Bingo. The kind of pro this camera is so obviously aimed at doesn't hang around here. There are a few on LL, and there are many more who just don't hang around photo forums, or at least don't post. High-flying fashion photography matches this camera to a T and I wouldn't be surprised to see the S2 quasi-take over this market in a year or two, unless some of the other manufacturers respond in kind. These high-end pros don't need to worry about the money, they will worry about the feature-set and the service, and if it is right, they will order two and half the lens lineup in one go.

    For a landscape photographer, the S2 would be kinda nice, but not really necessary. A high-end fashion photographer would probably look at this camera and go "finally!". As long as it works well, and the service is good.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdphotography View Post
    I'm not sure how any of us would know who Leica gives free equipment to. I'm pretty sure that they don't publish that list.
    Well, there are two reasons to give away a camera, and for the first, you are right. Feedback is wanted, no one needs to know. The second type is for publicity, like Seal, and we will know when they do it.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, there are two reasons to give away a camera, and for the first, you are right. Feedback is wanted, no one needs to know. The second type is for publicity, like Seal, and we will know when they do it.
    Having a name means absolutely nothing. I know more names that there work flat out sucks. It's not photography but marketing yourself. Issue is many people base the photography on how good the model looks not how good the shooter is. I seen more hacks in the fashion world than anywhere and the models are making them the money not the other way around. People really lost touch with the great shooters of the world and what they look at is all surface imagery anymore not the style of the real photographers body of work. Stick a canon in a face and lets go 8 fps at ISO 3200 with **** light is not photography, it's a sell out. Most of these folks don't know what a light is. That is where the dying art is, when people stop using lighting to create art
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    However, I think most photographers will want the S2 after they get a chance to handle the camera and see the files that it and the lenses produce.
    Mark
    That may well be your position and the position of "most photographers", but it isn't mine.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Having a name means absolutely nothing. I know more names that there work flat out sucks. It's not photography but marketing yourself. Issue is many people base the photography on how good the model looks not how good the shooter is. I seen more hacks in the fashion world than anywhere and the models are making them the money not the other way around. People really lost touch with the great shooters of the world and what they look at is all surface imagery anymore not the style of the real photographers body of work. Stick a canon in a face and lets go 8 fps at ISO 3200 with **** light is not photography, it's a sell out. Most of these folks don't know what a light is. That is where the dying art is, when people stop using lighting to create art
    I am not talking about lighting, talent, high ISO or anything else. I am talking about high-pressure, high-throughput fashion photography. Don't get me wrong, I like almost no fashion photography, but there is any number of photographers in this segment earning well into 6 and 7 digits, in NYC, LA, Paris, London, Milano, and so on, and these people may well buy an S2. It fits the bill.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I know I want one. Just need to wait a little while till those bailout dollars trickle down to my level. Of course they might be on the S5 before that happens

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Following all of this discussions with great interest. And I could not say they are wrong - of course not.

    But I would buy a S2 in a minute if I would be convinced it is sufficient for great landscape work and resulting high res large format fine art prints. But I am not really convinced, maybe after some first test results.

    So it could very well be that the S2 is not only for fashion photography and the likes, but also some great system for landscape and nature.

    Will become interesting in a few weeks from now when we see first results

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Hi Peter

    I think I agree with almost every word,
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    In fact all you guys know you want one.
    Except for this one - it isn't for me. . .. If I really did want one, then I suppose I could have one, but it wouldn't suit my type of photography. Two M9 bodies is a different matter

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Hi Marc,

    Great suggestions above. They are given with great thought and expertise in the field, BUT, all become academic if you allow time and patience to be your friend. Time you have; patience...maybe or maybe not.

    Considering the array of gear you have, just wait a bunch of months to a year OR MORE. Sometime down the road, you'll be able to "borrow" one to put through the wringer, or at the very least, as David F. says, rent one!

    Jorgen questions whether you will be able to resist the temptation of new gear in the future and points to that bedeviling thing called "lust". Lust producers come in various forms depending on the area of interest, but in photography, I'd venture the guess that lust is produced more by reading boards than any other factor. Mortal men/ladies with a passion for the medium can not resist reading the boards, so you will have to steel yourself against the resultant lust.

