The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
It was head and shoulders above the P65+ in detail and clarity.
Brad, I have no doubt the S2 IQ is and will be excellent when the public camera is finally released. However I'd be careful about placing too much stock in that comparison with the P65+ just yet as lots of variables can affect how an image looks -- so with that in mind, I ask these questions:

Who did the P65+ processing?

How did they do it and what conversion software did they use?

Next, what camera and lens was used for the P65+ shot?

Were both images of identical subjects taken in identical lighting from shooting positions that rendered equivalent image compositions and image magnifications?

Also, there are a few C1 processing surprises waiting for you to see in Oregon :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Bottom line until I process the raw files myself , I trust no one. Sorry that sounds mean and not very nice but unless i see it on my own it's my hard earned money going out there and nothing is going to make me believe anything until it is in my hands and I flat out told leica the same thing and they know that. They completely understand my concerns about that. Even if it is how much is it worth. I do this everyday for 33 years and been shooting digital since 1990 and I am considered a expert and teach raw processing. That is not a pat on the back that is fact. Truthfully there are only 3 people I trust more than myself and they are all on the workshop. Not that there are not experts out there but my point being is it's my money and my judgement call. Nice to hear about it but I need to see it and no offense to anyone . I just been doing this so long that I have grown very skeptical of claims that I have not done myself. Just had to be said
 

bradhusick

Active member
David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems. I know, it sounds like heresy to say such glowing things about a beta camera, but I am haunted by the incredible IQ of what I saw in the S2.

Can't wait to learn more in OR :)
 

vieri

Well-known member
Bottom line until I process the raw files myself , I trust no one. Sorry that sounds mean and not very nice but unless i see it on my own it's my hard earned money going out there and nothing is going to make me believe anything until it is in my hands and I flat out told leica the same thing and they know that. They completely understand my concerns about that. Even if it is how much is it worth. I do this everyday for 33 years and been shooting digital since 1990 and I am considered a expert and teach raw processing. That is not a pat on the back that is fact. Truthfully there are only 3 people I trust more than myself and they are all on the workshop. Not that there are not experts out there but my point being is it's my money and my judgement call. Nice to hear about it but I need to see it and no offense to anyone . I just been doing this so long that I have grown very skeptical of claims that I have not done myself. Just had to be said
Second that. Wiser words were never spoken :D I have been using digital now for about 5 years and though I am not into this digi-madness as long as Guy I can say that I have seen too many friends & colleagues going belly up by putting loads of cash into something they didn't tested or tried directly, just to find out that it wasn't for them - but then it was too late, money was lost in big amounts and someone even did go out of business eventually to follow what was supposed to be the latest & greatest; which sometimes it might have been but not what they needed. Add that to the costs of jumping ship every time that manufacturer B comes out with something better just to jump back to manufacturer A when they release the next model, buying & selling lenses accessories etc and what you get is not a pretty picture.

Bottom line for me is one has to do their homework first to find out what is the best tool to do the job at hand, then to get the tool that gets closest to perfect for the task, then learn how to get the best out of it, then - if they need more - just stick to the chosen manufacturer upgrade path assuming there is one (which is something that must go into the choosing process in the first place).

Just my .02... :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
 
J

jingq

Guest
Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
words of wisdom Guy.
Remember,the moment you buy a MFDB system the value of it plummets at least 5k.
With a DSLR you could probably sell it off for a few hundred bucks loss only

Don't trust anything MFDB promises till you've played with it a few times.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Marc
it sounds like the sort of argument I use when I want something badly. I also often present the argument to other people so that they can agree that I'm right. :)

I always win in the end :ROTFL:

On a more serious note, if the S2 does what it says on the tin, I would have thought it would be a fantastic choice.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc - technically speaking, what do you expect the S2 to do that your other equipment currently cannot do?
Best question yet.

Provide the handling, ergonomics and close to the speed of a 35mm DSLR, with the image quality and file size of a MFD.

Which is why I need to try the camera before buying anything. And not in some dealer's environment, but in one like I shoot in.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
Indeed - the entrance ticket to MF is way high to be able to make mistakes (unless one is very rich, and even then). To me, Hasselblad & Phase both do the job when it comes to deliver the files, and I am pretty sure the S2 will deliver as well; however, when it comes to future-proofness & to flexibility (use with view cameras, for one, completeness of the system or its openness for another), then the number of players in the game drastically reduce. View camera for me is big part of the deal, because is a great way to put your (expensive) back to a good use and thus to maximize ROI once you got one by a relative small ulterior investment: this is why I do mention this often. Considering that the price of a Phase system with say three lenses AND a view camera + optical bench with say three lenses is cheaper than a S2 with three lenses gives one food for thought; as well, considering the availability today of lenses & accessories for the S2 vs Phase or Hassy is something else of interest IMHO. Not saying that the S2 is not going to be great, nor that it will never be a complete system: just saying that today both these claims are very theoretical, and while at least someone has seen files from the S2 and can vouch for the first, the second is really very much up in the air... No matter what one likes and which direction one decides to go, these are all things to be kept well in mind. :D

Once more, just my .02...
 