    Lacking even a fraction of the experience of the posters here, I cannot presume to guide you except in the one thing of which I'm certain...go slow or better yet, go not at all (until much later, that is).

    Like Peter, though, I'm glued to this thread and immensely enjoying watching others agonize on how to spend their/others' money. Best of luck!
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    My strategy is to get my hands on one, then:
    it will be an ignore or acquire decision. Probably ignore IMO

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Lemme see now - an S2 Platinum 40 megapixel camera with a 35/70/180 is how much more than a PhimiyaBlad with a 28/80/150 ?

    Hmm which one looks better?

    I can arrange all the M lenses I own along one side of a shelf and then all the lenses for the S2 along the other. My mint M3/M7/MPs and M8's leading to the M9. The S2 and lenses balancing out the display.

    I will use the same colour corrected lighting I use in my gallery to shine up through glass and down in order to make an interesting anecodote for this years dinner party circuit.

    If I was after utility - I'd buy a plastic fantastic CaNikon..would I display this stuff? Would you?

    hahahahhahah


    on making pics - you say? Sheesh boyz I cant see the difference in an A3 print between any of the cameras I own and use. We passed that point years ago - everything now is just marketing spin and post hoc rationalisation.

    There is a pure honesty in what I write. The more Leica stick to this demographic - the more successful they will be.

    I dont run money for 401K plans - ther eisnt any margin in it and peopel dont repsect risk and return. they want a mass market brand name and cheapo deluxo savings solutions.

    it is all about bespoke service to teh right demographic in any market you are in - as a provider of goods and services OR as a buyer.

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    hahahahhahah


    on making pics - you say? Sheesh boyz I cant see the difference in an A3 print between any of the cameras I own and use. We passed that point years ago - everything now is just marketing spin and post hoc rationalisation.

    Hi Peter
    so will you be getting the first one in Australia?

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I know I want one. Just need to wait a little while till those bailout dollars trickle down to my level. Of course they might be on the S5 before that happens

    At which point the price of a used S2 might even be in the sub-$10k range. Heck, we might even be able to get a used S2 body and a few used lenses for that price. One can only hope......

    Gary

  34. #134
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by beamon View Post
    ....I cannot presume to guide you except in the one thing of which I'm certain...go slow or better yet, go not at all (until much later, that is).
    Hey, we agree on something! Some folks just have to be in the leading edge, for commercial, professional or personal reasons.....for the rest of us, it's good to be on the trailing edge. It saves alot of money and potential heartburn.

    Gary

  35. #135
    gdwhalen
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Hey, we agree on something! Some folks just have to be in the leading edge, for commercial, professional or personal reasons.....for the rest of us, it's good to be on the trailing edge. It saves alot of money and potential heartburn.

    Gary
    I'm curious as to why people in here care what other people do with their money? Although I will not be buying into the S2 system I have no issues with anyone else doing so for "whatever" reason they deem fit. All the best to them.

  36. #136
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdphotography View Post
    I'm curious as to why people in here care what other people do with their money? Although I will not be buying into the S2 system I have no issues with anyone else doing so for "whatever" reason they deem fit. All the best to them.
    I agree....all the best to them...for whatever reason they deem fit. Not my concern.

    I'm just glad that someone will buy the S2 (and S3, S4, S5 etc) so that someday I might afford/buy a lightly used S2 (perhaps owned by a busy hedge fund manager).

    Gary

  37. #137
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    "I'm curious as to why people in here care what other people do with their money?"

    I think the answer for many is that the original post asked people for advice. ("Your thoughts?")

  38. #138
    Super Duper
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by beamon View Post
    Hi Marc,

    Great suggestions above. They are given with great thought and expertise in the field, BUT, all become academic if you allow time and patience to be your friend. Time you have; patience...maybe or maybe not.

    Considering the array of gear you have, just wait a bunch of months to a year OR MORE. Sometime down the road, you'll be able to "borrow" one to put through the wringer, or at the very least, as David F. says, rent one!

    Jorgen questions whether you will be able to resist the temptation of new gear in the future and points to that bedeviling thing called "lust". Lust producers come in various forms depending on the area of interest, but in photography, I'd venture the guess that lust is produced more by reading boards than any other factor. Mortal men/ladies with a passion for the medium can not resist reading the boards, so you will have to steel yourself against the resultant lust.

    Lacking even a fraction of the experience of the posters here, I cannot presume to guide you except in the one thing of which I'm certain...go slow or better yet, go not at all (until much later, that is).

    Like Peter, though, I'm glued to this thread and immensely enjoying watching others agonize on how to spend their/others' money. Best of luck!
    First of all, I'm not spending a penny ... yet. Talk is cheap.

    I had gear lust before the internet was a twinkle in some geek's eye.

    - Marc

  39. #139
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Bingo. The kind of pro this camera is so obviously aimed at doesn't hang around here. There are a few on LL, and there are many more who just don't hang around photo forums, or at least don't post. High-flying fashion photography matches this camera to a T and I wouldn't be surprised to see the S2 quasi-take over this market in a year or two, unless some of the other manufacturers respond in kind. These high-end pros don't need to worry about the money, they will worry about the feature-set and the service, and if it is right, they will order two and half the lens lineup in one go.

    For a landscape photographer, the S2 would be kinda nice, but not really necessary. A high-end fashion photographer would probably look at this camera and go "finally!". As long as it works well, and the service is good.
    Let's talk reality for a second; The majority of high end (digital) fashion photography in recent years has been done on either Canon 1Ds II/ III cameras or Phase/ Leaf backs attached to H1/H2 or an RZ. If this new camera wants to succeed there it needs to win the Canon on Speed/ potability/ high iso & fast AF and then to win the MF solutions on tethered workflow and image quality

    Or it can sit somewhere in the middle, being slightly faster than MF and slightly better than Canon (IQ wise).

    Tethered workflow is where MF is king (at least Phase and Leaf) and this is after 15 years (since 1994, when the Leaf Catchlight was introduced) of fine tuning it and optimising its performance and functionality.

    The two most popular software packages (for tethering MF) in recent years have been C1 (3 and later on 4) and LC. The new camera tethers to none of those.

    High iso, portability, fast AF and fast capture is where Canon is king (and recently Nikon as well). The new camera offers nothing better in those areas.

    This is how it is going to be judged for high end fashion photography plus it'll have to be widely available in rental in the major cities. 1,000 units/ year are not going to make an impact there I'm afraid.

  40. #140
    gdwhalen
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Why any professional photographer would buy into a system with only 3-4 lenses is beyond me.

  41. #141
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    Why any professional photographer would buy into a system with only 3-4 lenses is beyond me.
    Because that's all they need?

    Actually the better question is why would any Professional photographer buy ANY full system at these prices when they could rent the specific speciality lenses only when needed.

  42. #142
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Let's talk reality for a second; The majority of high end (digital) fashion photography in recent years has been done on either Canon 1Ds II/ III cameras or Phase/ Leaf backs attached to H1/H2 or an RZ. If this new camera wants to succeed there it needs to win the Canon on Speed/ potability/ high iso & fast AF and then to win the MF solutions on tethered workflow and image quality

    Or it can sit somewhere in the middle, being slightly faster than MF and slightly better than Canon (IQ wise).

    Tethered workflow is where MF is king (at least Phase and Leaf) and this is after 15 years (since 1994, when the Leaf Catchlight was introduced) of fine tuning it and optimising its performance and functionality.

    The two most popular software packages (for tethering MF) in recent years have been C1 (3 and later on 4) and LC. The new camera tethers to none of those.

    High iso, portability, fast AF and fast capture is where Canon is king (and recently Nikon as well). The new camera offers nothing better in those areas.