Henry Goh

Member
Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
Can't agree more with you Guy. I spent a good 2 years researching/waiting for the right product/price point before I bought. Also I found that it is important to make sure the software you are going to use is good.
 

carstenw

Active member
The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances.
Okay, now you are haunting me! I was expecting the S2 to be good, very good, better even than the 39/40MP backs, but I was not expecting to hear this. My Sinar back doesn't block up the shadows, but if I boost the black level even 1 or 2 points, it does sometimes block up, so the output is just so finely tuned and leaves little leeway in some situations. I would love a camera with a little more leeway there, but then again, I cannot trade in a €5000 back for a €20000 camera :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The P65 I never seen block up and actually I have to add some black. The P65 is rated at 12.5 stops and the S2 at 12 stops so right there is a question mark and I will say Phase is pretty accurate with that number . The 40 and 65 do have more DR than my P30 and the P45 with the Kodak 6.8 micron size and the 6 micron is better in this area, so it does make you wonder about that. At least for me it does because i can see the difference between the P40 and P30 which I am sitting here waiting on the P40 right now to take up to the workshop. Now would be a nice time for a S2 in my hands also. Not to say Leica did not try and get one in my hands, they did but Photoplus and a few more events at the same time made it tough to do. Just seems funny to hear the P65 blocked up. That back will be on the workshop as well
 

jonoslack

Active member
Okay, now you are haunting me! I was expecting the S2 to be good, very good, better even than the 39/40MP backs, but I was not expecting to hear this. My Sinar back doesn't block up the shadows, but if I boost the black level even 1 or 2 points, it does sometimes block up, so the output is just so finely tuned and leaves little leeway in some situations. I would love a camera with a little more leeway there, but then again, I cannot trade in a €5000 back for a €20000 camera :)
Hi Carsten
If it's good . . .I'm sure you'll get there (unfortunately I really won't :()
 

LJL

New member
Marc,
Is there a cutoff date on the trade-in deal option with the H3DII-39 to H4D-60 that you are worrying about? If there is, you could still probably do the deal with Hassy to extract as much as you could from the H3DII-39, start shooting the H4D-60 for a bit while you also get a chance to test drive the S2 for comparison purposes. If the S2 winds up floating your boat (small yacht), you could still more than likely be able to sell the H4D-60 and lenses at a decent price to help cover the S2 system as it continues to develop. Do not think you would be losing that much if anything at that point, while getting a much better idea of any S2 issues, service, handling, lens performance, etc., etc. Regardless of what folks say, the S2 is a very big leap, and it would simply be wise to let it come to market, work out the bugs, and get some idea of its promise before sinking a huge nut into it untried and untested for YOUR needs. Just one more stick of fuel onto your growing fire ;-)

LJ

P.S. Oops....went back to your other posts....you are NOT planning on having the S2 replace the Hassy stuff, as you still want the other capabilities with the removable back, as you say. I was thinking that the S2 system may replace the Hassy and any 35mm stuff you might be shooting. Not quite the blanket capabilities you have available now, but probably hitting 85-90% of needs. That remaining percentage could always be covered with rental, if you really had to go that way.
 
Last edited:

dfarkas

Workshop Member
David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems. I know, it sounds like heresy to say such glowing things about a beta camera, but I am haunted by the incredible IQ of what I saw in the S2.

Can't wait to learn more in OR :)
Brad,

Actually, the P65+ shot I showed you was a sample from Capture Integration's website, shot in the alley behind their store in Atlanta with a Cambo RS and Schneider Digitar lens, on a tripod. The file is available here for download: http://www.captureintegration.com/download/P65_plus_10fall.zip. I consider CI to be a trustworthy and competent source for P1 shooting and processing.

I do plan on doing my own controlled, side-by-side tests. I will be shooting the S2 against the Hy6/LV75s, H3DII-39, H3DII-50, and P45+. I'm still looking for more cameras and am especially interested in P40+ and P65+. If anyone would like to volunteer their cameras, I'd love to have you involved in the shoot.