    This is how it is going to be judged for high end fashion photography plus it'll have to be widely available in rental in the major cities. 1,000 units/ year are not going to make an impact there I'm afraid.
    Have to agree these shooters do NOT buy MF gear they rent for almost every big job and getting rental houses stocked around the world with S2's is going to be really tough when they are already loaded with Phase, Hassy and Leaf gear. Otherwise they are shooting Canons mostly and for editorial work no one hardly shoots MF because there is no money in shooting editorial so either they own MF or they shoot with existing gear , there is no money for rentals only the advertising shoots they can chargeback the rental fee's . Pretty rare on editorial to get rental fees included in the shoot.

    Just the tethered stuff alone in a advertising shoot is not luxury to have it is a demand from the art directors and clients. Hot folder operation is not very elegant. You really want dedicated software for this so you can fine tune WB, Use color editor to match clothing and obviously lighting , posing and all that stuff as well but from the technical side you need to make all the adjustments apply that than all remaining shots come in exactly the same. This part is very under estimated how important this is to say have the blue jean color match exactly to the product.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    You have to ask yourself - why didnt Leica continue the relationship with C1 with the S2 - since it worked so well with the M series cameras?

    Anyone have any clues on this? Seems to be a BIG hole in their strategy of delivering a professional camera system for professionals - if they cant shoot tethered?

  44. #144
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    Why any professional photographer would buy into a system with only 3-4 lenses is beyond me.
    I shoot most weddings, in entirety, with two primes...

    3-4 lenses is perfect (for me)

  45. #145
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc - if you're still think about a S2, the wait just a got longer... Due in December now.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Interesting discourse, enjoyable read!

    In related news:

    http://www.bjp-online.com/public/sho...ml?page=870175

  47. #147
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Hmmm....so rather than ship those that are supposedly ready for the October delivery, they are choosing to hold all of them up until some production catches up for December delivery? Just sounds like there may be something other than production catch-up issues here, like needing to tweak more things that still are not where they should be. Just my speculation here, and I probably should not, but let's see if they actually make the December delivery before really wondering what is going on.

    LJ

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You have to ask yourself - why didnt Leica continue the relationship with C1 with the S2 - since it worked so well with the M series cameras?

    Anyone have any clues on this? Seems to be a BIG hole in their strategy of delivering a professional camera system for professionals - if they cant shoot tethered?
    Leica's decision to move to Adobe was made in Dec 2008, just 2-3 months after the P1-Leica alliance was announced.

    The reasons were twofold:

    1) The S2 is now a direct competitor to Phase One's hardware business. There were concerns at Leica that P1 would somehow undermine the output quality from C1. There was also the issue that anyone receiving a copy of C1 must register on Phase's website with name, email, address, and product. Essentially, Leica would be handing over their entire list of S2 customers on a silver platter.

    2) From a software point of view, Adobe brings a lot to the table. LR has become the most popular and widely used RAW processor in a very short amount of time. Adobe products are stable, full-featured, and ubiquitous. Adobe won't stop their pace of development. LR 3 is expected to be out within a matter of months. The integration with CS4 (later CS5) is also beneficial. Ultimately, Leica felt that Adobe would be the strongest software partner for the long term.

    Why don't we wait and see what the Leica Image Shuttle application looks like before passing judgment on tethering capability?

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Hi david,

    Thanks for that.

    Also I PM'd you a while back in response to your PM...woudl appreciate your thoughts?

    Pete

  50. #150
    ddk
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    I shoot most weddings, in entirety, with two primes...

    3-4 lenses is perfect (for me)
    3-4 lenses is perfect for me too and probably as well as a lot of other photographers, but it depends on which 3 or 4. I'm among the group who's ready to jump on the S2 early on, but there are two things that are holding me back. One is the lack of dedicated software, which might turn out to be a good thing but since my past experience with DNG files hasn't been to my liking, its something that I need to see for myself. The unresolved issue is the lack of a normal wide angle in the 40mm-50mm range, this is a biggy for me since its one of my main focal lengths. I know about the zoom lens and as great as it might be, I just don't want one and nothing has been mentioned about this fl in any of their material, so in my case I'm not getting even that 3 or 4 pieces of glass to make it a useable system for now...

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