But, I think as you and Al saw in Seattle, we are not talking about one great shot on a tripod, stopped down, etc. The image quality extends over hundreds of pictures, almost entirely shot hand-held (and all with AF).

David
 

carstenw

Active member
Hi Carsten
If it's good . . .I'm sure you'll get there (unfortunately I really won't :()
Why will I and you won't? You are the one hanging out in Crete and all. I am sure I will have it one day, if I prioritize that way, which it is not sure at all that I will do, but maybe by the time I can afford that kind of expense, it will be called an S5, and Leica will be fighting a lawsuit from Fujifilm. First I need to move to a larger apartment, pay off 2-3 loans, and have a more secure job, and more money in the bank. I probably should also stop being a programmer and start being a dentist :) Alternatively I will get my mum to knit me a ski mask, a-la Guy.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Why will I and you won't? You are the one hanging out in Crete and all. I am sure I will have it one day, if I prioritize that way, which it is not sure at all that I will do, but maybe by the time I can afford that kind of expense, it will be called an S5, and Leica will be fighting a lawsuit from Fujifilm. First I need to move to a larger apartment, pay off 2-3 loans, and have a more secure job, and more money in the bank. I probably should also stop being a programmer and start being a dentist :)
Ah - well, the reason I won't is twofold:
1. I can't afford it
2. I wouldn't make the most of it

As for hanging out in Crete, our hotel bill for 2 for 2 weeks was €550 (we don't do it in 5 star hotels :ROTFL:)

I guess my job is secure (but is the company? :eek:)

Maybe I could be a dentist too :)
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Best question yet.

Provide the handling, ergonomics and close to the speed of a 35mm DSLR, with the image quality and file size of a MFD.

Which is why I need to try the camera before buying anything. And not in some dealer's environment, but in one like I shoot in.
Marc,

Any serious Leica Professional dealer should be providing a test drive program for potential customers of the S2. You really need to get the S2 in your hands and see the resulting files for yourself to fully appreciate it.

Speaking for ourselves, we plan on having at least 2-3 complete S2 systems available for test drive, rental, and courtesy loan. Similar to how we have run our test drive program for the M system, we will ship you the camera to use for a week on your terms. Any rental fees can be applied 100% to purchase within 30 days. We expect to have demo cameras within the next month or so.

David
 

Christopher

Active member
Ok stop here right now. The P65+ certainly does not block up shadows earlier than any other back I have seen. Nor do I believe that the S2 is better. Let's say I haven't seen prove for that.

"You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear"

Sorry but that sounds like wrong processing. I can't say for sure, but is sounds, like the default Noise Removal was on. Which in C1 I think is still the BIGGEST mistake you can make. If you do that you can get better results with every camera in Lightroom ^^


So back to the topic. I haven't read everything, but I will try to give my few point.

I have P65 + phase camera system 45,80,150 as lens and my loved LF system with 23,40,90,150

Than there is my Canon System which is a 5DMk2 with way to many lenses.

There is the Leica M9, which well is just great and fun to work with. Lenses for most work: 16-18-21, 28 2.8, 35 2.5, 28-35-50 and a 90


So now let's get back to the S2. I love how it feels and shoots. I can't say anything about it's image quality, however I can say, that it won't and CAN'T replace a P65 + LF system. So it can't replace that. So now what ? Could it replace my Canon System ? I fear not. As much as i hope for it, I fear that ISO 800 is the limit. Which just gives me one more stop than my Phase System.

So for now I'm planing to do the following:

Probably replace the 5DMk2 with a 7D. Sell most Canon lenses. So that I am left with a handful.

Wait till next year, wait until Leica can ship the 30-90 for the S2. Get a S2 System from my dealer with everything I would like and want and try it out.

At that point I can perhaps decides whether it makes sense to buy one.


At the end I want to address one point. the FUTURE.
I think it is a risk to drop that much money on a S2 System. The same money could be used for probably two generations of Phase upgrade price and in addition for a new 1DsMk4 when it comes out. So for me the price is one main point holding me back. It is a lot for something that can't do anything better really.

Now before people come at me again that the S2 will be so much better than a 1DsMk4 with 30Mp. Well really ? I have enough lenses which are good enough for 30Mp in such a small sensor. I know you won't be able to use a crappy lens like the 17-40 or 24-70, but my Leica, Zeiss and Top Canon primes will hold up pretty well. Now we come back to the file quality question. Here i have a different opinion. I don't care that much as long as i can print the size I want and it sells.

Bottom line, I would wait and will wait. I want to know what really happens before spending so much money on a new system, even if it has a RED dot. ;-)
 
Top